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Old 2011-03-21, 15:07   Link #1201
Justin_Brett
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This is a story. Not real life. If you really think anything in this manga is meant to parallel real world situations, then you're giving it far too much credit.

Besides, wars have propaganda and millions of men. This is a group of seven people who choose to act like this for no apparent reason other than they enjoy it.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:15   Link #1202
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
This is a story. Not real life. If you really think anything in this manga is meant to parallel real world situations, then you're giving it far too much credit.

Besides, wars have propaganda and millions of men. This is a group of seven people who choose to act like this for no apparent reason other than they enjoy it.
Yet the core of your argument is that the personalities of Cypha and Veyron are 'illogical.' Illogical by what standards, exactly? Real life? No, you just discounted that. And it's perfectly possibly in real life anyway. Fiction? I've seen far stranger personalities in fiction, and many of them accepted, so not there either.

So what standards are you using to judge the writing quality of the Hucks' personalities?
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:19   Link #1203
Justin_Brett
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Illogical by terms of writing. If a character is meant to be sympathetic, paint them as sympathetic. If evil, do the same. You can't have it both ways, which is what Tsuzuki seems to be trying here.

Really, I find it kind of offensive that you guys seem to like comparing them to actual people in say, Darfur. I don't think they'd much appreciate it. What's next, saying Jail's attack on Midchilda was a lot like 9/11?
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:25   Link #1204
Keroko
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Illogical by terms of writing. If a character is meant to be sympathetic, paint them as sympathetic. If evil, do the same. You can't have it both ways, which is what Tsuzuki seems to be trying here.
Except if you want moral ambiguity, then you do want to have it both ways. And moral ambiguity has always been a staple of Nanoha, just never as strong as it is here.

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Really, I find it kind of offensive that you guys seem to like comparing them to actual people in say, Darfur. I don't think they'd much appreciate it. What's next, saying Jail's attack on Midchilda was a lot like 9/11?
*shrug* He did commit a terrorist attack at a giant tower.

But you seem to have completely missed the point. The point of my lengthy post was to show that the standards we hold writing to and claim things to be 'impossible' has grown to ridiculous standards.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:26   Link #1205
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I was gonna say, since when were we not allowed to have sympathetic evil characters?
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:27   Link #1206
Justin_Brett
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You can. But you can't mix The Woobie with Psycho for Hire. It doesn't really work.

And of course impossible things happen in real life. It doesn't have any rules of guidelines.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:34   Link #1207
Keroko
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The Hucks have never even pretended to be the Woobie. Touma and Lily took that role, but they're not Hucks.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:36   Link #1208
Justin_Brett
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But you know it's coming eventually. They have a loli for christ's sake.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:42   Link #1209
Keroko
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That they do. And when that time comes, we'll see the characters develop. How and into what? I don't know. And while I'm a great fan of theorycrafting, to call it bad before it is even close to happening is too much jumping to conclusions for even my tastes.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:44   Link #1210
Justin_Brett
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I think it'll work with some of them. For some, probably not.
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Old 2011-03-21, 16:05   Link #1211
Keroko
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And what makes you think all of them will turn into woobies?
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Old 2011-03-21, 16:09   Link #1212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
But if they don't want to fight, they should be neutral toward people attacking them too. That's what would make sense.

There's no real reason for them to be complete dicks to people they've never met if they're this conscientious, other than that they need to be villainous.
Oh yeah, cuz everyone treats those who would attack you with such care and respect

If some guy is charging at me with a knife, the last thing I'd do is invite him in for tea.

Being a dick to your enemies and showing that you don't care about them or consider them threats is great psychological warfare. It might deter them from going after you again.

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The Hucks are disfunctional. They aren't able to care about non-hucks, nor are they able to realize people care when they kill others.

The 'moe look' or whatever of the hucks looks to me like a "we are insane and not able to realize whatour actions mean".
They're not disfunctional. They function extremely well in their own social context. At one point they did have an aversion to killing, but like Fortis said, they got used to it.

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This is a group of seven people who choose to act like this for no apparent reason other than they enjoy it.
That's incorrect. They've come to enjoy it on some level, perhaps, but their entire motivation is one thing and one thing only: survival. They're not doing it for the lulz. If they were, how come they didn't kill Hayate or any other protagonist? They're not doing it for some desire for power. If they were, they'd have toppled the Bureau ages ago. All they want is the gather people with similar circumstances and live in relative obscurity. They have to attack trucks to get food, and have to kill people to keep living, and to them it's no different from us going to the supermarket and buying food so we don't starve.
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Old 2011-03-21, 16:17   Link #1213
Justin_Brett
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Oh no, I meant that they specifically act unpleasant to people that aren't them. Your idea of Psychological Warfare has merit, but isn't this the first time an organized team from the Bureau has encountered the Hucks? I doubt they'd have a plan for it in advance.

Quote:
And what makes you think all of them will turn into woobies?
I didn't say they would. But they'll probably try, since this is Nanoha. Otherwise what's the point of giving all the villains the same origin and motivation?
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Old 2011-03-21, 16:30   Link #1214
Keroko
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Oh no, I meant that they specifically act unpleasant to people that aren't them. Your idea of Psychological Warfare has merit, but isn't this the first time an organized team from the Bureau has encountered the Hucks? I doubt they'd have a plan for it in advance.
We have no clue how many times the TSAB encountered the Hucks, and it's irrelevant really. The psychological warfare has potential to work on anyone attacking them.

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I didn't say they would. But they'll probably try, since this is Nanoha. Otherwise what's the point of giving all the villains the same origin and motivation?
A link between members? Background for the individual characters? A method to advance the plot while explaining details at the same time? I can think of a great many reasons. All the numbers had the same origin too, yet four of them did not join the others in walking the path of the good guys.
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Old 2011-03-21, 16:41   Link #1215
Justin_Brett
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The fact that Section Six has so little information says it's in the few, especially considering what they usually do to Bureau mages. And anyway, if their actions are supposed to deter them from attacking again, it, uh, didn't work very well.

I thought they had a missed opportunity with Tre, honestly. She had more scenes than Cinque did, anyway.

They'll still undoubtedly offer an explanation, though, and it'd be difficult to do a backstory involving this Virus and not have someone consider even Cypha that. Veyron probably gets a pass if this rivalry with Touma goes anyway, which I'm starting to doubt.
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Old 2011-03-22, 02:36   Link #1216
Akiyoshi
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All of this left me questioning about one thing. The Huckebein are in search of a "cure" for their disease right? What exatcly they have planned when they finally find that cure? This can come in two flavors:

1.- "Yay! We're cured, we're normal humans/mages again" Which come with the nasty downside that they're now not-so-invincible criminal still pursued by the bureau and god knows what other people/organizations.

2.- "We're cured woohoo!, so what else? We've spend the last 6 or so years sluaghtering people, uhm... any ideas?"

I mean, what a bunch of assasins will do with their lives once "killing for survive" stopo being an excuse? if you ask me, some of them seem to be creepy comfortable with their current lives and powers(Cypha and Curren being the worst offenders). I guess that the "good news" Curren have are related to the famous "cure". I wonder if they really want to return to being "normal" or they simply want to find a way to exploit their haxed powers without that pesky clause of "killing people" to mantain sanity.
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Old 2011-03-22, 07:20   Link #1217
Justin_Brett
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Also, I was meaning to call attention to this earlier, but why do Vita and Erio have to step back to let Hayate drop an iceberg on the ship that's far away from them? Isn't there purpose there to protect her from attacks? It probably wouldn't have changed much, but that makes her look dumb.
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Old 2011-03-22, 09:04   Link #1218
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
All of this left me questioning about one thing. The Huckebein are in search of a "cure" for their disease right? What exatcly they have planned when they finally find that cure? This can come in two flavors:

1.- "Yay! We're cured, we're normal humans/mages again" Which come with the nasty downside that they're now not-so-invincible criminal still pursued by the bureau and god knows what other people/organizations.

2.- "We're cured woohoo!, so what else? We've spend the last 6 or so years sluaghtering people, uhm... any ideas?"

I mean, what a bunch of assasins will do with their lives once "killing for survive" stopo being an excuse? if you ask me, some of them seem to be creepy comfortable with their current lives and powers(Cypha and Curren being the worst offenders). I guess that the "good news" Curren have are related to the famous "cure". I wonder if they really want to return to being "normal" or they simply want to find a way to exploit their haxed powers without that pesky clause of "killing people" to mantain sanity.
I don't think they're trying to find a cure for the Eclipse Virus as a whole, just the "risk of being a lump of meat" part. They seem to revel in their powers. I won't be surprised if that's the reason for their total disregard of other people's life; they do seem to look down upon other people, including the loli - in fact, it's the loli that considers their atrocities as "nothing major" (remember her rant towards Hayate?).

Heh. Those who treated people as cattle shouldn't have been so surprised to be hunted like mad dogs. Right now making them Tranquils seems like a juicy choice for me
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Old 2011-03-22, 11:02   Link #1219
Akiyoshi
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Superiority coimplex? Mhhh...yes, it's plausible. They apparently see anyone excluded from their situation as nothing more than food. And those who try to oppose them as just "minor nuisances". I will celebrate the moment one of them gets punched silly in the face xD.
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Old 2011-03-22, 11:32   Link #1220
Sheba
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I don't think they're trying to find a cure for the Eclipse Virus as a whole, just the "risk of being a lump of meat" part. They seem to revel in their powers. I won't be surprised if that's the reason for their total disregard of other people's life; they do seem to look down upon other people, including the loli - in fact, it's the loli that considers their atrocities as "nothing major" (remember her rant towards Hayate?).
That's pretty much the reasoning of the Vampires of the Sabbat side in Vampire the Masquerade. Why angsting and looking for a salvation from a God who may not give a shit about Cain and his children? God's Curse made them the ultimate predators (well, with the exception of Werefolves), may as well enjoy every bits (and bites) of it.

And unless we are shown horrific body deformations, people going insane like those with a brain tumors, or impotence, Eclipse may as well be a case of cursed with awesome, to take TVtropes terms. Where awesome means, "Magic attacks means donkey piss to us and Eclipse allows us to dick with the inherent rules of the Nanohaverse."
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