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Old 2012-12-28, 17:38   Link #6841
Akiyoshi
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Phew! finally my phone ine is restored and i can return to post after 5 days of inactivity ToT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
You should keep in mind that when Cypha lost her arm, magic wasn't the only factor. Yes, there was magical flames everywhere... but underneath all those magical flames was a very sharp physical sword. So that's why she lost her arm; not because of the magic. Case in point, the attack damaged Laevatein to a degree.
So the debate over Laevatein's status as a real weapon is still continuing? Well, Larvatein's destruction is clear evidence of an EC-Driver or at least Cypha's ability to enhace the durability of it's physical body (Cypha even mentioned EC-Driver bodies are enhaced to become living weapons). Signum wasted a good deal of her strenght slashing Cypha's arm and Laevatein suffered in consequence. The fact a reacted Cyp´ha managed to fend off Signum's attacks with easy are also evidence ...and then we have their rematch on Ch. 24, at first Signum's Gladiator Shield seemed strong enough to deal with Cypha's bladed attacks, until Cypha decided to take the fight a bit more seriously and destroyed the shield with her bare fingers. Showing not only the high dirability of her physical body but also how superior her strenght in comparission to Signum's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And the Eclipse and the dividers are just tools. They are just the things that make the bad guys a threat to our heroes.

And Nanoha has always had sci-fi. Hell, that's part of the reason S1 made waves, is because a magical girl show had technological weapons and space ships. But that's not surprising, since Tsuzuki is a fan of Super Robot Wars and Gundam, and thus those influences play heavily in all his references.
True, the Nanoha franchise always had sci-fi elements thrown into the mix but those were never as blatantly obvious as in FORCE. S1 and A's made a very admirable effort to tell the story as an encouraging adventure filled with magic ...only more badass than usual xD StrikerS made a giant leap into deep Sci-Fi replacing magical tomes and ancient warrior with an army of drones and cyborg-girls able to damper magic to some degree.

FORCE then did the final transition into full on sci-fi by dropping magic altogheter and forgcing our heroes to rely on common and expéndable weaponry insted of their unique and colofurl magic weapons. Also by bringing the stereotipical group of late 90's black leather-clad Anti-Villains and moving the story from a quest to find the misteries of magic to a story about corporations, political issues and complots. Sure those were always present in the Nanoha franchise to some degree due to the presence of the TSAB but those were never the center of the plot until StrikerS came along.

Some people liked that change very much, others no so much but the truth is that a change occurred. I dare someone to take FORCE and compare it with Season 1 and tell me those are the same thing. Heck, FORCE's differences with the original material is one of the high selling points of ViVid xDU

EDIT: Page claimed for an astonished Signum watching the Grendels flying in the sky on Santa's sled xD!
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Last edited by Akiyoshi; 2012-12-28 at 18:26.
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Old 2012-12-28, 17:59   Link #6842
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A freakin' spaceship doesn't make it blatantly obvious that it's sci-fi?

If you don't want political plots, there is always Innocent and Vivid. As well as various other magical girl shows like Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura. Just realize that a lot of people like Nanoha because it's different. Because it has politics and plots that don't simply revolve around magic or a magic item, but that use magical girls and magic simply as one plot element among many.

I would also then ask you, how would you ask our magical heroes deal with anti-magic people and weaponry? I would point out that every particle has an anti-particle, which is essentially the same particle but with a reversed spin. So, it logically made sense that there would be anti-magic eventually.

Edit: To me, many series that use magic, never really stop to consider the full ramifications of the fact that magic exists. How would it affect a civilization? And they always keep that magic secret, never dealing with the ramifications of making it public. To me, Nanoha was about finally updating the genre to the 21st century, and addressing things that previous series (and every series since) has failed to address.
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Old 2012-12-28, 18:19   Link #6843
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
A freakin' spaceship doesn't make it blatantly obvious that it's sci-fi?
One element of Sci-Fi doesn't make a story instantly sci-fi. I never said Nanoha lacked Sci-Fi elementes i just said their influence was very minor on early seasons inc omparision with the latest xDU

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If you don't want political plots, there is always Innocent and Vivid.
S1 lacked political plots and it was a pretty good season. A's had some very little influence of political plots and is one of the most awesome seasons of any magical girl show ever. FORCE is just inches of becoming Gundam or Super Robot Wars which are series with cool fights but utterly boring and complexed plots (specially the latter, i was very excited about OG: The Inspector but the series flopped very quickly due to the overly long exposition scenes and too contrived political stuff going on). Ironically i don't like innocent and Vivid is merely "ok" to me.



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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
As well as various other magical girl shows like Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura.
Funny, Sailor Moon was one of the first mahou shoujos i've seen ever and Card Captor Sakura is my favourite anime series of all time xD! In fact, what initially attracted me to the series were a couple of fan arts depicting Sakura and Nanoha togheter and since i was trying to write a CCS fanfic at the time i wanted to use Nanoha as Sakura's daughter so i started to watch the series to get info and the rest is history xD

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Just realize that a lot of people like Nanoha because it's different. Because it has politics and plots that don't simply revolve around magic or a magic item, but that use magical girls and magic simply as one plot element among many.
True, i liked the first season very much because they weren't only about magic items as also included pretty interesting subplots and the slight touch of sci-fi and political stuff was very nice. It was a very attractive and original combination. What i don't like about FORCE is that it walked away from that premise and is slowly turning into your stereotypical mecha-show filled with disposable equipement, cinical character and over complicated political arguing. The magical and idealistic side is still present but barely, the more bright and action-y times of A's are missed and the existence of several knock offs around that era seems to indicate several people share the feeling.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I would also then ask you, how would you ask our magical heroes deal with anti-magic people and weaponry?
Ohhh... i'm glad you asked that xD

Ok, as far as we know we had been explained that EC effects only work on magic which works on a set structure (aka. links) by severing said bonds and disruptiing what make spells working. In that sense the heroes could search for a new way to use their magic that doesn't involve linking ...maybe going on a mystical search and developing more natural means of casting magic and thus being able to regain the control of their original (but now enhaced) powersets and weapons.

On the other hand FORCE itself has acknoledge the existence of a prototype upgrade to gtranform old devices in a way they allow their users to cast and use their original powersets against the new threats ...why this awesome upgrade wasn't shared among the cast with Bardiche as the only beneficiary is beyond me as the recovery of their original weapons and powers will oviously mean the character will be able to offer their maximum potential in battle ...instead they're constantly limited by the use of faulty weapons who are very expendable and took magic in an evidently wrong direction (so far the Grendels are the only ones who treated the AEC-equips as something Big ...with the Hucks, Vandin and Vita no so impressed).

The only true threat is Tohma and maybe Curren (assuming she's a Zero driver as well) because the zero effect can shut down any kind of energy at once. Ways to use magc against the Eclipse outside of lame over-technological weapons do exist. But Tsuzuki just decided to ignore them in favour of more gundam-ish stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Edit: To me, many series that use magic, never really stop to consider the full ramifications of the fact that magic exists. How would it affect a civilization? And they always keep that magic secret, never dealing with the ramifications of making it public. To me, Nanoha was about finally updating the genre to the 21st century, and addressing things that previous series (and every series since) has failed to address.
Nanoha did in fact made great advances into explaining how a magical society could work (at least until FORCE started the deconstructions of said concepts) but is not the first nor th last series to adress a magical civilization ...and certainly has failed in one spot ...i'm still waiting for a series that takes what could be a magical influenced civilization growing on present day Earth. Nanoha had a good chance to do that but instead presented us with Mid-Childa. I've had seen magical goverments several times like the land of Cephiro in Maigc Knight Rayearth who is entirely magic driven ...also the other countries who appear latter who are more or less supported by mystical means as well (except Autozam which is full on Sci-Fi), Nanoha isn't the first but is indeed a good attempt to depict a modern day magical civilization.

On that aspect i'm waiting for the EC conflict to finally reach some core planets in the plot like Mid-Childa. So far the scenery has been inside far away worlds whose societies aren't as affected by magic. If the main conflict moves to mid-childa we'll be able to see the true ramification of the Eclipse problem and how that can threat the very foundation of a society entirely supported by something as fragile as the magic the EC-Drivers can destroy. I admit that will be pretty interesting to see.
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Old 2012-12-28, 20:02   Link #6844
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I will have to say Nanoha didn’t really teach anything about how a magical society works. The fact is that most of the Nanoha’s world on the TSAB is always restricted to a small base in some place. We do learn how things work there and we get some minor details of how things work out such base but in the end the world feels kind of empty. Mid-Childa looks just like Earth with some modern tech that doesn’t really reminds me of magic as they do about the “future” in that science-fiction concept.

One of my personal favorites is a line Steed says in Force where he mentions that Caledfwlch Techniques, the company that made the AEC weapons, is leader on magic for domestic use. So… what that means? They made “magic” kitchen supplies that work alone and I don’t need to put batteries or plug them. For that matter do they still use electricity or they use magic as they power source? And another thing, the cars still use gasoline or they use something else? Why they still keep using rotors on helicopters when we see ships that can just hold in the middle of the air? On that regard, why they will even need choppers when they have an entire army of flying people? And I can go on.

My point is that the world of Nanoha really started to feel empty when StrikerS came in with such a huge universe and did so little with it. Expanding things is good, but to me it always feel as they left so many things out that I can put anything there to fit the holes, making this world not unique and more generic. To me. Others may love it, and I can see why, but I need, maybe not more but just something else.
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Old 2012-12-28, 21:16   Link #6845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
One element of Sci-Fi doesn't make a story instantly sci-fi. I never said Nanoha lacked Sci-Fi elementes i just said their influence was very minor on early seasons inc omparision with the latest xDU

S1 lacked political plots and it was a pretty good season. A's had some very little influence of political plots and is one of the most awesome seasons of any magical girl show ever. FORCE is just inches of becoming Gundam or Super Robot Wars which are series with cool fights but utterly boring and complexed plots (specially the latter, i was very excited about OG: The Inspector but the series flopped very quickly due to the overly long exposition scenes and too contrived political stuff going on). Ironically i don't like innocent and Vivid is merely "ok" to me.
Your initial paragraph has a fair point, but... S1 did have it's own share of political plot points. It just wasn't too obvious until the movie, with Precia's research and accident. The longer a series runs, the more I would expect that, eventually, background elements become foreground elements, and be directly confronted by the characters. If they don't change things up, they will lose viewers, as they grow tired of seeing the same thing over and over.

Every series must change. It happened to a sci-fi series I watched, Stargate. SG-1 and Atlantis were fairly similar, but had begun to lose viewers. In order to gain new ones, they changed the tone with SGU and brought in new elements. And I'll admit, I didn't particularly like some of the new elements, or how they handled things. But given that Stargate was losing viewers, they had to do something to bring in new ones. That's kinda what Tsuzuki is doing with Force, Vivid, and Innocent: trying to bring in new people, and hang onto those that like each particular element.

Quote:
True, i liked the first season very much because they weren't only about magic items as also included pretty interesting subplots and the slight touch of sci-fi and political stuff was very nice. It was a very attractive and original combination. What i don't like about FORCE is that it walked away from that premise and is slowly turning into your stereotypical mecha-show filled with disposable equipement, cinical character and over complicated political arguing. The magical and idealistic side is still present but barely, the more bright and action-y times of A's are missed and the existence of several knock offs around that era seems to indicate several people share the feeling.
What I mean to say is... we have several different Nanoha series running, each one apparently designed to appeal to different people. For those that want shonen tournaments and fanservice, there is Vivid. For those that want something a bit more magical girly, there is Innocent. For those that want more complicated plots with politics, there is Force. While I'd want Innocent and Vivid to be more like Force, there are people who like those series the way they are. So... can you accept each series should remain to that particular fan base?

Quote:
Ok, as far as we know we had been explained that EC effects only work on magic which works on a set structure (aka. links) by severing said bonds and disruptiing what make spells working. In that sense the heroes could search for a new way to use their magic that doesn't involve linking ...maybe going on a mystical search and developing more natural means of casting magic and thus being able to regain the control of their original (but now enhaced) powersets and weapons.
I'm not quite sure you are understanding the concepts the Nanoverse uses. Mages take magical particles and bind them together for spells. The EC effect dissolves those bonds. It's like me throwing a snowball at you, and before it hits you, you heat it up enough that it melts into steam and goes *poof*. Given this, there isn't any way for me to hit you.

The only other way for magic to hurt an EC person, is indirectly, as Hayate showed (and as the girls initially used the drones in the StrikerS manga). You used magic to manipulate physical objects and hurl them. Which is exactly what the new weapons are designed to more easily allow mages to accomplish: use magic to hurl physical matter.

Given that, I don't see what you're trying to say with a "more natural" source of casting magic. As long as I'm tossing snowballs at you, you'll keep dissolving them.

Of course, given the standard anti-matter explanation, when a magic particle and an anti-magic particle meet, they simply self-annihilate each other and release energy. Given that, if Tsuzuki explore that aspect more, it could be that hitting them with enough magic power would overwhelm their ability to deal with it. In that line of thought, I'm waiting for the new version of Starlight Breaker that Nanoha will use to totally overwhelm someone. Perhaps it will gather anti-magic particles instead of magic ones, and thus prevent them from delinking it at all.

In fact, study of the silver cross and the EC, could result in Nanoha learning to use anti-magic particles. In Fairy Tail, Natsu (a fire mage) found his dragon flames consistently overpowered by a villain's "god flames." He eventually totally doused his own magic and ate the God flames, turning the villain's own power back on him.

Quote:
On the other hand FORCE itself has acknoledge the existence of a prototype upgrade to gtranform old devices in a way they allow their users to cast and use their original powersets against the new threats ...why this awesome upgrade wasn't shared among the cast with Bardiche as the only beneficiary is beyond me as the recovery of their original weapons and powers will oviously mean the character will be able to offer their maximum potential in battle ...instead they're constantly limited by the use of faulty weapons who are very expendable and took magic in an evidently wrong direction (so far the Grendels are the only ones who treated the AEC-equips as something Big ...with the Hucks, Vandin and Vita no so impressed).
One main reason I can see, is that Fate is naturally a melee fighter. Nanoha is a caster. So they gave her a weapon that may use magic to initially form solid matter, but doesn't need magic to keep form. Thus, she has a glowy weapon of electricity. Now, it would seem that Signum and Vita could use something similar, but it may be that their magical style doesn't allow for it (or there wasn't time enough to convert their devices). It might also be that, because they are magical programs, their devices can't really be changed, either. They can only be given new devices. They are essentially locked in "as is" and can only be powered up with outside resources.

Quote:
Nanoha did in fact made great advances into explaining how a magical society could work (at least until FORCE started the deconstructions of said concepts) but is not the first nor th last series to adress a magical civilization ...and certainly has failed in one spot ...i'm still waiting for a series that takes what could be a magical influenced civilization growing on present day Earth. Nanoha had a good chance to do that but instead presented us with Mid-Childa. I've had seen magical goverments several times like the land of Cephiro in Maigc Knight Rayearth who is entirely magic driven ...also the other countries who appear latter who are more or less supported by mystical means as well (except Autozam which is full on Sci-Fi), Nanoha isn't the first but is indeed a good attempt to depict a modern day magical civilization.
I would like to see magic come to Earth officially, and hope we see a story like that in the future. But in the meantime, Mid-Childa is a good substitute

Quote:
On that aspect i'm waiting for the EC conflict to finally reach some core planets in the plot like Mid-Childa. So far the scenery has been inside far away worlds whose societies aren't as affected by magic. If the main conflict moves to mid-childa we'll be able to see the true ramification of the Eclipse problem and how that can threat the very foundation of a society entirely supported by something as fragile as the magic the EC-Drivers can destroy. I admit that will be pretty interesting to see.
Well, Hayate realizes this, and so is trying to contain the problem *before* it spreads to main worlds. It wouldn't be in the Bureau's interest, to have it's populace find out that magic can no longer protect them. But considering that most EC people stay out of Bureau space or stick to the fringes, the Bureau has been mostly content to not pursue it too hard. You can bet that will change if anti-magic publicaly threatens Mid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I will have to say Nanoha didn’t really teach anything about how a magical society works. The fact is that most of the Nanoha’s world on the TSAB is always restricted to a small base in some place. We do learn how things work there and we get some minor details of how things work out such base but in the end the world feels kind of empty. Mid-Childa looks just like Earth with some modern tech that doesn’t really reminds me of magic as they do about the “future” in that science-fiction concept.

One of my personal favorites is a line Steed says in Force where he mentions that Caledfwlch Techniques, the company that made the AEC weapons, is leader on magic for domestic use. So… what that means? They made “magic” kitchen supplies that work alone and I don’t need to put batteries or plug them. For that matter do they still use electricity or they use magic as they power source? And another thing, the cars still use gasoline or they use something else? Why they still keep using rotors on helicopters when we see ships that can just hold in the middle of the air? On that regard, why they will even need choppers when they have an entire army of flying people? And I can go on.

My point is that the world of Nanoha really started to feel empty when StrikerS came in with such a huge universe and did so little with it. Expanding things is good, but to me it always feel as they left so many things out that I can put anything there to fit the holes, making this world not unique and more generic. To me. Others may love it, and I can see why, but I need, maybe not more but just something else.
You need to look into more of those extra materials. But for some of your others... they do have other power sources, most likely electricity. Witness the bike Teana took from Vice, which was able to move in the Cradle. And the helicopter question has been answered before... cost. They spend most of their money on ships, leaving little to ground transport. And if you have easy electric generation, then helicopter locomotion is fairly simple and cheap to do.

The other thing is that Vice's helicopter has no tail rotor, so from that, we can surmise that it isn't fully using just the spinning blades to move around. Given the size of it and the blades, I'd say there is some advanced tech providing some lift and movement. The helicopter part just assists in providing some lift.
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Old 2012-12-28, 22:03   Link #6846
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Your initial paragraph has a fair point, but... S1 did have it's own share of political plot points. It just wasn't too obvious until the movie, with Precia's research and accident. The longer a series runs, the more I would expect that, eventually, background elements become foreground elements, and be directly confronted by the characters. If they don't change things up, they will lose viewers, as they grow tired of seeing the same thing over and over.
I agree with a franchise unveiling more elements of their initial releases to catch the interest of new fans on the roots as also to offer something attractive to old viewers but in that sense one of the few aspects i didn't liked from MOVIE 1st (which is otherwse pretty damn good movie xD) is the fact they seemed to betray their own canon in order to make StrikerS and FORCe to look more coherent since the initial transfer from "magical adventures of a girl and her newly formed allies" to "militia organization fighting against robot drones and mad scientists" was very abrupt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Every series must change. It happened to a sci-fi series I watched, Stargate. SG-1 and Atlantis were fairly similar, but had begun to lose viewers. In order to gain new ones, they changed the tone with SGU and brought in new elements. And I'll admit, I didn't particularly like some of the new elements, or how they handled things. But given that Stargate was losing viewers, they had to do something to bring in new ones. That's kinda what Tsuzuki is doing with Force, Vivid, and Innocent: trying to bring in new people, and hang onto those that like each particular element.
That's why i generally dislike long runners, most start pretty good and interesting, then the writers start running out of ideas and start throwing anything they think could mantain the popularity of the series ...betraying the initial concept in the process. It happened several times in the past and is sad it's occurring to Nanoha now. To Tsuzuki's credit i must admit there was some originality in the way he attempted to do that xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
What I mean to say is... we have several different Nanoha series running, each one apparently designed to appeal to different people. For those that want shonen tournaments and fanservice, there is Vivid. For those that want something a bit more magical girly, there is Innocent. For those that want more complicated plots with politics, there is Force. While I'd want Innocent and Vivid to be more like Force, there are people who like those series the way they are. So... can you accept each series should remain to that particular fan base?
Then what happens with the fans who loved the solidness of the original concept? It was painfull for me to see ViVid and FORCE initially ...and then Innocent. All because they took an interesting concept with lots of potential and different ways to develope and ripped it appart into it's most basic pieces. I liked Nanoha A's because it was at the same time fun, dramatic, exciting, grim and innocent. Tusuzuki now took all of those elements and made three different series focusing only on a small handfull of them each. As a result FORCE is too grim and serious to my tastes while Innocent is too girlish and carefree, and ViVid seems interesting but with no real direction.

I liked the Nanoha franchise because it was able to make a good mix of all those elements and make those work togheter to a very interesting result. It's like if someone take your favourite hamburger and forced you to eat one-by-one all the ingredients appart from each other. It's just not the same.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'm not quite sure you are understanding the concepts the Nanoverse uses. Mages take magical particles and bind them together for spells. The EC effect dissolves those bonds. It's like me throwing a snowball at you, and before it hits you, you heat it up enough that it melts into steam and goes *poof*. Given this, there isn't any way for me to hit you.
Not exactly it was stated that Mid and Belkan magic fails against EC because of linking but Bardiche allows unlinked magic which means Fate doesn't need to make a spell circle with calculations and instructions to perform a magical effect. In other words of fiction more primordial forces don't need such enchantment or intructions to work. And, in fact it could work as a way to make the Nanoha cast to embrace a truer form of magic than the one used by Mid and Belkan schools which is too methodical.

To be more graphic, it's not ike heat melting a ball, it's more like a force disrupting the conditions allowing the snow to stick togheter in the form of a snowball. If you manage to find a way to launch a snowball without such process you'll be able to go past said restriction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The only other way for magic to hurt an EC person, is indirectly, as Hayate showed (and as the girls initially used the drones in the StrikerS manga). You used magic to manipulate physical objects and hurl them. Which is exactly what the new weapons are designed to more easily allow mages to accomplish: use magic to hurl physical matter.
Fate's use of lighting magic has proven otherwise. Signum's Flame MCA failed just because fire is such a lame element compared to lightning but Fate can produce uncancellable lightning. Doubt EC can protect them against someone who can simply command natural elements trough magic or affect abstract concepts like time or perception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Given that, I don't see what you're trying to say with a "more natural" source of casting magic. As long as I'm tossing snowballs at you, you'll keep dissolving them.
Not if you stop making snowballs and simply start calling those into existence, since there's no structure to break the EC effect will be meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Of course, given the standard anti-matter explanation, when a magic particle and an anti-magic particle meet, they simply self-annihilate each other and release energy. Given that, if Tsuzuki explore that aspect more, it could be that hitting them with enough magic power would overwhelm their ability to deal with it. In that line of thought, I'm waiting for the new version of Starlight Breaker that Nanoha will use to totally overwhelm someone. Perhaps it will gather anti-magic particles instead of magic ones, and thus prevent them from delinking it at all.
Given Cypha's explanation to Tohma and Quinn on Ch. 23 EC seems to run on it's oun kind of "energy" which according to Reinforce in the G.O.D. game is entirely different from magic. So, your theory may be possible, let's see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
In fact, study of the silver cross and the EC, could result in Nanoha learning to use anti-magic particles. In Fairy Tail, Natsu (a fire mage) found his dragon flames consistently overpowered by a villain's "god flames." He eventually totally doused his own magic and ate the God flames, turning the villain's own power back on him.
I doubt Nanoha could "learn" to use Anti-Magic particles since being an EC driver seems to be a must requisite to do so. As it was discussed earlier Divider can only be used by EC infected people which are the ones adapted to use said energies. Unless Nanoha gets somehow infected i doubt something like that could be possible at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Now, it would seem that Signum and Vita could use something similar, but it may be that their magical style doesn't allow for it (or there wasn't time enough to convert their devices). It might also be that, because they are magical programs, their devices can't really be changed, either. They can only be given new devices. They are essentially locked in "as is" and can only be powered up with outside resources.
I as well argued a similar theory in the past and everyone called me a madman xDU In fact it seems the Wolkenritter are set in a stationary level of power from were they simply can't develope any further. In shorter words, they were pretty strogn when they first appeared but they can't become stronger than they are so they're doomed to be surpassed by everyone else eventually ...which finally started to happen. They can only grow in power trough add ons like Unison and the such, otherwise they're like old cars who are long past their good old years.

Altough one thing contradicts your theory about Laevatein and Graf Eisen (or at least Laevatein). On Ch. 20 it was stated Laevatein was upgraded to be more resistant to EC effects which was what allowed Signum to spar with Tohma on first place. There's also the bits on the A's manga where it was stated Mary made some enhacements to Laevatein's blade after the events of the Book of Darkness incident (Signum was provoking Fate to a fight to see the results of said enhacements). So we can more or less assume the devices of the Knights can indeed be modified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I would like to see magic come to Earth officially, and hope we see a story like that in the future. But in the meantime, Mid-Childa is a good substitute
Well, as long as they do more than just showoff how great of a magical society it is i guess it'll be fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Well, Hayate realizes this, and so is trying to contain the problem *before* it spreads to main worlds. It wouldn't be in the Bureau's interest, to have it's populace find out that magic can no longer protect them. But considering that most EC people stay out of Bureau space or stick to the fringes, the Bureau has been mostly content to not pursue it too hard. You can bet that will change if anti-magic publicaly threatens Mid.
Considering the sub-par work Section Six is doing on this case i hope to see soon the Eclipse reaching the main worlds so we finally get to see something actually interesting and spectacular.
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Old 2012-12-28, 22:40   Link #6847
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I agree with a franchise unveiling more elements of their initial releases to catch the interest of new fans on the roots as also to offer something attractive to old viewers but in that sense one of the few aspects i didn't liked from MOVIE 1st (which is otherwse pretty damn good movie xD) is the fact they seemed to betray their own canon in order to make StrikerS and FORCe to look more coherent since the initial transfer from "magical adventures of a girl and her newly formed allies" to "militia organization fighting against robot drones and mad scientists" was very abrupt.
Heh, Nanoha isn't the only fandom to face this. In fact, the transformers fandom was rife with it when Beast Wars came out. The phrase TRUKK NOT MUNKY eventually sprang up in response to all the complaints. It's an apt example, because despite the initial hate... Beast Wars went on to become one of the best transformers series. At the very least, it turned out very, very good.

So, having seen that, I've tried to suppress my inner knee jerk reaction and wait until a series is at least more developed to begin castrating it. Trying to avoid They Changed It, Now It Sucks. Although, granted, Vivid is trying my patience. But I just try to view it as more of a technical manual explaining some aspects of magic and the world, and ignore the rest.

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Then what happens with the fans who loved the solidness of the original concept?
See "TRUKK NOT MUNKY" above. The fans howl in misery.

Look at it this way... every series will lose viewers as it goes on, even if it sticks to the same formula. Almost no series is immune to this. Given that, what would you prefer? That the series just end because it becomes no longer profitable? Or that it continues, albeit in a form that you might not enjoy all that much? It's a personal choice, but mostly I tend to prefer it continue. If it continues in a form I don't tend to enjoy, then I just drift away from the fandom. Simple as that. If the changes cause viewership to fall more, then perhaps they'll revert.

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Not exactly it was stated that Mid and Belkan magic fails against EC because of linking but Bardiche allows unlinked magic which means Fate doesn't need to make a spell circle with calculations and instructions to perform a magical effect.
All it means is that Fate uses turns unlinked mana into the form of a blade (using her lightning conversion affinity), something that is difficult for someone without an affinity to do (although no impossible). And some elements lend themselves more easily to this then others. Fire wouldn't make a good sword, but ice would be decent. However, in order to push magic out as a spell, you need to link it to keep it coherent in, say, a bullet or a beam. Otherwise, the bullet or beam just falls apart (and also lacks any of the aspects you may "program" into the spell).

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To be more graphic, it's not ike heat melting a ball, it's more like a force disrupting the conditions allowing the snow to stick togheter in the form of a snowball. If you manage to find a way to launch a snowball without such process you'll be able to go past said restriction.
Heat is a force that disrupts the conditions that allow snow to stick together. :P

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I doubt Nanoha could "learn" to use Anti-Magic particles since being an EC driver seems to be a must requisite to do so. As it was discussed earlier Divider can only be used by EC infected people which are the ones adapted to use said energies. Unless Nanoha gets somehow infected i doubt something like that could be possible at all.
I'm not saying she'd generate anti-magic particles. After all, she has a normal matter linker core, that only produce regular magic particles. But Starlight Breaker is a spell that gathers spent mana together; it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for her to alter her spell to gather those anti-magic particles after a tough EC battle, and turn their own energy against them.

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I as well argued a similar theory in the past and everyone called me a madman xDU In fact it seems the Wolkenritter are set in a stationary level of power from were they simply can't develope any further. In shorter words, they were pretty strogn when they first appeared but they can't become stronger than they are so they're doomed to be surpassed by everyone else eventually ...which finally started to happen. They can only grow in power trough add ons like Unison and the such, otherwise they're like old cars who are long past their good old years.

Altough one thing contradicts your theory about Laevatein and Graf Eisen (or at least Laevatein). On Ch. 20 it was stated Laevatein was upgraded to be more resistant to EC effects which was what allowed Signum to spar with Tohma on first place. There's also the bits on the A's manga where it was stated Mary made some enhacements to Laevatein's blade after the events of the Book of Darkness incident (Signum was provoking Fate to a fight to see the results of said enhacements). So we can more or less assume the devices of the Knights can indeed be modified.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are long past their good ole years... Signum is still S- rank, which is greater than most Bureau mages. Not too many reach those high ranks. And Vita is still AAA+, and the forwards would tell you all about how she's still a formidable threat. :P

But with regards to the weapons, yeah, I see your point. In that case, I would be curious as to why Vita had a new weapon, instead of a modified Graf Eisen... unless she was keeping Graf as a backup, and just field testing the new Warhammer. If it worked, great. If not, she could revert to Graf (or Graf's modifications might not have been done yet). Teana's weren't, after all. And even things like the Strike Cannon haven't been fully completed.
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Old 2012-12-28, 22:55   Link #6848
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And then Beast Wars had a sequel in Beast Machines, which legitimately did suck because it was different.
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Old 2012-12-29, 04:20   Link #6849
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Heh, Nanoha isn't the only fandom to face this. In fact, the transformers fandom was rife with it when Beast Wars came out. The phrase TRUKK NOT MUNKY eventually sprang up in response to all the complaints. It's an apt example, because despite the initial hate... Beast Wars went on to become one of the best transformers series. At the very least, it turned out very, very good.
I got your point, fortunately i wasn't part of the G1 fandom so i received Beast Wars pretty well and indeed became one of the greatest Transformers series on my list ...yet it's immediate sequel on the other hadn, well, i guess Justin summarized it perfectly:

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And then Beast Wars had a sequel in Beast Machines, which legitimately did suck because it was different.
Yup, not even good sequels are immune to this xDU

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So, having seen that, I've tried to suppress my inner knee jerk reaction and wait until a series is at least more developed to begin castrating it. Trying to avoid They Changed It, Now It Sucks. Although, granted, Vivid is trying my patience. But I just try to view it as more of a technical manual explaining some aspects of magic and the world, and ignore the rest.
Yeah, more or less is the only way i've managed to start reading FORCE without having the weight of my strong Signum-related bias distracting me from the plot all the time. FORCE have tons of flaws but managed to introduce some interesting concepts and created several questions about some of the basic concepts and foundations of the Nanohaverse. I'm not reading it like a fan but more like a way to satisfy my curiosity.

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See "TRUKK NOT MUNKY" above. The fans howl in misery.
According to some guy in another site, "Signum butthurt fan's tears are delicious" so you may want to give those a try xDU

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Look at it this way... every series will lose viewers as it goes on, even if it sticks to the same formula. Almost no series is immune to this. Given that, what would you prefer? That the series just end because it becomes no longer profitable? Or that it continues, albeit in a form that you might not enjoy all that much? It's a personal choice, but mostly I tend to prefer it continue. If it continues in a form I don't tend to enjoy, then I just drift away from the fandom. Simple as that. If the changes cause viewership to fall more, then perhaps they'll revert.
There's always the option to end the series on a high note. You know, ending the show when it's still popular and interesting. That way you can guarantee a loyal fandom for years while barely moving a finger and then take your time to prepare something great for your great return (look at the very successful Evangelion movies, letting the franchise rest for a decade and then releasing movies every 3 or so years have worked wonders to literally "rebuild" the popularity of a formerly overabused franchise).

Some series ahs become classics without the need of going on and on forever. But yeah i kind of understand your standpoint, as a fan i always have encountered feelings about sequels or spin-offs, i always have the natural desire to see more of my favourite characters (i was very pumped up after the StrikerS manga special chapter for more than explained reasons) ...but said feeling also comes with the fear of getting a lame sequel instead (...my face after reading Ch. 7). So yeah, it's kind of a jeopardy everytime a sequel from an admired work comes out.

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All it means is that Fate uses turns unlinked mana into the form of a blade (using her lightning conversion affinity), something that is difficult for someone without an affinity to do (although no impossible). And some elements lend themselves more easily to this then others. Fire wouldn't make a good sword, but ice would be decent. However, in order to push magic out as a spell, you need to link it to keep it coherent in, say, a bullet or a beam. Otherwise, the bullet or beam just falls apart (and also lacks any of the aspects you may "program" into the spell).
Yeah but that's only a way to channel magic, Mid and Belkan schools (as also other several magic schools in fiction) follows a strict formula full of codes and routes to perform "magic" ...but some magic users have the ability to cast upon said forces in a less methodical way ...almost like "wishing" for things to happen. In that sense i'm very eager to see how that Witch girl from ViVid fights and how her "curses" work. True magic can bend rules and disrupt logic while the EC virus work on a more structural and rulebound level.

I know you'll dismiss this as nonsense but i had imagined the possibility of Agito, being an ancient Unison Device from an era lost in time being able to access a more primordial control over fire or more likely the "element" of heat. Again, no canon support for this crazyness so don't take it all seriously xD

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Heat is a force that disrupts the conditions that allow snow to stick together. :P
Yeah but the snow melting is just a side consequence of the presence of heat, not it's intended purpouse. The EC effect isn't something as primary as heat ...the zero effect on the other hand seems to be just like what you're describing. The former doesn't cancel magic just because, it follows a specific process ...the latter seems to be the purest form of Anti-Magic (...or anti-matter as it can cancel any form of energy ...not just magic).

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I'm not saying she'd generate anti-magic particles. After all, she has a normal matter linker core, that only produce regular magic particles. But Starlight Breaker is a spell that gathers spent mana together; it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for her to alter her spell to gather those anti-magic particles after a tough EC battle, and turn their own energy against them.
I wonder if that could represent a danger to Nanoha or her equipement as the Divider are the tools designed to handle such kind of energies. If such a spell comes into existence i expect it to be some sort of "dangerous forbidden technique" for Nanoha ...only meant to be used as a very last resource ...altough, we already have Tohma "Divide Zero" Avenir to fill that spot this season xDU

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I wouldn't go so far as to say they are long past their good ole years... Signum is still S- rank, which is greater than most Bureau mages. Not too many reach those high ranks. And Vita is still AAA+, and the forwards would tell you all about how she's still a formidable threat. :P
Interesting because their current ranks in FORCE hasn't been mentioned yet but yeah, i doubt Tsuzuki will low their ranks. And they're only a threat to the forwards because of the formers lack of experience. Fate and Nanoha seems to had long surpassed both Signum and Vita by a wide margin by the time FORCE takes place. Those two are now filling the spots belonging formerly to Chrono and Yuuno on the battlefield xDU

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But with regards to the weapons, yeah, I see your point. In that case, I would be curious as to why Vita had a new weapon, instead of a modified Graf Eisen... unless she was keeping Graf as a backup, and just field testing the new Warhammer. If it worked, great. If not, she could revert to Graf (or Graf's modifications might not have been done yet). Teana's weren't, after all. And even things like the Strike Cannon haven't been fully completed.
I would love a scene where someone get their shinny AEC-toy destroyed in the middle of an important fight and is forced to rely on it's old and rusty magical device ...double points if someone manage to WIN while doing that.
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Old 2012-12-29, 10:43   Link #6850
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And then Beast Wars had a sequel in Beast Machines, which legitimately did suck because it was different.
Heh, yeah, them's the breaks. Although I didn't think it sucked too bad, but I'll admit it wasn't as good as Beast Wars. I think it had different writers, too, which is always a risk. Avatar: The Last Airbender continued with Legend of Korra, but most of the writers didn't come back. End result: Legend of Korra was fairly sucky. But yet again, some people liked it.

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There's always the option to end the series on a high note. You know, ending the show when it's still popular and interesting. That way you can guarantee a loyal fandom for years while barely moving a finger and then take your time to prepare something great for your great return (look at the very successful Evangelion movies, letting the franchise rest for a decade and then releasing movies every 3 or so years have worked wonders to literally "rebuild" the popularity of a formerly overabused franchise).
The Evangelion movies are mostly a reboot, which is another direction to go. Nanoha does this with their own movies (thus making a tidy profit). That way, they can capitalize on their property, without actually taking the risk of making something totally new. For me personally, though, I'm not too keen on seeing a series rebooted over and over. The only exception is if a reboot could vastly improve the animation quality and make the story tighter (which was what I was kinda hoping they'd do with the Nanoha movie, but it left out important story elements, IMO).

So there are people who like reboots, but also some who don't and would rather have a continuation. Hell, Sailor Moon is getting a reboot anime here soon, so you have that to look forward to.

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Some series ahs become classics without the need of going on and on forever. But yeah i kind of understand your standpoint, as a fan i always have encountered feelings about sequels or spin-offs, i always have the natural desire to see more of my favourite characters (i was very pumped up after the StrikerS manga special chapter for more than explained reasons) ...but said feeling also comes with the fear of getting a lame sequel instead (...my face after reading Ch. 7). So yeah, it's kind of a jeopardy everytime a sequel from an admired work comes out.
You can always look at it this way, too: The Nanoha cast handles many cases and situations, most of which are probably the standard magical variety like in A's and StrikerS. Those are just happening off screen in the years we miss. So, you can always turn to fanfiction to fill in those gaps, and just keep tabs on Force as a sort of "This is how the universe is evolving" Informational thing. Kinda like I do with reading Vivid as a technical manual.

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Yeah but that's only a way to channel magic, Mid and Belkan schools (as also other several magic schools in fiction) follows a strict formula full of codes and routes to perform "magic" ...but some magic users have the ability to cast upon said forces in a less methodical way ...almost like "wishing" for things to happen. In that sense i'm very eager to see how that Witch girl from ViVid fights and how her "curses" work. True magic can bend rules and disrupt logic while the EC virus work on a more structural and rulebound level.
You're thinking of more traditional magic, but Tsuzuki hasn't gone that route. He's detailed his own version. But curses could easily be the result of forcing magical particles inside someone's body, written with a special program that, say, locks up a leg and makes them trip occasionally.

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I know you'll dismiss this as nonsense but i had imagined the possibility of Agito, being an ancient Unison Device from an era lost in time being able to access a more primordial control over fire or more likely the "element" of heat. Again, no canon support for this crazyness so don't take it all seriously xD
Well, one possibility is for Signum/Agito to generate a ton of heat magically, becoming something of a miniature sun. The heat itself would be natural, so the EC person wouldn't be able to stop it.

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Yeah but the snow melting is just a side consequence of the presence of heat, not it's intended purpouse.
Natural forces don't have purposes; they just are. The consequences are just natural reactions to forces meeting. Same with a matter particle meeting an anti-particle.

I wonder if that could represent a danger to Nanoha or her equipement as the Divider are the tools designed to handle such kind of energies. If such a spell comes into existence i expect it to be some sort of "dangerous forbidden technique" for Nanoha ...only meant to be used as a very last resource ...altough, we already have Tohma "Divide Zero" Avenir to fill that spot this season xDU

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Interesting because their current ranks in FORCE hasn't been mentioned yet but yeah, i doubt Tsuzuki will low their ranks. And they're only a threat to the forwards because of the formers lack of experience. Fate and Nanoha seems to had long surpassed both Signum and Vita by a wide margin by the time FORCE takes place. Those two are now filling the spots belonging formerly to Chrono and Yuuno on the battlefield xDU
Well, I don't expect ranks of anyone to drop. The aces will probably stay where they are, so it's only the forwards who it would be interesting to see where they ended up. The only clue we had, was a sound stage where Hayate mentioned what ranks they were probably good enough to reach, at least.
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Old 2012-12-29, 11:30   Link #6851
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You can always look at it this way, too: The Nanoha cast handles many cases and situations, most of which are probably the standard magical variety like in A's and StrikerS. Those are just happening off screen in the years we miss. So, you can always turn to fanfiction to fill in those gaps, and just keep tabs on Force as a sort of "This is how the universe is evolving" Informational thing. Kinda like I do with reading Vivid as a technical manual.
We should look in the fans work to fill the holes on the actual story? I don’t think that is ever going to work because different fans, different ideas and that may not fit well in the ultimate change in the actual story so… how do I know what to look at? Even ignoring the fact that nothing on fanfiction is canon and is just a fans work with the source material.

Aside from that the Force manga is the direction the world of Nanoha is going, and that means less magic from what I can see and more science-fiction elements. To be fair if they didn’t use words as “spells”, “magic” and “mage” I will never even think this is a magic related world or manga.
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Old 2012-12-29, 16:24   Link #6852
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We should look in the fans work to fill the holes on the actual story? I don’t think that is ever going to work because different fans, different ideas and that may not fit well in the ultimate change in the actual story so… how do I know what to look at? Even ignoring the fact that nothing on fanfiction is canon and is just a fans work with the source material.
You just said it yourself: there are different fans and different ideas. There is no one story that will please them all. Although Tsuzuki is kinda trying with his three different manga stories at the moment. Seriously, compared to some sequels that only go off in one direction, you should be damn grateful that you're getting a variety. That means something for most everyone.

But despite that, no matter what an author does, he's screwed. Because there will always be someone like you, who whines about how the story isn't going how *you* want it to. You can't please everyone.

You need to start writing fanfiction, just so you can experience the complaints of your readers telling you that your story isn't going the way they want it to. Until you do, you won't really understand.

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Aside from that the Force manga is the direction the world of Nanoha is going, and that means less magic from what I can see and more science-fiction elements. To be fair if they didn’t use words as “spells”, “magic” and “mage” I will never even think this is a magic related world or manga.
As I've tried to tell you before, the world has always been sci-fi. I mean, we've known from season 1, that there are spaceships, many worlds, a universe-spannign space police force, technological devices, etc. Hell, it's barely magical girl since there are plenty of males with magic, too.

If you want more traditional magical girl shows, there are plenty to choose from. I can point you to some. As I mentioned above, Sailor Moon is getting a reboot, so you may consider jumping to that fandom.

But the magic ain't going away. It will forever be the power source our heroes draw upon. It's just being modernized into the 21st century, as it were.
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Old 2012-12-29, 16:51   Link #6853
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To be honest I will not mind a single story, instead of three, if he was doing it well. Variety doesn’t mean quality and I should not be thankful for it when I don’t think is working. As simple as that.

Someone like me? What that even means? When you write something and publish it you offer it to the world to see it and judge. Yes, you can’t please everyone out there but that doesn’t mean the ones who aren’t please need not to say it. I do write fanfiction, mind you, and I have receive critics about it and sometimes they even prevent me from doing a mistake so really, what is to understand there?

I will always say what I think about anything I want. If I like it, if don’t like it, etc.

And I hear about the Sailor Moon reboot, maybe I will go a check it out and other magical girl animes when they are out, who knows? But I am not leaving the Nanoha fandom. I still like Nanoha. I just say that the series feels less like a magical anime, that is a fact. Is not good or bad, is just a fact of the series. Magic really doesn’t play a role as most magic does, the unknown power of the universe and now works more like the batteries to everything the characters need. Removing the mysticism from the magic, this is just energy and could be call anything to be fair. That is how I see it.
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Old 2012-12-30, 01:46   Link #6854
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To be honest I will not mind a single story, instead of three, if he was doing it well. Variety doesn’t mean quality and I should not be thankful for it when I don’t think is working. As simple as that.
Agreed, this experiment with several Nanoha mangas running at once seemed to have a bad effect on Tsuzuki's writing abilities. It must be very taxing for him to write three different stories at the same time (and i didn't even counting the Dog Days manga) and it started to note. As i mentioned before instead of a single solid story we have three works that feel incomplete. I still don't understand the neet to rip apart Nanoha's elements into different sotries if one of the main strenghts of the franchise was the ability to play all those elements togheter in a very interesting way.

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Magic really doesn’t play a role as most magic does, the unknown power of the universe and now works more like the batteries to everything the characters need. Removing the mysticism from the magic, this is just energy and could be call anything to be fair. That is how I see it.
Indeed, even with all those elements Kaijo mentioned in earlier seasons he can't deny magic played a mroe important role and still keeped an air of misticism before StrikerS (and even during StrikerS some magical mistery was kept). In FORCE said sense is mostly gone and that's why i said it's slowly becoming your stereotypical mecha-genre show intead of the unique series it used to be. From what i can understand the Bureau and section Six could be replaced with the main cast from Robotech with barely a difference.
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Old 2012-12-30, 10:21   Link #6855
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The works may seem incomplete... because they aren't done yet! :P

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Indeed, even with all those elements Kaijo mentioned in earlier seasons he can't deny magic played a mroe important role and still keeped an air of misticism before StrikerS (and even during StrikerS some magical mistery was kept). In FORCE said sense is mostly gone and that's why i said it's slowly becoming your stereotypical mecha-genre show intead of the unique series it used to be. From what i can understand the Bureau and section Six could be replaced with the main cast from Robotech with barely a difference.
Actually, I can deny that. Force and the EC, are just one incident out of many. Just because EF6 is dealing with the EC, doesn't mean we don't have thousands of mages out on many different worlds, doing things. It doesn't mean that the cast doesn't use magic in every incident before, and after.

Look, with every order, you will have people that dislike that order. And those individuals will seek to subvert it. In this case, we have a magical order with the TSAB, and we had Jail, and now the Hucks and Hardis, thumbing their noses at that order. That makes Force very much like the real world.

But magic isn't going away. Once the EC is taken care of, RF6 and the TSAB will go right back to relying on mostly magic for all their other things.

It's funny that Sansker is whinging about the lack of variety in the Vivid thread, when we have variety of another sort in alternate fighters like the combat cyborgs and EC-infected. Either you like variety, or you don't.

Lastly, I'll note that magic is still being used here. Signum used quite a bit. And the Wolkenritter in general, using their Belkan style, still use it to enhance their bodies. They still use it to fly. If you want to call that using it like a battery, then they've been using it like a battery since S1.
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Old 2012-12-30, 12:00   Link #6856
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Again is the feeling of the story and magic in general in both stories. Season 1 did feel more like the classic magic with some science-fiction elements to it and Force feels nothing like that kind of magic. Everything is too technological.

On the matter of variety… no, you don’t sing with liking something. I like what works well and on ViVid I will like to see more of the magic styles, but that doesn’t mean that more is better in all cases. Force I don’t dislike because its lack of magic or the variety of fighters. I dislike because of other things, so really is pointless to bring that up.
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Old 2012-12-30, 20:08   Link #6857
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The works may seem incomplete... because they aren't done yet! :P
S1 and A's felt much more complete by Ep 7 than any of the new running mangas xDU

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Actually, I can deny that. Force and the EC, are just one incident out of many. Just because EF6 is dealing with the EC, doesn't mean we don't have thousands of mages out on many different worlds, doing things. It doesn't mean that the cast doesn't use magic in every incident before, and after.
It's the first incident where mages from the TSAB are forced to change the use of magic in favour of more conventional weapons. There's a reason why the AEC-equips are new technology ...if what you're saying were true the TSAB should be far better prepared for things like this and ...as Signum demonstrated, they weren't xDU

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Look, with every order, you will have people that dislike that order. And those individuals will seek to subvert it. In this case, we have a magical order with the TSAB, and we had Jail, and now the Hucks and Hardis, thumbing their noses at that order. That makes Force very much like the real world.
Exactly. S1 felt a lot mroe like a magical tale and A's like an epic story with a little few political/sci-fi elements thrown into the mix. FORCE is much more cinic, grey and realistic. Some people liked the drastical chance, other don't.

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But magic isn't going away. Once the EC is taken care of, RF6 and the TSAB will go right back to relying on mostly magic for all their other things.
According to FORCE supplemental material Anti-Magic is rapidly becoming mainstream among criminal groups so i don't foresee a good omen for that statement. Magic will grow less and less effective as a law-enforcing instrument from now on.

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Lastly, I'll note that magic is still being used here. Signum used quite a bit. And the Wolkenritter in general, using their Belkan style, still use it to enhance their bodies. They still use it to fly. If you want to call that using it like a battery, then they've been using it like a battery since S1.
Yeah Signum used quite a bit and see what was her punshment for ding that xDU And yeah, the Wolks are still magical beings, there's a reason why they're sucking so much in this new enviroment xDU By the way, their ability to magically enhace their bodies is mostly gone after years of suffering the decomposition of their powers. Also calling the use of flight as evidence for magic still being used the same is a pretty weak argument. Beforehand thei used their magical powers to develop their entire combat styles and then more ...now flight is just about the only useful thing they can use their magical power for aside of ...powering bateries -_-U

Heck, under heavy EC conditions they can't even sustain flight efficiently anymore ...The Fortress Unit comes with flight-assitant module to allow Nanoha flying capabilities when her magic is canceled. So yeah, magic has mostly been reduced to gas fuel.

I beg you to try and justify why you think the magical feeling of FORCE is exactly the same as S1 and A's...
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Old 2012-12-30, 21:50   Link #6858
Kurohane
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
According to FORCE supplemental material Anti-Magic is rapidly becoming mainstream among criminal groups so i don't foresee a good omen for that statement. Magic will grow less and less effective as a law-enforcing instrument from now on.

Yeah Signum used quite a bit and see what was her punshment for doing that xDU And yeah, the Wolks are still magical beings, there's a reason why they're sucking so much in this new enviroment xDU By the way, their ability to magically enhace their bodies is mostly gone after years of suffering the decomposition of their powers. Also calling the use of flight as evidence for magic still being used the same is a pretty weak argument. Beforehand thei used their magical powers to develop their entire combat styles and then more ...now flight is just about the only useful thing they can use their magical power for aside of ...powering bateries -_-U

Heck, under heavy EC conditions they can't even sustain flight efficiently anymore ...The Fortress Unit comes with flight-assitant module to allow Nanoha flying capabilities when her magic is canceled. So yeah, magic has mostly been reduced to gas fuel.
I belive this supports the premise of the story at the beggining. I never forgotten it because I knew it would be important: "Would you consider someone's encounter with magic forunate or unfortunate? I mean if one incident occured because of a particular magic, it would be the same magic that ends it." I believe Tsuzuki is setting events in motion to bring this statement into play again, by making magic as ineffective as it is now, as our heroes try to make it re-effective as best they can, and if so, is that a good thing?

Another belief I have is that since the dividers have displayed more variety than the AEC equipment, some of the cast will get infected as well and their devices will be modified into dividers due to the infection. Of course, that result is just a theory with no basis.
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Old 2012-12-31, 20:11   Link #6859
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
Another belief I have is that since the dividers have displayed more variety than the AEC equipment, some of the cast will get infected as well and their devices will be modified into dividers due to the infection. Of course, that result is just a theory with no basis.
Well, if we go by Hardi's dellusions abut infecting Teana, it may be possible and very interesting as well. Again, they wasted a good opportunity with Sigunum (seeing her infected could've been an interesting developement but is now late for that).

Let's see what happens...
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Old 2012-12-31, 22:02   Link #6860
Justin_Brett
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They don't even want to really use the implications of the main character being infected with it, Aki, come off with that. It's a bad idea.
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