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Old 2011-12-20, 00:46   Link #5041
Justin_Brett
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I said they were similar to the Wolkenritter because they are a group of villains who do the things they do because of circumstance, and are together because of their leader, who they have a great deal of loyalty for. I never said they were the exact same thing, because I'd be a fucking idiot for it.
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Old 2011-12-20, 00:55   Link #5042
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Even that much is superficial and not enough to support the claim that Tsuzuki is trying to copy the forumla of A's.
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:03   Link #5043
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Well trying to convince you of anything is like pulling teeth, so what can I say.
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:26   Link #5044
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The lot of you are being like goats butting horns right now. You and Tiresias are determined to tell everyone else that Force is crap and a copycat, and Raiser and Keroko are trying to tell you that's not the case, and you just shoot down their explanations with your own explanations, regardless of how ridiculous they sound when it happens.

We all get the point already. So what's the point of doing this dance again? I mean, really, you're just wasting your time, the lot of you. Nobody's opinions on Force are going to change any time soon.
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:42   Link #5045
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I'm a reasonable person that can be persuaded by strong arguments. But there just isn't a strong arguement for "Force is using A's formula." Even if there was it's not like that would convince me that that's somehow a bad thing.
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Old 2011-12-20, 01:54   Link #5046
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Even if it's not taking ideas from As, which it is, it would still be phoning it in. There's no way a new series would be selling this well if this was the best it could do.
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Old 2011-12-20, 02:28   Link #5047
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I just happen to prefer the greater changes Nanoha brought; removal of stock footage attacks from magical girl anime in exchange for actual battles, growing girls up into women and following their lives, and introducing an actual universe that showcases just what it's like for magical people to form a society.
Nanoha's real change was that it was full-fledged fantasy setting disguised as a "magical girl in a mundane world" setting. Nanoha is actually more comparable to the Negima series rather than any magical girl series. In both, you have a splinter from a magical world introduced to a mundane world. The presence of magic starts growing from that splinter. Then the characters are taken to the magical world where the splinter came from, where they can now use their magic openly!
The biggest difference at present is, the magical world was only a lengthy visit for Negima while it's a permanent move for Nanoha.

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Yes, I'll grant Madoka's greatest contribution to the magical girl genre was a magical mascot that wasn't all he seemed (even though we all knew that by episode 2)
Do I need to remind you who kept insisting Kyubei "wasn't evil" because his implied not-niceness meant there had to be a twist?
And you just keep trying to downplay what Madoka did in order to shore up your argument that it wasn't all that great. Madoka took all that nice about being a magical girl (the mascot, the trasfomation, the powers, the fellow magical girls, etc) and turned them against the magical girls themselves. In other MG shows, there may have been villians that were "serious" to the point of killing people irrevocably, but can you give me another show where the decision to become an MG is what destroys the girls as MGs?
I know you past record. If you say Mai-Hime as you did in the past, I will slap you. You might as well call Highlander a superhero title if you call Mai-Hime a magical girl series.

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So I'm disappointed it didn't live up to its (hyped) potential.
Madoka's JMAF Animation Division Grand Prize says you're wrong.
From your posts after Madoka's ep8, it's more like you were butthurt because the show wasn't going in the direction you predicted, and it had the gall to do so in way that pleased the rest of the audience. You didn't start slinging mud until the anti-Kyubei guys could point to his confession in ep8.
You made arguments around semantics, called on plot holes that were reasonably covered and came up with an "alternative method" that actually has a bigger plot hole and thought it was better!
Despite your accusations of Madoka fans in the its subforum, we matched your arguments with our own. Had we been the "rabid fanboys" you made us out to be and the show as weak as you believed, that wouldn't have been possible.
You want to continue this? Come back to the Madoka forum. If you'll be civil, I'm sure the mods won't ban you for just speaking your mind.

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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Is it possible to take the current discussion (Force comparison to A's & Madoka) to either the general discussion thread or the Madoka sub-forum?
Kaijo tells me he made a deal with the mods to stay out of the Madoka forums. So he takes his chance to talk about Madoka where he finds it. As a mod yourself, I'm sure you would know more about that than me.
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Old 2011-12-20, 03:02   Link #5048
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
There's no way a new series would be selling this well if this was the best it could do.
So you're saying if it wasn't phoning it in, then it would have worse sales?

Even if it was phoning it in, which it isn't, Vivid is phoning it in way more so if you're going to critisize anything, critisize Vivid.
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Old 2011-12-20, 03:08   Link #5049
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I'm saying if this was a new franchise instead of something they know a lot of people already like, it would do far, far worse.

And you already do that perfectly, why should I bother? I won't argue that it doesn't, in addition to some other flaws, but it's still less shameful about it than here in a sense.
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Old 2011-12-20, 03:28   Link #5050
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In what sense? Vivid just throws naked girls and flashy fights at you while Force is at least trying to tell a story.
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Old 2011-12-20, 03:34   Link #5051
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Key word being 'tries'. They're both not very good at it, but ViVid has better characters and fighting, somehow.
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Old 2011-12-20, 03:37   Link #5052
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And in what way is Force not telling a story?
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Old 2011-12-20, 04:50   Link #5053
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Equating the Wolkenritter to the Huckebien? Uh oh, Aki's going to be pissed
Actually i startted to see the similitudes, the Huckebein family is like the Wolkneritter on crack. Family Dynamic? Check. Unnatural toughness? Check. Belkan/Book related powers? Check. They're similar in varopus ways but Tsuzuki attempted to amp the new versions by making them stronger, tougher and badder than the originals with mixed results.

Also some of them being blatant eveil archetypes of Wolkenritter members don't help things at all with the worst offenders being, of course, Curren and Cypha. They even have this "Leader and sub-group of 4 warriors ensemble". As Curren usually avoid direct fight and Cypha, Arnage, Veron and Deville are the other mainly battle-oriented members of the family with Stella being support and fortis being the annoying smart guy.

Position on the Battlefield in comparision with the wolks:

Cypha = Signum (i really need to explain this one?)
Deville = Vita (Berserkers with increased resilence and a big weapon)
Veyron = Zafira (The "weak but skilled" smart fighter)
Arnage = Shamal (Aru is the less close-combat oriented of the four also the more sentimental of the bunch).

They even have now their own "Reinforce/Rein Zwei" in Fifth xDU.

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Originally Posted by Zero Hurricane View Post
And the worst again is: too many Villain Sue is seen. Most villains often steal Thoma's appearance portion
Yeah, that's a big problem. I wasn't able to see Tohma as a proper "protagonist" the past year because he barely do main character stuff xDU. Instead, he spent almost a whole year being a living MacGuffin for the heroes/villains to get and the focus was totally absorbed by the Huckebein family, for a moment i even think it was "The Huckebein Family Show - presenting Nanoha and friends" instead of Nanoha FORCE xDU. At that point, saying that tohma is the protagonist is almost like saying the Dragon Balls are the protagonist of Dragon Ball Z when we know those are horrible lies.

Fortunately, Tohma is doing better work as a main character right know(if a bit su-ish) so let's wait and see what happens with him. Like i've said he's not a bad character per se it's only the circunstances around him that suck.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So, Vita should change her entire combat style then? Funny, because when Erio did that, people complained.
Because Erio's new weapon didn't make any sense with what we know about his combat style and just got some of us a headache when we saw him biting the dust.

Also Graf Eisen is much more dynamic than War Hammer on close combat, it have a variety of tricks, size changing and alternate modes to adapt Vita to various situations. War Hammer don't have anything of that, it's just a bigass Missile on a stick.

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Yeah, that's another attitude I encounter often. People just don't dig giant robots Just look at the lack of them in western culture: outside of Transformers you don't see any big American mecha shows.
Hey! Big Guy & Rusty was a great show! I love the opening song xD!

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Now if you want a story that was all light-hearted, took a darker turn and still have the hero emerging as a better man and BE GOOD AT THIS, you have Trigun. How could you guys forget about Trigun? Something like what happened to Vash is something I WANT to see happen to Nanoha or/and Fate, just to see what they are made of. Good old Kurt and his assessment, "Be a Sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them—in order that the reader may see what they are made of."
Cypha already show us what Signum is made of. The answer is: Play-Doh.

But yeah on the topic of "what if Madoka's writer do Nanoha" i'll guess we at least could have well aplied dark elements and not just half-baked "dark twists" like in Force. If they'll took a "strong" character and make as if it's going to die, better as well go through with it instead of chickening out at the last moment. That's pretty lame.

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I'd agree if Touma was seriously different than any of the other protagonists, but that simply isn't the case. His gender is something different, but it's certainly not something that really affects the story. He might as well be a girl for all it matters.
Half agreed. Tohma do showed some different dynamics but only superficially, in escence he's still your typical Nanoha protagonist(except, again, with more su-ish traits). I'm agree that he could be a girl and changes on the story will be minimal. His banana don't have a big influence on the story xDU.

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Even if it was phoning it in, which it isn't, Vivid is phoning it in way more so if you're going to critisize anything, critisize Vivid.
The point is that Vivid, despite being big pile of cliches, is doing a better job at entertaining than Force.

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
In what sense? Vivid just throws naked girls and flashy fights at you while Force is at least trying to tell a story.
Yeah but even while i myself don't like the excess of fanservice i admit the flashy fights are AWESOME! Nanoha is made of flashy fights! which Force apparently is trying to forget which is a bad thing. Veyronand Arnage VS. Dego and Marty was awesome because it returned a bit to that flashy style, and it was also one of the very few well executed thing of the *sigh* Signum VS. Cypha fight(this is like a boomerang, isn't?).

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
And in what way is Force not telling a story?
The problem isn't the existence of the story. It's in "how" the story is being telled xDU.

...

PHEW! so much activity in just a single day of abscence xDU.
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Old 2011-12-20, 05:04   Link #5054
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post


Cypha already show us what Signum is made of. The answer is: Play-Doh.
Watch Trigun and you'll remember what I mean, especially from when Legato show up.

Also watch Ga-Rei Zero and imagine what would happen if, i.e, Fate, at the peak of her happiness, get shit hit the fan as badly as Yomi.

Quote:
But yeah on the topic of "what if Madoka's writer do Nanoha" i'll guess we at least could have well aplied dark elements and not just half-baked "dark twists" like in Force. If they'll took a "strong" character and make as if it's going to die, better as well go through with it instead of chickening out at the last moment. That's pretty lame.
Read Fate/Zero, play Saya No Uta, that should show you what Gen can do. I know because I played Saya no Uta and my mind has yet to recover. If anyone implies again that this writer is a hack after playing Saya no Uta, expect a drop kick in the face should I ever meet him in person.

And what Gen would do if he gets his hands on Nanoha. Watch Sayaka arc in Madoka, or watch Ga-Rei Zero. And imagine something much worse like a slice of Berserk or Gantz thrown in it. I mean if magic can exist, who can say if abominations like God's Hand can not exist? After all, for a part of light, an equal part of darkness is cast.
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Old 2011-12-20, 05:07   Link #5055
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Nanoha would reach R-18 or something... Maybe.
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Old 2011-12-20, 05:08   Link #5056
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Nanoha would reach R-18 or something... Maybe.
Only if you grew up watching nothing but My Little Pony, otherwise Ga-Rei Zero is very watchable, unless you cannot stomach rise & FALL stories.
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Old 2011-12-20, 05:10   Link #5057
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Also watch Ga-Rei Zero and imagine what would happen if, i.e, Fate, at the peak of her happiness, get shit hit the fan as badly as Yomi.
I already watched Ga-Rei Zero it was incredibly sad yet incredibly awesome too. If Signum's fall were handled with such mastery i wouldn't be whining here right now. Instead, i will be moping in tears out of sadness and amazement for the pain and beauty of her tragedy xD!

In fact, i already posted something about the relation between Signum and Yomi on the previous Force thread, but better not talk deeper into it, the results weren't nice xDU.

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Only if you grew up watching nothing but My Little Pony, otherwise Ga-Rei Zero is very watchable, unless you cannot stomach rise & FALL stories.
I can stomach if those are well written wich fortunately was Yomi's case. I feel deep pity for her but that don't undermine how Badass she is in the slightiest.
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Old 2011-12-20, 07:01   Link #5058
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And with the way their running around unchecked, surely MS6 has time to spare
2 months have passed since the last battle. Obviously they have.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Eh, no. What I meant is that there's no proof that Warhammer can be used for combat against Huckebein troopers, yet.
It's effectiveness against Dividers has already been demonstrated, Vita is an expert at using hammers. A little mathcount tells us yes.

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Has it ever stated that Reacting automatically activates the anti-magic? From the way it's shown, Reacting seems more like an "open weapons bay" rather than "launch weapon"
Volume 7, page 23. Yes, reacting activates the anti-magic.

Using that information, the fact that Bardiche survived a direct hit from a reacted eclipse infected without a scratch, whereas Leavantine shattered merely through hitting an eclipse infected body, the success of the weapon cannot be denied.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The lot of you are being like goats butting horns right now. You and Tiresias are determined to tell everyone else that Force is crap and a copycat, and Raiser and Keroko are trying to tell you that's not the case, and you just shoot down their explanations with your own explanations, regardless of how ridiculous they sound when it happens.

We all get the point already. So what's the point of doing this dance again? I mean, really, you're just wasting your time, the lot of you. Nobody's opinions on Force are going to change any time soon.
Ironically, I was the one who first used the "it's like A's" argument. However, when I did that, I never meant the season in it's entirety, I merely picked certain elements people were complaining about. Such as the heroes losing to the bad guys. This was (and still is) a major complaint, which had me scratching my head and going "wait, every season of Nanoha does this. Why is it so bad in Force?"

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I'm saying if this was a new franchise instead of something they know a lot of people already like, it would do far, far worse..
Debatable. Most complaints stem from failed expectations. A new franchise would not have those expectations.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I can stomach if those are well written wich fortunately was Yomi's case. I feel deep pity for her but that don't undermine how Badass she is in the slightiest.
Dunno, I find surviving a sword to the gut after being sliced open head to shoulder twice to be pretty badass.
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Old 2011-12-20, 07:20   Link #5059
Akiyoshi
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It's effectiveness against Dividers has already been demonstrated, Vita is an expert at using hammers. A little mathcount tells us yes.
An expert using graf eisen. so far we only saw her hit a goddam big target with War Hammer, the effectiveness at close range fighting is still unknown. and if we take Strike Cannon as a reference, well, i wonder...

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Volume 7, page 23. Yes, reacting activates the anti-magic.

Using that information, the fact that Bardiche survived a direct hit from a reacted eclipse infected without a scratch, whereas Leavantine shattered merely through hitting an eclipse infected body, the success of the weapon cannot be denied.
Ironically that also makes an intersting clarification. Laevatein is only damaged after cutting through Cypha's flesh, blood and bones, and finally destroyed by Cypha's reacted body's elbow, her Reacted Divider has few to do with it(only cutting bits of the already weakened structure of Laevatein). this is reinforced by Signum's recent fight in Ch. 20 as it was confirmed that tohma indeed fully reacted and fighted her with Laevatein(and Agito!) somehow able to keep up with Tohma's divider and Eclipse-powered attacks.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
"wait, every season of Nanoha does this. Why is it so bad in Force?"
Because previously a sense of balance existed that is absent in Force.

Season 1: Fate pwned Nanoha but it was because of inexperience, solved as she started to show prowess on following encounters.

A's: Vita pwned Nanoha but got near defeated by a not-upgraded Fate and Arf. Signum recognizes Fate as a worthy opponent right from the start despite the advantage in weapons/experience.

StrikerS: The numbers are carefull as they know of the awesome feats of the heroes so they make good use of planning and strategy to deal structural damage to their organization/morale and strike pivotal points of their strategy(Deed, Otto and an army of drones taking down the defensive wall of Shamal/Zafira; Cinque blowing up generator, etc...).

SSX: Mariage have the power in numbers and individually they go Kamikaze if faced by an un conquerable opponent.

...

Force: Huckebein/Tohma are better than the heroes, hands down.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Debatable. Most complaints stem from failed expectations. A new franchise would not have those expectations.
Despite my arguing i agree with this, it's the reason i say Force could have worked better as a new, standalone series instead as an extension of the Nanoha franchise, even now the old cast feels out of place.

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Dunno, I find surviving a sword to the gut after being sliced open head to shoulder twice to be pretty badass.
Yeah well, i'm still waiting for the second half of the awesome feat. Yomi got ambushed and left paraplegic without a chance to fight back which only amped up the tragedy but also justifies her "defeat" the second half comes in that she rises of the bed and started massive curbstomp left and right. And i really doubt Tsuzuki would allow Signum to do that on his beloved Huckebeins xDU.
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Old 2011-12-20, 07:35   Link #5060
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
An expert using graf eisen.
Which is a giant warhammer...

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Because previously a sense of balance existed that is absent in Force.
What balance? Nanoha and Fate got utterly smashed by the Wolkies. Yeah, they got a few minor scratches in (against Vita only by double-teaming if we're going to nitpick) but that's the same as Signum chopping Cypha's arm of (which outright trumps Fate's 'giving Signum a minor bruise).

Seriously, there is little difference. Good guys get defeated, they get stronger or receive better weapons, they come back for another go. We've had step one, seen phases of step two, and we'll eventually see step three again.

The biggest detriment to Force is it's monthly release. Even in StrikerS, we at least didn't have to wait so goddamn long to see if our complaints were valid. In Force, it takes a month. A month of stewing. This really makes it a manga that should be read casually, not as hardcore overly analytical like we're doing.

Though I'd prefer it if it was weekly instead...

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Despite my arguing i agree with this, it's the reason i say force could have worked better as a new, standalone series instead as an extension of the Nanoha franchise, even now the old cast feels out of place.
Agreed. A fresh cast, or even continuing with the StrikerS cast (I mean, hell, that show was pretty much set up to make Subaru the new lead) would have served Force far better.
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