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Old 2011-09-25, 23:34   Link #4301
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Wait, so is it 'most mangas do not have good fight scenes' or 'I find that the mangas I have read do not have good fight scenes', Kaijo?
I could swear he said the former. Which I think is bullcrap. I would argue back that "most" of fighting in animated form were not that spectacular either. Especially when the majority relied on stills, and sliding frames. Or toss combat choregraphy in favor of penis big beams contests.

when someone says combat in animated form I hope he means something as good as this or that.
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Old 2011-09-26, 00:10   Link #4302
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I could swear he said the former. Which I think is bullcrap. I would argue back that "most" of fighting in animated form were not that spectacular either. Especially when the majority relied on stills, and sliding frames. Or toss combat choregraphy in favor of penis big beams contests.

when someone says combat in animated form I hope he means something as good as this or that.
I'm sorry, Sheba, but classic or not, the Jotaro vs. Dio fight was boring as fuck. Not the best example you could've used.
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Old 2011-09-26, 07:34   Link #4303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Wait, so is it 'most mangas do not have good fight scenes' or 'I find that the mangas I have read do not have good fight scenes', Kaijo?
The former is closer. To give an example, I'm reading the Fairy Tail manga(and watching the anime which closely follows the manga), which is kinda shonen, so there are a lot of fights. And while I like the manga, the fights there suffer the same problem: they are fairly limited in what they show, because they are black and white static panels.

The limitation is in the medium itself.

Whereas the animated version of Fairy Tail shows much more animated version of the fights, that make it easier to see how the fight goes. With a manga, you cannot get any real sense of how much time passes between each panel. To bring this back to Force, you can see it in the arguments over Deville's teleporting. We don't know how fast he was and what he did. We don't know from what directions people came in. We can't tell how fast Fate is. We're not exactly sure what kind of speed Karen used to take out Hayate Vita and Erio, and how that went down.

Are there bad animated fights, too? Of course. It's just that, generally speaking, an animated fight is going to be more animated and give you more information, thus it will be more complete and easier/better to follow.

As I said, I accept the limitation of the medium, and it's partially why I hope Force gets animated. I do like some fights in manga, but that's because we like the emotions the plot has developed in us up to the point, so it is satisfying to see it happen. But it pales in comparison to an animated fight, as far as details/information conveyed.
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Old 2011-09-26, 10:11   Link #4304
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Or maybe it's just that Force's artist doesn't really know how to draw action scenes. Not everything is 'limitations of the media'. It can just be a flaw of the story. The whole reason I said Force had bad fights was because most of them so far are anticlimaxes or pointless, which is hardly a problem shared by most manga.

Last edited by Justin_Brett; 2011-09-26 at 10:32.
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Old 2011-09-26, 10:16   Link #4305
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Or maybe it's just that Force's artist doesn't really know how to draw action scenes. Not everything is 'limitations of the media'. It can just be a flaw of the story.
Agreed on this one, we can't put the entire blame of the medium because there are various examples of greatly executed manga fights. Some of those examples are even from other Nanoha manga which only puts more on evidence Force's lacking on that area.
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Old 2011-09-26, 10:41   Link #4306
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For example, this mock fight between Signum and Nanoha could showcase it.
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Old 2011-09-26, 10:57   Link #4307
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Nothing wrong with Force's action scenes. It's easy to follow and tell what's happen but I suppose this only applies to me since I've had to deal with some really messy fight scenes like, say, every battle in Berserk
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Old 2011-09-26, 11:04   Link #4308
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I've definitely been there; JoJo is sometimes pretty incomprehensible too, just because of how the powers work.
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Old 2011-09-26, 11:10   Link #4309
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Aaaah King Crimson.... Even the translator could not make sense out of it.
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Old 2011-09-26, 11:16   Link #4310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
With a manga, you cannot get any real sense of how much time passes between each panel. To bring this back to Force, you can see it in the arguments over Deville's teleporting. We don't know how fast he was and what he did. We don't know from what directions people came in. We can't tell how fast Fate is. We're not exactly sure what kind of speed Karen used to take out Hayate Vita and Erio, and how that went down.
Animation can be just as, if not more deceptive in this regard. Heck, even live action movies aren't always as accurate. Countdowns of minutes or even seconds can take half an hour. And how often have characters in anime "moved faster than the eye can see" only for the audience to follow them just fine?

... Wow, deja vu. Been a long time since I threw that one around.
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Old 2011-09-26, 11:25   Link #4311
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5 minutes until Namek explodes!

Anyways, manga is comprised of static images, so of course action scenes aren't going to come across that well. All mangas can do is show cause and effect, point A to point B. It's up to the reader to fill in what happened in between.

We see Guts raise his sword, and in the next panel his sword is pointing down and blood sprays from the chest of his opponent. It's quite clear what just happened even if we don't see the sword actually fall.
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Old 2011-09-26, 13:42   Link #4312
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I'm starting to like Force more than Vivid despite the slow pacing of the story as it now seems to be heading into some interesting plot developments wrt Touma and the Eclipse system.
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Old 2011-09-26, 15:12   Link #4313
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
5 minutes until Namek explodes!
Classic xD

I was about to answer "are they still on Ruwella?" but fortunately the sotry have finally moved from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Anyways, manga is comprised of static images, so of course action scenes aren't going to come across that well. All mangas can do is show cause and effect, point A to point B. It's up to the reader to fill in what happened in between.
That's where the skill of the artist really matter, in depicting expressions, dynamic body language and the use of shadows and surroundings to effectively create an atmosphere. The art in Force is good but i feel the dynamics and atmosphere during abttles are lacking(those improved a bit during Ch. 19). Compare it with the aformentioned mock battle with Signum in the "After Days" special, or the fights in the MOVIE 1st manga(dynamic art, very good use of shadows, a bit exagerated facial expression but effective to depict the intentions of the combatants). ViVid is a bit better than Force on that department but i has it's flaws.

Of the three artist working in the Nanoha franchise the original(MOVIE 1st, StrikerS and A's mangas) is still the best to me qwhe it comes to fight scenes. His desings are simple but well executed.
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Old 2011-09-26, 15:30   Link #4314
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That's where the skill of the artist really matter, in depicting expressions, dynamic body language and the use of shadows and surroundings to effectively create an atmosphere.
This is why I point to Yukito Kishiro when someone ask me about a mangaka able to draw dynamic and compelling fight scenes. He also seems to be a fan of "everything being better with spinning".
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Old 2011-09-26, 20:56   Link #4315
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Well, if we're going talk about action and dialogue not always being necessary, and that sometimes all you need are facial expressions with a good artist, then I bring you the following

Spoiler:


(if you haven't done so, go read Chrono Crusade already)

On the other hand, I know that comics have serious trouble expressing their fights well. But that's why I hold Tekken Chimni, and Vinland Saga, and Soul Eater, and the Immortal Iron Fist (Busiek ftw!) in such high regards. (Even if TC is sloooooooow as hell and VS has gone on the mother of all side roads.)

So

erm

Force and poker cards. Curren is the Queen, Nanoha is the Ace, Touma would be the Jack, we're still waiting for the Joker and the King to be introduced?

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett
Isn't the Joker the wild card?
AFAIK, yup.

Last edited by Kuze; 2011-09-26 at 21:33.
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Old 2011-09-26, 21:15   Link #4316
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inb4 some stupid comment by Aki that Signum is 1

Isn't the Joker the wild card?
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Old 2011-09-26, 22:47   Link #4317
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Eclipse Drivers with a bomb in their head ?!
Wow ! Just WOW !
I wonder how S6 will take that when they face those...
All their work for capturing them alive would just go out the windom.
Can`t say I saw that one coming.
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Old 2011-09-26, 23:28   Link #4318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
inb4 some stupid comment by Aki that Signum is 1
Awww... Ninja'd xD!

Subaru is Lucky 7!
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Old 2011-09-27, 02:51   Link #4319
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Subaru is Lucky 7!
Nah, Fate is all things seven in Nanohaverse.
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Old 2011-09-27, 09:11   Link #4320
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
Nah, Fate is all things seven in Nanohaverse.
OUCH! you're right XD

*Jet Zamber'd*

...Subaru is fairly good number 6 then xD
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