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Old 2011-11-03, 15:01   Link #4421
Rising Dragon
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Where exactly is all this Book of Darkness/Tome of Cross talk coming from, anyway? Just the prologue with Reinforce? We don't even have proof the two books are even connected.
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Old 2011-11-03, 15:03   Link #4422
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Hurricane was talking out his ass, basically.
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Old 2011-11-03, 15:23   Link #4423
Akiyoshi
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Yes, the Silver Cross is more tactically viable and useful than the Book of Darkness, but so is Kerykeion, and if I were to call Kerykeion more dangerous than the Book of Darkness everyone here would be wondering what I'd been drinking.
Oh, yeah almost forgot one thing: Silver Cross is also very efficient in aginst the Book of Darkness.

Let's see:

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*tips of* The ability to absorb linker cores holding all the magical skills and knowledge of the victim, the ability to bestow these abilities on the wielder
Which around 98% of said abilities being completely usless against the master of the Silver Cross, let's continue...

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the ability to tear through the most potent defenses
The Silver Book master is able to IGNORE magical defenses entirely and effortlessly.

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the ability to spawn powerful guardians
...which are utterly useless against the soldiers created by the Silver Cross.

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the ability to absorb mages in their entirety
...one point to the Book of Darkness depending if this ability can be effective against an Eclipse Driver.

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the ability to assimilate magical technology for its own use
...another point for the BoD, i wonder if this can extend to the point to assimilate an Eclipse Driver and learn how to counter and/or adapt it's powers.

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the ability to regenerate even after complete destruction... frankly, blowing up planets is just the tip of the iceberg. And that was after it broke, imagine how powerful it was before it broke.
This is the only superior ability of the BoD over the SC and this can only be used once completed which means the pages must be completed before the master of the Silver Cross notices or they will be screwed.

The Book of Darkness have more destructive power at the end but the silver Cross have far more effective powers against various opponents including the BoD itself.
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Old 2011-11-03, 15:36   Link #4424
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Oh, yeah almost forgot one thing: Silver Cross is also very efficient in aginst the Book of Darkness.
Which is cool, but I wasn't exectly talking about a vs one another here, but more dangerous as in "dangerous to everyone."

But eh, why not. It's something different from the usual debates.

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Which around 98% of said abilities being completely usless against eh master of the Silver Cross, let's continue...
True.

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The Silver Book master is able to IGNORE magical defenses entirely and effortlessly.
Magical, yes. Non magical defenses, no. Book of Darkness doesn't care and purple lightning's them all.

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...which are utterly useless against the soldiers created by the Silver Cross.
Silver cross doesn't create soldiers. Strossek does that, and it comes with a rather high mortality rate to boot. At least the Book of Darkness has a 100% guarantee to make you feel like a king before kicking the bucket.

Which is another point for the Book of Darkness. Without a Strossek, Silver Cross is useless since there won't be an eclipse infected to wield him. And even if there is an infected, without a Strossek he's no better than the Book of Darkness. Just a mindless engine of destruction.

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...one point to the Book of Darkness depending if this ability can be effective against an Eclipse Driver.
We'll never find out, but I don't see Silver Cross pulling that one yet.

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...another point for the BoD, i wonder if this can extend to the point to assimilate an Eclipse Driver and learn how to counter and/or adapt it's powers.
Possibly. We've seen very little about this ability, but it was able to assimilate both the magical and non-magical components of an entire warship.

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This is the only superior ability of the BoD over the SC and this can only be used once completed which means the pages must be completed before the master of the Silver Cross notices or they will be screwed.
Nope, regeneration can always be used, even before completion. That's why the TSAB was unable to destroy the thing for so long. It was invincible before Hayate managed to alter the program enough to allow Reinforce her own destruction.

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The Book of Darkness have more destructive power at the end but the silver Cross have far more effective powers against various opponents including the BoD itself.
How is the Book of Darkness any less various than Silver Cross?
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Old 2011-11-03, 15:56   Link #4425
Akiyoshi
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Silver cross doesn't create soldiers. Strossek does that, and it comes with a rather high mortality rate to boot. At least the Book of Darkness has a 100% guarantee to make you feel like a king before kicking the bucket.

Which is another point for the Book of Darkness. Without a Strossek, Silver Cross is useless since there won't be an eclipse infected to wield him. And even if there is an infected, without a Strossek he's no better than the Book of Darkness. Just a mindless engine of destruction.
This is kind of a blurr spot right now because we have Curren, who is an Eclispe infected, is wielding a Silver Cross book yet there's no signs of a Strosek around her when she uses her powers who are more than enough to curbstomp Vita, the strongest of the BoD guardians in terms of raw destructive power with barely an effort(only at the cost of a Katana). So i think is safe to assume that the master of the Silver Cross will be able to easily trash the entire Wolkenritter and probably even the Materials.

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How is the Book of Darkness any less various than Silver Cross?
because for all it's abilities the Book of Darkness always lead to a single goal which is blowing itself up along with the world it resides at the moment. You can make more sophisticated plans with the Silver Cross.
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Old 2011-11-03, 16:03   Link #4426
Keroko
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This is kind of a blurr spot right now because we have Curren, who is an Eclispe infected, is wielding a Silver Cross book yet there's no signs of a Strosek around her when she uses her powers who are more than enough to curbstomp Vita, the strongest of the BoD guardians in terms of raw destructive power with barely an effort(only at the cost of a Katana). So i think is safe to assume that the master of the Silver Cross will be able to easily trash the entire Wolkenritter and probably even the Materials.
Hmm, that's true. But then again, Curren is not able to use Zero Divide, which could mean that her book is not a 'real' silver cross. Or that Zero Divide (AKA the most dangerous skill we've seen in Force so far) is not a skill of silver cross at all, but rather a skill of Thoma's. Either way, it lowers silver cross on the scale.

Though that does not change that the silver cross does not create soldiers. The only way we know of being infected is touching a Strossek. No Strossek, no infected. No infected, silver cross useless.

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because for all it's abilities the Book of Darkness always lead to a single goal which is blowing itself up along with the world it resides at the moment. You can make more sophisticated plans with the Silver Cross.
Without a Strossek or whatethe silver cross leads to "kill everything in sight." I don't see how that's any better.
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Old 2011-11-03, 16:27   Link #4427
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Hmm, that's true. But then again, Curren is not able to use Zero Divide, which could mean that her book is not a 'real' silver cross. Or that Zero Divide (AKA the most dangerous skill we've seen in Force so far) is not a skill of silver cross at all, but rather a skill of Thoma's. Either way, it lowers silver cross on the scale.
Curren ahdn't sated to not be able to use the attack but i'm not run that theory because what i think is that the ability is more probably related to Tohma and his "Zero Driver" status, apparently a Zero Driver is a rarity even amoing Eclipse infected, tough the only other Book wielding Eclipse Driver we've seen aside of Tohma is Curren herself, also she has this aura of "only fighting with 40% of her power" at the moment, i wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to be another Zero Driver, but back to the Divide Zero thing, i think that's probably Tohma's way of express his power as a Zero Driver and each one have his/her own way to explit said power, of course it's all speculation at this point.

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Though that does not change that the silver cross does not create soldiers. The only way we know of being infected is touching a Strossek. No Strossek, no infected. No infected, silver cross useless.
We didn't know how Stroseks are created either, what if the the Silver Cross have something to do with their creation? We know that Strosek have the objetive of spreading the virus but we don't know if that's the only method. Dego and Marty were raiding a village in order to find survivors by spreading the palce with Eclipse virus yet we didn't see "Fifth" doing anything besides reacting with Dego. Also where's the Strosek that infected the Huckebein? Cypha and Veyron apparently are councsious of what a Strosek is but Arnage seems surprised about Lily's and Fifth appearance indicating that probably she never met a Strosek Reactor before.

We don't know if Silver Cross can spead the virus but oh boy that book is good at controlling and enhacing it.

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Without a Strossek or whatethe silver cross leads to "kill everything in sight." I don't see how that's any better.
Being a reliable tool to control superpowerful magic-immune beings as also gathering/creating humanoid reactors whose destructive power can be guided towards specific targets and used wisely instead of blowing up a planet with it's master and everthing he knows included? I think Silver Cross is a more manageable and less jeopardied option.
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Old 2011-11-03, 16:37   Link #4428
Keroko
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Curren ahdn't sated to not be able to use the attack but i'm not run that theory because what i think is that the ability is more probably related to Tohma and his "Zero Driver" status, apparently a Zero Driver is a rarity even amoing Eclipse infected, tough the only other Book wielding Eclipse Driver we've seen aside of Tohma is Curren herself, also she has this aura of "only fighting with 40% of her power" at the moment, i wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to be another Zero Driver, but back to the Divide Zero thing, i think that's probably Tohma's way of express his power as a Zero Driver and each one have his/her own way to explit said power, of course it's all speculation at this point.
They make a pretty big deal of him, suggesting that they don't have one yet even.

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We didn't know how Stroseks are created either, what if the the Silver Cross have something to do with their creation?
A circular argument, since I could just as easily claim it's the Strossek's that create the silver cross. What we know is this: The Strossek's infect people with eclipse, the silver cross has shown no ability to do this as of yet.

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Being a reliable tool to control superpowerful magic-immune beings as also gathering/creating humanoid reactors whose destructive power can be guided towards specific targets and used wisely instead of blowing up a planet with it's master and everthing he knows included? I think Silver Cross is a more manageable and less jeopardied option.
Reliable? It makes you to batshit insane unless you have a Strossek or whatever the Hucks use to stay sane. That's not a reliable weapon. And again, the silver cross has shown no sign of creating anything. Let's not attribute points before they are earned, shall we?
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Old 2011-11-03, 16:50   Link #4429
Akiyoshi
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They make a pretty big deal of him, suggesting that they don't have one yet even.
Curiously, Curren not. She didn't even react to Tohma as if he was a "main priority" and takes his joining for granted. when she appears she was like "he's not that important, we have more important things to do". Ignoring a Zero Driver like that talks about Curren's status in the power scale.

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A circular argument, since I could just as easily claim it's the Strossek's that create the silver cross. What we know is this: The Strossek's infect people with eclipse, the silver cross has shown no ability to do this as of yet.
Fair enough, just don't discredit the possibility of other means of infecton since there's a lot of plot holes with that "Strosek is the only mean of infection" theory.

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Reliable? It makes you to batshit insane unless you have a Strossek or whatever the Hucks use to stay sane. That's not a reliable weapon. And again, the silver cross has shown no sign of creating anything. Let's not attribute points before they are earned, shall we?
Curren seems to be doing quite well with her Book(well, as good as a socipathic murder can do xDU). I know the silver Cross have a lot of issues but most of them are less unpredictable than "trick the "master" into filling the tank of a world-ending bomb" xDU.
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Old 2011-11-03, 16:58   Link #4430
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Curiously, Curren not. She didn't even react to Tohma as if he was a "main priority" and takes his joining for granted. when she appears she was like "he's not that important, we have more important things to do". Ignoring a Zero Driver like that talks about Curren's status in the power scale.
Point.

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Fair enough, just don't discredit the possibility of other means of infecton since there's a lot of plot holes with that "Strosek is the only mean of infection" theory.
I'm not saying there isn't some other form of infection, just that I'd like to see proof of the theory before using it in other debates. Theorycrafting is A-OK, using said theories as facts in other debates is where I draw the line.

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Curren seems to be doing quite well with her Book(well, as good as a socipathic murder can do xDU). I know the silver Cross have a lot of issues but most of them are less unpredictable than "trick the "master" into filling the tank of a world-ending bomb" xDU.
Yes, hence the 'whatever the Hucks use to stay sane.' People without whatever they use go batshit insane. Point in case: Thoma.

And that still does not stop the whole 'need to kill' the eclipse virus one needs to even wield a silver cross tosses at you. The book of darkness may kill the user and cause worlds to asplode, but it doesn't force the user to do anything. Silver cross does, on several levels.

Ironically, this makes the Book of Darkness a better controllable weapon than silver cross from a certain point of view. The Book of Darkness only goes out of control at the final stage, but remains a perfectly controllable tool until then. Wielding the silver cross means a loss of control for life.
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Old 2011-11-03, 17:14   Link #4431
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I'm not saying there isn't some other form of infection, just that I'd like to see proof of the theory before using it in other debates. Theorycrafting is A-OK, using said theories as facts in other debates is where I draw the line.
Agree with this, i was just attempting to make a point there.


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Yes, hence the 'whatever the Hucks use to stay sane.' People without whatever they use go batshit insane. Point in case: Thoma.
Makes me wonder how the Bible of the Silver Cross managed to survive al these years, i mean, the BoD have the excuse of being virtually indestructible and passing from world to world, how a weapon that drives you insane and ultimately leads to an untimely death manage to even survive it's first ten years?

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And that still does not stop the whole 'need to kill' the eclipse virus one needs to even wield a silver cross tosses at you. The book of darkness may kill the user and cause worlds to asplode, but it doesn't force the user to do anything. Silver cross does, on several levels.
I wonder how controlled an Eclispe Driver can be with enough slaughtering, we know that one of the methods to retain sanity is to kill people, so in theory Tohma must be able to regain some sort of intelligent self-control after enough death and destruction, of course we won't know how deranged his mind will be by that point.

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Ironically, this makes the Book of Darkness a better controllable weapon than silver cross from a certain point of view. The Book of Darkness only goes out of control at the final stage, but remains a perfectly controllable tool until then. Wielding the silver cross means a loss of control for life.
Probably, if a bit crueller, at least you know what you're going into with the Silver Cross, the Book of Darkness is programed to manipulate the master and even the guardians into thinking something awesome will happen once the apges are filled ...welll, it's indeed awesome ...in a sense xDU.
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Old 2011-11-03, 17:32   Link #4432
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Makes me wonder how the Bible of the Silver Cross managed to survive al these years, i mean, the BoD have the excuse of being virtually indestructible and passing from world to world, how a weapon that drives you insane and ultimately leads to an untimely death manage to even survive it's first ten years?
Death of the wielder does not mean death of the weapon. Besides, aren't all the books we're seeing so far copies?

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I wonder how controlled an Eclispe Driver can be with enough slaughtering, we know that one of the methods to retain sanity is to kill people, so in theory Tohma must be able to regain some sort of intelligent self-control after enough death and destruction, of course we won't know how deranged his mind will be by that point.

Probably, if a bit crueller, at least you know what you're going into with the Silver Cross, the Book of Darkness is programed to manipulate the master and even the guardians into thinking something awesome will happen once the apges are filled ...welll, it's indeed awesome ...in a sense xDU.
I wouldn't exactly call the silver cross less cruel. Just look at Thoma, the guy was a virtual wreck until he was saved. Imagine if he wasn't, and he was forced to kill someone and regained his sanity. Then he'd have to live with himself killing people. And eventually, the urge to kill would grow again, and he'd have to kill again. And again. And again.

It's a cycle that only ends with your death. A loss of control greater than the Book of Darkness. At least with the Book of Darkness, everything ends with the bang. And the master even gets to live the rest of his life in an eternal dream, oblivious to the destruction.
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Old 2011-11-03, 17:43   Link #4433
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Death of the wielder does not mean death of the weapon. Besides, aren't all the books we're seeing so far copies?
Yup, copies that make incredibly fearsome weapons, the Stroseks arguably are also copies of the original reactor which brings us a little lampshad at how unbelievably powerful the originals must be.



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I wouldn't exactly call the silver cross less cruel. Just look at Thoma, the guy was a virtual wreck until he was saved. Imagine if he wasn't, and he was forced to kill someone and regained his sanity. Then he'd have to live with himself killing people. And eventually, the urge to kill would grow again, and he'd have to kill again. And again. And again.

It's a cycle that only ends with your death. A loss of control greater than the Book of Darkness. At least with the Book of Darkness, everything ends with the bang. And the master even gets to live the rest of his life in an eternal dream, oblivious to the destruction.
Well, this point has more to do with one's personal views and opinion about what's worse.
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Old 2011-11-03, 17:54   Link #4434
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Yup, copies that make incredibly fearsome weapons, the Stroseks arguably are also copies of the original reactor which brings us a little lampshad at how unbelievably powerful the originals must be.
Wonder if we'll ever get to see them.

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Well, this point has more to do with one's personal views and opinion about what's worse.
Hmm, true, but I don't think there's a lot of people who would find "single painful moment you aren't even aware of because you're quickly consumed in a paradise-like dream" worse than "continuously repeating torment you are perfectly aware of but can't do anything about, with the only exit being your death."
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Old 2011-11-06, 00:45   Link #4435
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Ehh yea so I finally caught up with this and yea.....Curren = OH MY GOD HAWTNESS!!!

Quite liking this still but I think it could do with abit more of Nanoha and Fate.
They are after all my favorite characters of the series, along with Hayate but we got enough of her atm.

Interesting to see who these other Hucks(?) will be.
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Old 2011-11-24, 22:24   Link #4436
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From what I understand of Higa Yukari's twitter, there'll be a chapter of Force this month.
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Old 2011-11-28, 03:59   Link #4437
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From what I understand of Higa Yukari's twitter, there'll be a chapter of Force this month.
That's good news.
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Old 2011-11-28, 06:34   Link #4438
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Finally. It's time to see the turning point of this series.
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Old 2011-11-28, 06:38   Link #4439
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It's a loooooooong turn as far as i can see xD
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Old 2011-11-28, 18:44   Link #4440
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Yeah there's a chapter. Spoiler info should be coming in soon, people are posting about the magazine issue in the 2ch spoiler thread. Some stuff about Yuuno, but I can't tell if it's Force-related or related to the other stuff in this issue (there's a huge section on the A's Movie, among other things), so I won't post it.
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