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Old 2011-12-20, 07:54   Link #5061
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which is a transforming variable size warhammer...
Fixed for ya' xD

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
What balance? Nanoha and Fate got utterly smashed by the Wolkies. Yeah, they got a few minor scratches in (against Vita only by double-teaming if we're going to nitpick) but that's the same as Signum chopping Cypha's arm of (which outright trumps Fate's 'giving Signum a minor bruise).
Fate didn't go to the hospital and Nanoha didn't got almost ripped appart, and i'm pretty sure neither of both had this "possibly permanent spinal" damage stuff onto them at the time. Nanoha had some of that by StrikerS but it ocurred ofscreen and during a flashback which have much less of an impact.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Seriously, there is little difference. Good guys get defeated, they get stronger or receive better weapons, they come back for another go. We've had step one, seen phases of step two, and we'll eventually see step three again.
This is when it can be said that three's a little BIG difference. we laready talked about Force similutdes. We're not talking about smilitudes here, because it's now more than confirmed that Force have a LOT with previous installements of the franchise(mainly A's). It's the "execution" of those elements when things differ. you're right that we're on phase two but we're still on th early stages(Huckebein giving hints about their "reasons", Veyron being "kind of an anti-villain" for a change, Mr. Vandin makes his act of prescence, Teana taking the lead, Tohma training, etc...) where still on the segway. I'll guess things will speed up again once Curren's reunion takes place.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The biggest detriment to Force is it's monthly release. Even in StrikerS, we at least didn't have to wait so goddamn long to see if our complaints were valid. In Force, it takes a month. A month of stewing. This really makes it a manga that should be read casually, not as hardcore overly analytical like we're doing.

Though I'd prefer it if it was weekly instead...
Nothing to discuss here. I wholeheartily agree with this, it's a pain in the butt to being left especulating over the fate of a beloved character for so damn long, even her "return" is being treated at a horribly slowly pace.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Agreed. A fresh cast, or even continuing with the StrikerS cast (I mean, hell, that show was pretty much set up to make Subaru the new lead) would have served Force far better.
Just with the StrikerS cast could have been enough. The A's cast isn't doing that much anyway xP.

EDIT: Page claimed for Signum's spine T-T
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Old 2011-12-20, 07:56   Link #5062
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Nanoha's real change was that it was full-fledged fantasy setting disguised as a "magical girl in a mundane world" setting. Nanoha is actually more comparable to the Negima series rather than any magical girl series. In both, you have a splinter from a magical world introduced to a mundane world. The presence of magic starts growing from that splinter. Then the characters are taken to the magical world where the splinter came from, where they can now use their magic openly!
The biggest difference at present is, the magical world was only a lengthy visit for Negima while it's a permanent move for Nanoha.
I'll say this...

I didn't like Negima after it went to the magical world.

And I liked StrikerS way more than I liked A's.

Oh, and giving Madoka the grand prize?

...

Japan, I am disappoint.
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Old 2011-12-20, 08:01   Link #5063
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EDIT: Page claimed for Signum's spine T-T
Good job, you are giving Atomicox the mental image of Signum trophy killed by a Predator.
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Old 2011-12-20, 08:11   Link #5064
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[...] Signum trophy killed by a Predator.
Now, now, I had no such ideas... Not at all... Hmm.. Actually...
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Old 2011-12-20, 08:14   Link #5065
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Fixed for ya' xD
True, but that does not negate her skills with a giant warhammer.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Fate didn't go to the hospital and Nanoha didn't got almost ripped appart, and i'm pretty sure neither of both had this "possibly permanent spinal" damage stuff onto them at the time. Nanoha had some of that by StrikerS but it ocurred ofscreen and during a flashback which have much less of an impact.
Nanoha did in fact go to the hospital and spend a long time recuperating and Fate did in fact almost get sliced apart.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
This is when it can be said that three's a little BIG difference. we laready talked about Force similutdes. We're not talking about smilitudes here, because it's now more than confirmed that Force have a LOT with previous installements of the franchise(mainly A's). It's the "execution" of those elements when things differ. you're right that we're on phase two but we're still on th early stages(Huckebein giving hints about their "reasons", Veyron being "kind of an anti-villain" for a change, Mr. Vandin makes his act of prescence, Teana taking the lead, Tohma training, etc...) where still on the segway. I'll guess things will speed up again once Curren's reunion takes place.
We don't know how different three is because three has not happened yet, but given how the usual Nanoha patterns are already here, I myself don't think it'll be all that different.

Which in itself is another critic one might level against Force.
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Old 2011-12-20, 08:30   Link #5066
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
True, but that does not negate her skills with a giant warhammer.
Yeah, against giant easy-to-hit targets like the Defense Program, the Cradle's Generator and yes ....the Esquad Huckebein xDU.

She can also reduce Gigantform's size for more human-sized targets like she do with Zest and Garyuu and also have Rakketenform and regular form which are more manuverable than that "thing" xDU.

Heck, Vita even do a short monologue about how unreliable their new weapons are xDU.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nanoha did in fact go to the hospital and spend a long time recuperating and Fate did in fact almost get sliced apart.
Nanoha got a long recuperating time during her timeskip offscreen incident, she spent time in hospital during a's but were just a few days and she rised fully recovered in the space of a single week.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
We don't know how different three is because three has not happened yet, but given how the usual Nanoha patterns are already here, I myself don't think it'll be all that different.

Which in itself is another critic one might level against Force.
To be fair, "three" is quite different from season to season:

Season 1: Nanoha and Fate fight with a bunch of gundams and win, Precia self-offed herself xDU.

A's: Free-for-All battle of all the Main Cast VS. Big Background Boss "Defense Program".

StrikerS: Final battles everywhere massive asskickery in the case of almost everyone and supreme badassery from Vita while fighting an entire battleship worth of security.

...if anything i think it will be more like StrikerS due to the massive cast. I wonder if they'll use my idea of the heroes ganging up on the Huckebeins xD!
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Last edited by Akiyoshi; 2011-12-20 at 08:43.
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Old 2011-12-20, 09:42   Link #5067
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Jimmy, shall we respect the mod's suggestion and move this elsewhere?
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Old 2011-12-20, 10:04   Link #5068
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Yeah, against giant easy-to-hit targets like the Defense Program, the Cradle's Generator and yes ....the Esquad Huckebein xDU.

She can also reduce Gigantform's size for more human-sized targets like she do with Zest and Garyuu and also have Rakketenform and regular form which are more manuverable than that "thing" xDU.

Heck, Vita even do a short monologue about how unreliable their new weapons are xDU.
Regardless, she's used gigantform against smaller targets as well. Yes, lower profile ones, but it shows she is used to wielding it, and again in no way shows the new weapon to have failed. What we saw it do in action was a success.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Nanoha got a long recuperating time during her timeskip offscreen incident, she spent time in hospital during a's but were just a few days and she rised fully recovered in the space of a single week.
Though the point of this argument escapes me, Signum also recovered off-screen during a timeskip.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
To be fair, "three" is quite different from season to season:

Season 1: Nanoha and Fate fight with a bunch of gundams and win, Precia self-offed herself xDU.

A's: Free-for-All battle of all the Main Cast VS. Big Background Boss "Defense Program".

StrikerS: Final battles everywhere massive asskickery in the case of almost everyone and supreme badassery from Vita while fighting an entire battleship worth of security.

...if anything i think it will be more like StrikerS due to the massive cast. I wonder if they'll use my idea of the heroes ganging up on the Huckebeins xD!
Yes, yes, the details are different, but the basics remain the same: Cast lose, upgrade, fight a couple of times and end up with a victory under their belt in the end.
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Old 2011-12-20, 13:15   Link #5069
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
The problem isn't the existence of the story. It's in "how" the story is being telled xDU.
The 'problem' is that you don't like it. Which is all fine and well, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad. All these reasons for Force being bad people are presenting are just things they don't like. No one has presented an actual objective flaw with the manga.

From a storytelling standpoint there was nothing wrong with Signum losing to Cypha. However people act like it's the worst thing to happen ever soley because they didn't like it. And then they try to act like it's some irrefutable flaw with the manga instead of just saying it's solely personal preference.
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Old 2011-12-20, 13:52   Link #5070
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Must these really be the only acceptable male protagonist these days? Whatever happen to guys like Simon or Kenshin or Spike?
Well.. it's like this...

Making a competent main character seems to be tricky nowadays, because you see.. if the character is TOO competent (especially when it comes to girls) it ends up threatening the viewers.

So, often they will try to "soften" the main character and make him more easier for the current generation of audience to relate to him. And for the better or worse, being a Japanese school boy is the easier way.

The primary audience is still males, so:

When they see a female main character, they see an IDOL.

If they see a male character, they see a potential self-insert / avatar.

Touma from what I've seen so far, lacks the elements that would make him easy to relate to the audience
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Old 2011-12-20, 14:00   Link #5071
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Making a competent main character seems to be tricky nowadays, because you see.. if the character is TOO competent (especially when it comes to girls) it ends up threatening the viewers.

So, often they will try to "soften" the main character and make him more easier for the current generation of audience to relate to him.
You pretty much nailed Touma on the head there.

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And in what way is Force not telling a story?
I said it wasn't very good at telling one, not that it wasn't at all.
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Old 2011-12-20, 14:02   Link #5072
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Old 2011-12-20, 16:48   Link #5073
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If they see a male character, they see a potential self-insert / avatar.

Touma from what I've seen so far, lacks the elements that would make him easy to relate to the audience
Nonsense. If that was the case, explain why characters such as Batman, Sephiroth, Sasuke or any of the legions of completely unrelatable yet extremely popular characters enjoy their popularity.

Relatability in a character is a good idea, but its absence is hardly the reason people dislike characters.
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Old 2011-12-20, 17:11   Link #5074
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Sephiroth and Sasuke are popular with girls and are bad examples.

Thoma is relatable enough but he is neither after any of the girls nor are any of the girls after him. As such guys can't put themselves into the fantasy.
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Old 2011-12-20, 17:16   Link #5075
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Yeah I gotta agree, you don't need to want to be the character for them to be good. There's plenty of characters I like that I wouldn't really want to step into the shoes of.
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Old 2011-12-20, 17:31   Link #5076
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Sephiroth and Sasuke are popular with girls and are bad examples.

Thoma is relatable enough but he is neither after any of the girls nor are any of the girls after him. As such guys can't put themselves into the fantasy.
I just named a few characters that popped into my head, and the specific names aren't the point. There are thousands of popular characters who people people can't possibly relate to, yet they remain popular. In the same vein, characters don't have to represent the lives of the audience for people to put themselves into the fantasy. Nobody knows what it's like to be an alien with superpowers from the planet Krypton, yet that doesn't stop people from liking the character and even putting themselves into the superman fantasy.

Indeed vast difference can be just as much an attraction to characters. It speaks to the imagination. Very few among us can say they've experienced what Fate went through, yet even so she is the most popular character in the franchise. Why? Because while most cannot know what it was like for Fate, we can all imagine.
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Old 2011-12-20, 17:49   Link #5077
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Far as I can tell, the highly-transparent, easily-relatable-to male protagonists you speak of Key Board, only really work for harem shows, given the relative lack of a social and love life most otaku have. Most other male protagonists in non-harem shows are far from relatable.
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Old 2011-12-20, 18:18   Link #5078
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Regardless, she's used gigantform against smaller targets as well. Yes, lower profile ones, but it shows she is used to wielding it, and again in no way shows the new weapon to have failed. What we saw it do in action was a success.
A success against big targets, we can't talk about War Hammer's sucess against human-sized targets until we see evidence.


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Though the point of this argument escapes me, Signum also recovered off-screen during a timeskip.
Wrong, she hasn't fully recovered yet. She's just masochistic enough to rise from the bed and fight with possible spine injury. Also she will probably be handicapped for the rest of the season or even the rest of her life.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, yes, the details are different, but the basics remain the same: Cast lose, upgrade, fight a couple of times and end up with a victory under their belt in the end.
StrikerS showed that formula is not entirely necessary, neither Nanoha, Fate or Signum "lose" before winning on that season.

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The 'problem' is that you don't like it. Which is all fine and well, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad. All these reasons for Force being bad people are presenting are just things they don't like. No one has presented an actual objective flaw with the manga.
It can work both ways "just because you like it doesn't mean it's good", even if most of my argument is bickering there are some clear flaws, Nanoha Force, while not that bad, it's far from perfect. Saying that there's no noticeable flaws is also a form of bias. You're applying favoritism here.

I may be blind to the steenghts of the manga but that doesen't mean you must be blind to the flaws.

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From a storytelling standpoint there was nothing wrong with Signum losing to Cypha. However people act like it's the worst thing to happen ever soley because they didn't like it. And then they try to act like it's some irrefutable flaw with the manga instead of just saying it's solely personal preference.
It may be not detrimental to the story as a whole(but i don't know it because i'm biased remember xD?). But is detrimental to Signum's character and what she used to provoke in viewers. But well, i guess there's no point on going deeper into that because we agreed with Keroko before in that Signum is just a dispossable benchwarmer for Tsuzuki.

Returning to her injuries. I think that if her injuries end up being permanent the most sensible thing Hayate can do is retire Signum from the force until a full cure is founded. Military is not nice with handicapped soldiers, and it'll be beyond irresponsible to let an injured Signum to fight, her body can fail her at any moment and if that happens at a critical moment it will be a burden to her comrades and the mission.
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Old 2011-12-20, 18:36   Link #5079
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Nonsense. If that was the case, explain why characters such as Batman, Sephiroth, Sasuke or any of the legions of completely unrelatable yet extremely popular characters enjoy their popularity.

Relatability in a character is a good idea, but its absence is hardly the reason people dislike characters.
Err. Batman is for a different target audience, and I'd even say a different generation.

Sephiroth and Sasuke are EXTREMELY easy for teenagers to empathize with They relate with said characters' contempt for rules and authority.

Especially the ones they are going through, "I want to be dark and edgy!" phase

also see: http://en.dic.pixiv.net/a/Chuunibyou

Judging from the way you pharse it, I'm pretty sure you've grown up with FF7. How many "Sephiroth is so cool! I want to be like him! The world is screwed up and needs to be punished" comments did you hear from your peers? Or maybe you were one of them? For me, I lost count.

And they are trying to do this dark and edgy thing for Touma in Force too. It's just that he is not chuunibyou enough for now. What kind of chuunibyou with dark and egdy powers works with adults, much less ::GASP:: law enforcement? Unthinkable!
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Old 2011-12-20, 19:04   Link #5080
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Judging from the way you pharse it, I'm pretty sure you've grown up with FF7. How many "Sephiroth is so cool! I want to be like him! The world is screwed up and needs to be punished" comments did you hear from your peers? Or maybe you were one of them? For me, I lost count.
I must admit with shame that i used to be like that as a teenager, i wanted to be like Shinji Ikari or Sephirot and sent the world to hell for being such an unfair place and i fawned over "dark and edgy" characters dressed in black and all that stuff. Fortunately i now know better and was saved from that but if i my young self had the opportunity to watch Force he will be all like:

"yeah! life is so unfair, they don't understand them! The Huckebein are AWEZOMEEEE!! ...and Cypha is awesome cuz she pwned Signum ....YEEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!!!"

...i'm scared of my younger self o_O!

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And they are trying to do this dark and edgy thing for Touma in Force too. It's just that he is not chuunibyou enough for now. What kind of chuunibyou with dark and egdy powers works with adults, much less ::GASP:: law enforcement? Unthinkable!
Like i've said i don't understand the hate for Tohma, i understand dissapoint because he's not many things we would've liked to see but he's a pretty decent character who just happens to be dressed as a male dominatrix xDU.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nanoha did in fact go to the hospital and spend a long time recuperating and Fate did in fact almost get sliced apart
Oh yeah, i forgot to ask. This hasn't to do much with the current debate but ...when that happened? I don't remember Fate getting almost "sliced appart", unless you're counting Erio's trump onver her in ViVid as that xDU.
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