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Old 2011-02-17, 19:33   Link #441
itanshi1
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i was arguing that fate's blade didn't crack because it is non magical :P
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:34   Link #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
eh AEC... Magic blade...
Not quite. Where I believe the difference to be, is that most devices have magic flowing through them constantly, helping the mage regulate their magic, and using the magic in various attacks.

An AEC blade like Fate's would only have magic form the shape by pulling the parts from subspace, then empty the device of magic so it can't be delinked. Baridche is essentially a hard, but dumb, bladed weapon. Otherwise, why doesn't Cypha shatter Bardiche like she did with Levanteinn?

The only conclusion I can draw is: she can't, because there is no magic particles within it to blow apart. There's no gas in the can to explode.

Edit: Just saw your response, so I suppose we more or less agree on how things go.
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:48   Link #443
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Fate's new device isn't an AEC weapon, it's a 5th generation device.
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:52   Link #444
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Harder than usual, I may agree with. But what other evidence makes you think Cypha has super hard skin?
The fact of how she state that "bladed weapons are useless againt us" while blocking Laevateinn?

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No watch Signum hit Cypha later. The Blade goes in and is stopped... then shatters into many pieces. It doesn't just break, but shatters in all directions. To me, it looks more like it was blown apart.
There are various reasons for a a blade being blowed apart other than "a Huckebein did it", maybe is the sheer force of the attack combined with the fact of the sword being already damaged. It also could be rule of cool. you know, i'll block your sword, then a dramatic pause, then your sword shatter all over the place. It's not that rare(Android #18 do that to Future Trunks's sword during the Cell Saga on DBZ).

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And if you'll notice later in the fight aboard the ship, nothing like that happens. Fate is fighting with her AEC mode and successfully cutting Cypha; there is no shattering. Their bodies may be tough, but not super-hard. If they were, they wouldn't be cut so much.
If you call sucessfully cutting to those little scars on Cypha's face then yeah. Also take the fact that at the moment Bardiche already received the 5th Gen upgrade and he becomes a sword with energy powered blades, powered blades that Cypha can't de-link, which is probably why Bardiche can open trough Cypha's skin. I think the toughness and durability of their bodies have more to do with being reacted/un-reacted than a willing activation. Also explains why Revolver Knuckle wasn't "blown apart" by Veyron.
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:55   Link #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
The fact of how she state that "bladed weapons are useless againt us" while blocking Laevateinn?
If they truly were useless, she wouldn't have been cut. So I'm forced to see it more as a boast.

Quote:
If you call sucessfully cutting to those little scars on Cypha's face then yeah. Also take the fact that at the moment Bardiche already received the 5th Gen upgrade and he becomes a sword with energy powered blades, powered blades that Cypha can't de-link, which is probably why Bardiche can open trough Cypha's skin. I think the toughness and durability of their bodies have more to do with being reacted/un-reacted than a willing activation.
Bardiche's blades look more solid to me. There are definitive edges to them, and she's actively blocking with them, which is something you can't do with an energy blade, despite what you may see in Star Wars.
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:57   Link #446
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Bardiche's blades are made of magic. Her Force Next has been translated so you can read about it there.
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Old 2011-02-17, 20:01   Link #447
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Huh, so they are going in with a magic blade, despite the Huck's stated ability to delink magic, and anything formed by magic.
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Old 2011-02-17, 20:06   Link #448
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If they truly were useless, she wouldn't have been cut. So I'm forced to see it more as a boast.
Pribably she was refering to magical ones but still, she made her point with Laevateinn.

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Bardiche's blades look more solid to me. There are definitive edges to them, and she's actively blocking with them, which is something you can't do with an energy blade, despite what you may see in Star Wars.
Energy POWERED Blades, there is a difference. i also look at thenm a solid blade but powered by an energy field(made of raw unlinked magic accordsing to Fate's NEXT design). In theory is said energy what allows the blade to penetrate the skin.

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Bardiche's blades are made of magic. Her Force Next has been translated so you can read about it there.
Mhhh.... the Force NEXT design explicity states that? i need to check, they're look pretty solid to me.

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Huh, so they are going in with a magic blade, despite the Huck's stated ability to delink magic, and anything formed by magic.
Anything formed by "linked mana" to be specific, the 5th Gen can use magic iin a de-linked state so the delinking funcions are unable to stop it(that's what it sounds more plausible and actual physical blade covered by raw magic than magical constructed ones).
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Old 2011-02-17, 20:29   Link #449
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Too lazy to transcribe, so I cut out the text bits

Spoiler for new Bardiche:


So it seems basically it wasn't affected by the divider because it was designed not to be =/
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Old 2011-02-17, 20:39   Link #450
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Meh, weirdly stated, and a plot device, basically. I'll go with the theory that the internal magic storage is "shielded" against delinking effects. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: extra materials sure make things awkward at times.
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Old 2011-02-17, 20:44   Link #451
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Well, I kinda got the impression that since the magic is stored in the device directly, it doesn't go through the linking process and thus there's nothing to de-link. Or something.
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Old 2011-02-17, 20:44   Link #452
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Sounds like an efficiency upgrade. If delinking takes concentration, then they'd be wasting their time trying to decode this model or as Raiser said^
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Old 2011-02-17, 20:52   Link #453
Akiyoshi
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It didn't state any specifical about the blades, tough, but as a resume the 5th Gen device is still able to produce some magic effects even under heavy Anti-Magic conditions(but not as strong as if where into normal conditions), thus allowign the user to still using it's magic somehow without being de-linked.

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Meh, weirdly stated, and a plot device, basically. I'll go with the theory that the internal magic storage is "shielded" against delinking effects. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: extra materials sure make things awkward at times.
I agree in this. It's more or less inconsistent why this can operate under "magic cancellation" other than "it's designed to do that" but well, at least i like to see some attempts to still give the mages the opportunity to still be mages xD.
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Old 2011-02-17, 21:25   Link #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Well, I kinda got the impression that since the magic is stored in the device directly, it doesn't go through the linking process and thus there's nothing to de-link. Or something.
That's not quite how things go. Particles link together to form more complex structures; it's why you're a human being. If your particles were de-linked, you'd cease to exist. If magic particles don't link, they they can't form anything. The hydrocarbons in gasoline need to link together in order for it be effective as a fuel. You don't blow up the fuel before putting it in your tank.

In short, de-linking means separating the particles, and once separated, they are effectively nothing.

Granted, this is all magic, but it's an incredibly awkward way to go about things.
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Old 2011-02-17, 21:29   Link #455
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If not made from magic, it must be made of liquid metal then.
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Old 2011-02-17, 22:10   Link #456
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I still don't get why no character even thinks to use a variety of Stardust Fall to, say, lob Tungsten rods (just store them in hammerspace). Even if it gets intercepted by anti-magic midway it's still a 'real' projectile (not one created by magic) flying at relativistic speed...

I guess it would be too much to expect someone making a spell that fires real laser beams instead of magical ones...
I thought of that, actually. Maybe a mage who fires steel balls hidden by a fire spell. He or she lobs it at, say, Fortis, who sneers and lets it hit him...and oops, now he has a super-heated (they can't negate something being hot, can they?) lodged in his chest. Better get it out quick - oops, it ripped out a bunch of flesh around it, and they just shot more while you did that!

Really, there's tons of ways to fight these guys that still involve using magic. It's just that, other than Caro, no-one in Section Six can do them. And they have to be the protagonists.

Complaining aside, you know who I feel bad for that probably aren't going to get mentioned at all? The Devices. Raising Heart's been with Nanoha for more than ten years, they've fought through everything together, and now she can't help her master whatsoever. Same for everyone besides Bardiche. It kinda sucks.
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Old 2011-02-17, 22:24   Link #457
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Too lazy to transcribe, so I cut out the text bits

Spoiler for new Bardiche:


So it seems basically it wasn't affected by the divider because it was designed not to be =/
You know, arguments aside over whether it makes sense that this works under the apparent rules of the setting, I seriously loved that last paragraph. "Becoming a mainstream approach for illegal weapons"!
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Old 2011-02-17, 22:53   Link #458
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Honestly, I think criminals should have realised that anti-magic is effective against magic a hell of a lot sooner.
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Old 2011-02-17, 22:56   Link #459
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Well, don't a lot of criminals also use magic, logically? Probably takes some finesse to set it up without it also affecting you.
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Old 2011-02-17, 23:19   Link #460
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Anti-magic also seems to take a decent tech level, considering Jail. And especially considering it didn't really exist before Jail, so no one invented it. I wouldn't think it would be something easy to do. But I can easily imagine Jail selling the tech to others after his peace conference demonstration, so it would spread out from there.

The only other anti-magic are Eclipse-infected, and we don't know how long they've been about. We don't even know how the virus is transmitted. Possibly the reason the Bureau hasn't been going after them, is that they've been operating outside Bureau space, and for whatever reason, the Hucks decided not to take any missions requiring contact with the Bureau (or at least, were able to cover their tracks well).

It was only the odd survivor or two of the town massacres that even begun to point the finger at Eclipse-infected people.

So anyway, since anti-magic didn't really exist as a threat before Jail, the Bureau's magic was sufficient for its needs. And Justing Brett above hits a fair point; we don't know exactly how many rogue mages out there are functioning as criminals, but odds are that some are. One was involved in an incident Regius was complaining about to Zest.
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