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Old 2012-12-21, 23:24   Link #6781
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No, I mean three months on their time. You see Isis says on the first pages on chapter 20 that it has been 2 months and a half since she became a public officer… so, in all that time the Hückebein just sit and do nothing, the SD6 just sit and did nothing and Vandin just sit and did nothing. You know for all that crap about reading and keeping my facts you tell me Kaijo, you seem to be forgetting others yourself. Is that time skip what bothers me the most, and why I say they aren’t doing anything. And even if they were the focus of he story is no longer Thoma and him being something but rather Hardis and his evil plans while the Hückebein just want revenge or something.
Annoying, isn't it? When you bring up facts over and over, and the other person refuses to acknowledge them? If you are going to ignore the facts I repeatedly bring up, then you can expect yours to be ignored as well. When you're ready to debate honestly, let me know.

And once again: No study of jewel seeds, and then didn't do really amount to much, and you're fine with that. No study of Silver Cross, and if it doesn't amount to anything, and it bothers you. So much of what went on in S1, is going on in Force.

The. Exact. Same. Stuff.

Multiple people have pointed this out to you. Again and again. You like S1, though, because it had Fate in it. At least be honest with yourself, and us. It's fine to like S1 because of Fate, and dislike Force because it doesn't have much Fate in it. You don't need to try and invent reasons to knock Force down as a horrible manga. You're not going to convince anyone here that it is horrible and to stop reading it. Force is going to continue to be made, regardless of what you say. And what has been written *does* make sense to everyone else here. The only one having a problem with anything, is you.

Well, Aki has a problem with something in Force, too. And if you've read this thread in any detail, you can see how well that went over with everyone else...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Not sure if they'd really care about public opinions, though I suppose you might be referring to the audience?
It was to tie things in to why Curren would give orders only to wound, and not kill, TSAB officers and such. You wound them, and they go off to lick their wounds, leaving you alone. Before this, they'd only run in to the odd patrol or small force that came after them. But if they started killing Bureau soldiers and mages, there would be a lot of people screaming for blood.

Yes, Curren and the Hucks don't care about public perception... only about the perception of them in the Bureau. That's the idea I was trying to get across, which a number of people here have pointed out in various ways.

Quote:
If you wanted me to be really cynical, I would say that Signum is still alive because of plot armor and not to permanently anger her (sane) fans.
Plot armor does account for a lot. Tsuzuki doesn't really seem to have the balls to want to kill any of his main characters. We all know what happened to Vita. So, if you wanted to twist/spin it that way, Curren's "no killing of TSAB" rule is simply his way of making sure none of his main's die to the Hucks at least. A bit wonky, perhaps, but the reasoning does make some sense.
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Old 2012-12-21, 23:39   Link #6782
Justin_Brett
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I've pointed out plot armor about that before. Signum's injuries were way worse than anything the characters in the air battle got, a group that happened to contain Nanoha, Fate and Subaru. Even if the villains didn't want to kill them, they still could have been hurt worse than what happened.

Of course, her plot armor was still good enough to avoid dying, but then again Nanoha is the kind of series that would have deaths matter a lot.
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Old 2012-12-22, 00:10   Link #6783
Sansker
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Ok, I didn’t know you have a problem with me Kaijo, I sure don’t have a problem with you. You see, my point was never the facts themselves. I know what Shamal say about the Eclipse, I read it, but the execution of such facts and how they were keep or set out of the story. And how did I feel about it. Execution is my main problem. And, to be fair, I liked the first season because it had Nanoha on it, if you insist to know that much. Fate is nice but Nanoha is my favorite character and one of the main reasons I watch the other seasons. And while it bothers me she is not on the main character spot since StrikerS (weird when all the seasons had her name on the title) is more than just that.

And I never try to make you think as me, to make you hate the manga or to proclaim I am the one who holds the ultimate truth. If you like the manga is fine. In fact I am happy for you, and I am not joking here. What I wanted was more of a debate on the manga itself but we get a little out of track and to a certain point you even went far enough to disqualify me when so far I haven’t told you anything to you Kaijo. And I am free of having all the problems with the series that I want, is my opinion, not yours. As well as you have all the rights to like it and love it as far as I care.

What I want to discuss was just simple how, from a story telling, Force is a flaw to me and doesn’t even live up the previous seasons with rather simple stories but more focus. And the amount of things add to Force instead of doing good, do more harm and makes it a confusing story. You see the problem here is that season one was a rather simple, all about the Jewel Seeds hast to be address in a few sentences by Yunno: “magic things that make wishes come true but are chaotic and you can seal it with this thing I give you” but if you start to add more complex elements and more plots them some better explanation is need it than quick lines to cover the details missing. That is what I mean.

I have been trying to debate with you, but you seem focus on… whatever you were making back there, since you are saying you didn’t debate for real or so I take from that line when you say “When you're ready to debate honestly, let me know”, well I am letting you know. I know this isn’t’ going to change anything, or stop Force from being made but I never say I want to. I mean… when did I say that? Really is all about talking and sharing points of views. That is all I want.
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Old 2012-12-22, 00:42   Link #6784
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We get it... you have a problem with complex things. You prefer them to be simple. And there is something to be said about that, but if you're expecting Force to get simple now, or at anytime, then you're out of luck. It's got more than just action and adventure... it's got mystery, politics, plots within plots, etc. Those who tend to like Force, like it for these reasons.

So, we're just a bit confused as to what you're trying to say. If you don't like it, then we already got that much. If there are parts you don't understand that you'd like us to explain to you, we can do that. But you have to be open to the explanations. Don't ask for one, and then say, "no, that's still not a good explanation, because they should do it my way instead."

I have nothing against you. What I have a problem with, is that you came in here, denigrating something using ideas that were blatantly false. If you're going to dislike aspects, and want it to be based on something else because subjective personal tastes, then you'll need to back them up.

Allow me.

One of my issues with Force, is that RF6 didn't call in the cyborgs as at least a backup force, knowing that they were going up against anti-magic people. Sure, you wanna test out new toys because you hope they will go into mass production to counter AMF weapons and the Eclipse... but you want to succeed, too. Bring in the Cyborgs!

That's how you do it.
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Old 2012-12-22, 01:05   Link #6785
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No really. I like complexity and for that matter if the story has more content I will like it even more but when that content doesn’t really fit well in a overall scale I will want something a little more simple to keep it going. Complexity is not a sign of quality. And my answers fall more on the: “the explanation feels cheap to me, so why not give something like this instead?” since we are all fans just giving out thoughts on the matter your explanation isn’t better than mine just because its different, when the matter is opinion there is no right or wrong. Besides some of the times I buy their quick lines but others they bring out really weird stuff and others I am still figuring out what was the meaning and I think it has to do with English no being my first language.

I will agree they are the best to do the job. But then, what the rest will do? There isn’t a real reason for them to not use the cyborgs to fight the Eclipse Drivers. They are best suit to fight under AMF or the power of the Eclipse Drivers to break magic and they can be easy modify to fit them best for fights. Subaru’s AEC, Sword Breaker, is the most effective of all the AEC weapons. Meaning is the only one that can crush a Divider and hasn’t been break in half like the Strike Cannon or the Fortress.
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Old 2012-12-22, 09:56   Link #6786
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Sansker, by your own words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker
You see the problem here is that season one was a rather simple... but if you start to add more complex elements and more plots them some better explanation is need it than quick lines to cover the details missing.
You said it yourself... you drew a comparison between "Simple" S1, saying it was good, and then contrasted it with "complex" Force, saying that was bad because it required many more explanations. Yes, complex stories do tend to require more explanations... but just because they do, doesn't make them worse than simple stories. Neither is better or worse than the other, so that leaves us with personal preference, ie, *you* prefer simple stories.

And, by the way, all the explanations needed for Force are there, and have been pointed out to you. You, and you alone, have just chosen not to accept them. You can deny reality all you like, but don't expect anyone here to let you get a free pass on it.

So, again: Just state that you don't care for Force on a subjective level, and leave it at that. Nobody would fault you for that.
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Old 2012-12-22, 11:23   Link #6787
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You are missing the point. This is not about what a complex story has better than a simple one. This is about how a simplest story, as season one of Nanoha, didn’t have too many problems for me because it has less crap to be throwing in the story, it was really straight forward. Good girl, rare jewels, bad girl then they need to fight each other. Force on the other hand has: a device that is a key part on some virus that is the thing that affects a family of bad guys who might or might not be part of a larger organization than is doing this because they are evil. So the good guys need the device… or capture the family… or stop the organization… or just do all of that.

By the way I notice you have the title “Anime Critic”, how funny, I have the same as well. Not here of course, but I do criticize anime. I like simplest and complex stories when they are done right. As I told you, many times by the way, my problem with Force is how tries to be complex and lacks content or good writing in many areas and how could be help if the author just go for a simplest approach as in the past.

Now about your last line… I could say what I think about it and what it sounded like but I am going to be simple and direct here and tell you: No.
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Old 2012-12-22, 11:32   Link #6788
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Whether is complex or not depend on the person. I personally think that Force is similar to many other series, and thus it isn't really that complex when one think about it.
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Old 2012-12-22, 11:55   Link #6789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
You are missing the point. This is not about what a complex story has better than a simple one. This is about how a simplest story, as season one of Nanoha, didn’t have too many problems for me because it has less crap to be throwing in the story, it was really straight forward. Good girl, rare jewels, bad girl then they need to fight each other. Force on the other hand has: a device that is a key part on some virus that is the thing that affects a family of bad guys who might or might not be part of a larger organization than is doing this because they are evil. So the good guys need the device… or capture the family… or stop the organization… or just do all of that.
So.... what is you problem with Force then? Because what you're describing here sounds like "Force is more complicated than S1, and therefore bad" which you just said wasn't the point. You're contradicting yourself here.
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Old 2012-12-22, 12:00   Link #6790
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What I say is that the series has more characters and more plot elements than previous ones but doesn’t execute them well. That is all.
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Old 2012-12-22, 13:54   Link #6791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhklan View Post
Whether is complex or not depend on the person. I personally think that Force is similar to many other series, and thus it isn't really that complex when one think about it.
This is a fair point, too. Some people look at something and see it as too simple, and some see it as too complex. I have to admit, I don't find Force's plot too complex. Then again, I can follow everything, and (mostly) everything makes sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
What I say is that the series has more characters and more plot elements than previous ones but doesn’t execute them well. That is all.
And Sansker, whether you realize it or not, that is not what you are saying. As Lhklan mentioned, whether something is simple or complex, is somewhat dependent upon the viewer. To us, Force isn't that complex. You keep saying that it is, which tells us a lot. The fact that you use "simple" and "complex" as adjectives, tells us you are having a hard time following the story, so it is very complex to you. The fact that you repeatedly have said you don't understand some things, or don't understand them very well, leads us to that conclusion as well.

What we can say: What Tsuzuki is doing, is not what you would do. And according to you, you want this manga wrapped up in a month or two. You want them to show two panels of an investigation that uncovers everything, and two panels of them studying the silver cross book and figuring it all out instantly. You want them locking up Thoma in a small room so he can't "explode"... but that is not something Nanoha, nor Fate, or anyone of our good guys would do. You want them to betray their character.

The type of story *you* want, is not what everyone else wants. And it would betray the characters and the narrative to even attempt to achieve it, if that is even possible. You start pulling out the story elements, and it starts falling apart.

But what you really want is this:

Nanoha: "Grr, we good guys, Huck bad guys, we smash."

Hucks: "We bad guys, we do bad guy things, grr!"

Hayate: "We instantly know all that is knowable, because spending time investigating would take too long. We ready to fight!"

*they fight, Nanoha's side wins, the end*

There you go. A simple story with a lack of complexity, and I finished it up quickly, so you don't have to wait!

Edit: If this is not what you want, then detail exactly what you would do with the story. What elements you would pull out, which you would add, and what you would change.
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Old 2012-12-22, 14:54   Link #6792
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I could try to explain Kaijo but you seem to have all the answers already so there is not point on it.
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Old 2012-12-22, 23:03   Link #6793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So.... what is you problem with Force then? Because what you're describing here sounds like "Force is more complicated than S1, and therefore bad" which you just said wasn't the point. You're contradicting yourself here.
I read it as

"S1 was simple. Simple explanations were okay. Force is complex. Its explanations should be appropriately comprehensive, but they aren't. That's why it fails."

and

"All these wasted, throwaway plot elements."
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:18   Link #6794
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I saw that was what he was trying to say, to, but the problem is... the explanations were appropriately comprehensive. And the manga is far from over, so anything that is currently unexplained, still has plenty of time to get one.

Also, he hasn't mentioned any throwaway plot elements, and from my view, nothing has been thrown away. Some things have moved to the back burner as other things have become more important. But that happened with the Relics, too.

It's like complaining that you don't have all the answers by episode 7 of a 26 episode series. You aren't supposed to. A good series will keep some things under wraps, to surprise you later.

Honestly, a lot of the whinging I hear about Force, seems to stem from a lack of patience. Because we don't hear this sort of whinging from weekly manga or anime series. Hell, One Piece has been going 10 years, and will go at least another 10, and one could say it has TONS of unresolved plot elements and is going slow. Yet, it still has tons of fans, too. It doesn't work for me, but I'm not about to go into their forum section and complain about those things. I simply avoid it as something not for me.
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Old 2012-12-23, 11:51   Link #6795
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Well, you say it yourself Kaijo. The type of history *you* want is not what the rest want. Is not even what most of the people want if we consider the amount of fans One Piece has in Japan only and the anime being one of the “Big Three” here on our side. Again, I am a fan of the Nanoha franchise and I am here because of it. However what is going on doesn’t suit me and I really see no reason for me to just be unable to talk about it.

Is opinion, it isn’t right or wrong. You think is enough I say it isn’t, but instead of that being just our takes you assume Kaijo that because you think is fine I should consider it fine as well and that is not how this works. You say I was trying to get everyone to think as I think but I never say you all should stop reading the manga and if you all think as I think then this will be boring as hell. Debate comes from having different points of view but not from trying to force your take on others and even make assumption you knew what my “real problem” was. And before we start a discussion over who is really the one who does this I will say that at times I do sound like if I am the one right but I am just trying to give my point.

For example back in the ViVid thread, as I already say, I didn’t like the series but Kereko there did point me out some things I haven’t even consider. I didn’t change the way I think about the series but show parts I wasn’t even sure they were there. Of course I can’t go myself every five lines saying “my opinion” but is the ultimate truth of what I am saying. People don’t see things the same way and looking at from another point of view is what can make a debate interesting and it was keeps threads alive. So far we have been talking more since we didn’t agree that if we all think the same and I don’t see a reason for that to even change.

And to be honest I did like Force at the beginning and even now I can see why you, Kaijo, and others might consider it good. However is not what I call good and even has elements I can enjoy but some good parts for me won’t make it up for a general poor impression. However this is Nanoha we are talking about, a franchise that was never about a perfect story from any point of view but that keep me interest long enough to see more and when I think is going down something I like, I won’t just shut up even if doesn’t change anything. But again, is not to make the ones who like this manga or ViVid feel bad about it. In fact is thanks to those that Nanoha is still alive and as long as last I will be there to watch it.
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Old 2012-12-23, 22:20   Link #6796
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There are reasons why shonen is the most popular; because it sells to the most demographics.

But if it were just your subjective opinion you were offering, that would be fine. But it wasn't, and you saw the same thing happen in the Vivid thread. We are only correcting your mistaken understanding.

And if you're hoping Force changes, it won't. If you don't like it by now, you aren't going to later. If you're only reading it, then, just to see how things turn out, then you might wanna suffer in silence. That would be the courteous thing to do.
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Old 2012-12-23, 22:30   Link #6797
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Well, some things in it will probably change eventually, like the stakes, how characters are viewed...

But if you mean enough that he'll start liking it, then naw.
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Old 2012-12-23, 22:48   Link #6798
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Well, that is your opinion Kaijo. But no, I will not “suffer in silence” as you say because that will be boring.

Then again I am afraid we lost track here again. This is about Force, right? No about me and what am I going to do. So, let’s get back on track.
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Old 2012-12-23, 22:51   Link #6799
Lhklan
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I'm curious though. Had Vice - Section Six original pilot - appears in the FORCE series? At all?
Cause his sniping skills can be really useful here.
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Old 2012-12-23, 23:00   Link #6800
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No, and it's a shame, really.
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