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Old 2011-04-22, 17:52   Link #1801
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by AtomicoX View Post
Suddenly, redshirts are issued new Devices that merges with their nervous system, and subsequently removes their organic tissue until only a dead husk of artificial intelligence remains. The politicians go "WE TOLD YOU SO" and bans AIs forever. Now they only exist on the black market and the Devices we so love are doomed to a state of a dumb-smart state.
I think the question is about giving the red shirts more capable equipement or at least more closer to the main characters as apparently their incredible devices are not so hard to make.

Besides, the Devices we so love are already doomed anyway xDU.

EDIT: Page claimed for claiming pages(seriously, two in a day xD) ...and for Signum, just to keep the tradition xD.
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Old 2011-04-22, 17:54   Link #1802
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Perhaps in a completely different genre or universe. But Nanoha, as dark as it may get, at worse is a shonen. Things may get bleak in those, but it all works out in the end. But I'd still say it qualifies as a magical girl series, just a slightly darker than average one.

But yeah, fearing something having the capacity to control your actions is understandable. Albeit, those are extreme cases, and I doubt they could do it with an unwilling target. A safety device is probably built in to prevent it. I could see someone building devices without it and handing it out to control people, but I don't see that as a likely thing.

The devices we love aren't doomed. The threat of Eclipse, unless it's somehow mass-produced without the weakness', isn't going to be widespread enough to result in dropping magic as a whole. Further, antimagic, the kind the drones employed, is rarely at a level strong enough that it would slow down our aces enough. This is for, you know, the redshirts who can't deal with antimagic of even an average level, let alone high levels.

And if the red shirts had the equipment the main characters have, or some sort of mass produced kind, it wouldn't do them much good. You trade some capabilities with each device. Even a blank device has some advantages the others don't, such as the ability to just channel raw power, which is why Hayate has never used anything with advanced intelligence or cartridges with her device (of course, cartridges with her would be way overkill anyways).
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Old 2011-04-22, 17:58   Link #1803
Akiyoshi
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Perhaps in a completely different genre or universe. But Nanoha, as dark as it may get, at worse is a shonen. Things may get bleak in those, but it all works out in the end. But I'd still say it qualifies as a magical girl series, just a slightly darker than average one.
Funny because FORCE is supposedly NOT a magical girl series.
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Old 2011-04-22, 17:59   Link #1804
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Hence why I said, at worse, it's a shonen series. But we still have Vivid, and Force is a relatively light shonen series, all things considered, so I'd say it still manages enough magical girlness between that, the movie, and other things coming out that Nanoha, as a whole, is still one, even if some parts aren't.
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Old 2011-04-22, 18:07   Link #1805
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Hence why I said, at worse, it's a shonen series. But we still have Vivid, and Force is a relatively light shonen series, all things considered, so I'd say it still manages enough magical girlness between that, the movie, and other things coming out that Nanoha, as a whole, is still one, even if some parts aren't.
Hmm.. fair enough, but FORCE as a standalone story is making a big effort into subverting almost every trope used in the past, i almost can call it a deconstruction of the franchise. I don't know how to call ViVid tough, at first i thinked it's a reconstruction but it goes a completely different route than the first season, detaching of nearly all serious plot elements, it's a fun story but lacks most of the beef that makes S1 and A's exciting and awesome.

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And if the red shirts had the equipment the main characters have, or some sort of mass produced kind, it wouldn't do them much good. You trade some capabilities with each device. Even a blank device has some advantages the others don't, such as the ability to just channel raw power, which is why Hayate has never used anything with advanced intelligence or cartridges with her device (of course, cartridges with her would be way overkill anyways).
Ironically, Cadlefwich Techniques IS trying to marketing the AECs after the tests done by Secion Six are finished, in an effort from the TSAB to equip their corps with weapons hat allow them a fight chance against anti-magic on a desperate attempt to not break their prised politic of not using mass-based weaponary.
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Old 2011-04-22, 18:15   Link #1806
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That's why I said it. The AEC equipment may be used for now by the main cast, but it's, for one, a level of anti-magic far higher than any in the past, and probably any that will be seen again. 5th generation equipment also exists to allow them to reuse their old gear, the AEC stuff is likely being tested to see what they can do for mass-produced gear for normal soldiers, since 5th generation is much more finicky, and too difficult for an ordinary person to use.

True, but Force is but one chapter in a decently sized book so far. It is the latest one, but I think it's more testing the water to see what people like. But I expect once it's wrapped up things will go back to, at worst, StrikerS level in terms of darkness. Which isn't really that dark.

Vivid, being as light as it is, is probably a bit too much too, but it seems to be doing better than Force on average, so I'd say it's a better indicator of the direction the series would go. Not that light, of course, but perhaps slightly lighter than StrikerS, if I had to guess.

Personally speaking, I enjoy both, though I give Vivid the edge, though it targets my core interest. Not the silly little kids aspect, which, while amusing, is definitely nowhere near what I look for in a protagonist, but more so it's expanding the Nanoha universe. I'm looking forward to seeing a witch, and how it differs from a mage and a knight, as well as practioners of two other unexplored branches of magic, the ones Victoria and Sieglinde use, not even counting potentially more new schools we may see. Force so far only brings us Eclipse, which isn't nearly as much to offer.
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Old 2011-04-22, 18:36   Link #1807
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Hope tha you're right and the AEC's ended up to being just some sort of weird experiment made by Tsuzuki or Executive Meddling and he main cast soon call the other half of the main cast that are the old Devices xD. Don't take this as word but on the first promotional poster of FORCE(yes, the one who showed Signum and Agito aside of the main cast xDU) also includes Teana wielding the classic Cross Mirage in dagger mode, wonder if she's gonna find a way to use him in combat it will be pretty nice xD

About FORCE and ViVid i think the lack what the other have in spades and it's one of the main reasons as for why i still scratching my head confused about the descicion of splitting the concepts in half. ViVid is interesting, funny and charming but lacks conflict and needs to take itself a bit more seriously, after seeing Nanoha and friends saerching powerful ancient relics and fighting cosmic monsters a magical sports competition didn't look that amazing. As for FORCE is pretty violent and takes things way too hard, lacking breathing moments or reafirmation of the virtues of the characters making it too grim in comparission with any other installement of the franchise(save for maybe SSX, i didn't give it a watch yet so i don't really know) and the character i know feel a bit weird in this kind of enviroment.

ViVid at least compensates by focusing on expanding he universe and give some limelight to obscure or mistreated characters(also apparently adopting progresively the ones trashed on FORCE), i guess we still are yet to discover what FORCE will do to compensate for it's lack of emotional content. In resume ViVid is probably too sweet and relaxed while FORCE is forcing the conflict a bit too much. Hope both stories develope and reach the balance point past seasons(specially S1 and A's) have.

On las note, about the "differen school of magic" topic i also very glad to se new styles and expanding on the variety of ways a mage can develop, but reading it back to back with FORCE gives me a sad feeling because i know most of those fightstyles means nothing against Eclipse. Hope that if Einhart ever manage to appear in FORCE she has developed a way to get around the Huck's mage-pwning powers.
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Old 2011-04-22, 18:46   Link #1808
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Teana would be an odd one to use a 5th generation device, unless her mana management has gotten better. Mainly because she doesn't have the same level of mana pool as most of the cast, and is instead just smarter. Maybe she's efficient enough with her mana that she can use it anyways?

I'm decently certain we will see them with 5th gen devices again. It's definitely an experiment, of this I'm sure. Probably to see people's reactions. And I can't imagine people don't want things back to how they were. But I suppose we'll see.

I believe you mean in conclusion. :P And yeah, I agree with you for the most part. But 5th generation is still magic, and technically AEC is still fueled by magic, even if it isn't quite the same, I definitely agree. So I think they could do something against the Huckbein, if they were more powerful.

But I am looking forward to seeing them balance out a bit more, and become a little less... extreme opposites of each other. It's why I feel it's a test, to see what sells best. Or maybe he's going to use Vivid and co. for more light stuff, and the older generation for heavy stuff, even if it does return to magic.

And definitely can't agree more on the magic styles thing. I have been waiting for a while to see them expand into different branchs of magic. I just hope we get a chance to really see them do new things, and get a good feel for the strengths, weakness, usual devices, and all that fun stuff with the new schools they show off. And maybe more positions than the five they have so far, perhaps more detailed explanations of them too. Because it seems a bit shallow right now. Like how a Wing Back and Full Back differ, things like that.
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Old 2011-04-22, 18:54   Link #1809
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Because cartridges are risky, and according to booklets few people in the TSAB trust AI (Terminator fear).
Let's say this is true (I have no access to that booklet). Then why the heck none of the grunts have custom designed devices, made to suit their skills best? And I'm not even talking about truly tailor-made designs for each soldier either; there are numerous combat styles known within the TSAB, each with their respective weapons (swords, gauntlets, rifles, pistols, etc) - there should've been standard issue for each style or heck, at the very very least, one for melee and one for ranged.

And yet what was available for the grunt was ONE. FRAKKIN'. TYPE. In real life that would be the equivalent of giving unmodified M-16's for every kind of mission ranging from close quarter combat to sniping - no shotguns, SOPMOD kits, silencers, submachine guns, sniper rifles. You're telling me the TSAB are too stingy to properly equip their soldiers even though devices are (claimed to be) simple to made and cheap?

Grunts. Even the lolis are better equipped than them.
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Old 2011-04-22, 18:57   Link #1810
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Grunts. Even the lolis are better equipped than them.
More like the lolis are specially better equiped than them.
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Old 2011-04-22, 18:58   Link #1811
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It's probably easier to mass-produce and maintain one type, but I say it could simply be the artists being lazy, never running into a situation where it's needed, or just not that much variety that early on. As well, Midchilda is easily the most common, which focuses on range, so melee devices aren't too common, as I can't see Belka coming up too much.

But I expect they do have some differences, it's just... well, not really important. And the majority of them, presumably, use straight Midchildan magic. And the people who are better equipped are also just flat out better than them, so it's not too suprising to see them with better gear.
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Old 2011-04-23, 02:07   Link #1812
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Let's say this is true (I have no access to that booklet). Then why the heck none of the grunts have custom designed devices, made to suit their skills best? And I'm not even talking about truly tailor-made designs for each soldier either; there are numerous combat styles known within the TSAB, each with their respective weapons (swords, gauntlets, rifles, pistols, etc) - there should've been standard issue for each style or heck, at the very very least, one for melee and one for ranged.
There is no official explanation. I could go into theorycrafting and try to make one, which would lead to another ten page discussion since my theory would inevitably be filled with holes, but the real reason is simple:

It's easier to draw.

That's it. That's the only reason. They're grunts. Nameless characters. Redshirts. They don't need custom devices and personalized barrier jackets because they are irrelevant to the story. They only exist to fill the screen with more mages, and don't need the effort in customization that the main characters do.
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Old 2011-04-23, 02:38   Link #1813
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Another thing - it's standard form. That doesn't mean that inner mechanisms and programming aren't tweaked for user. And grunts aren't good enough to require device that function would affect form too.
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Old 2011-04-23, 03:50   Link #1814
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There is no official explanation. I could go into theorycrafting and try to make one, which would lead to another ten page discussion since my theory would inevitably be filled with holes, but the real reason is simple:

It's easier to draw.

That's it. That's the only reason. They're grunts. Nameless characters. Redshirts. They don't need custom devices and personalized barrier jackets because they are irrelevant to the story. They only exist to fill the screen with more mages, and don't need the effort in customization that the main characters do.
Well that's the meta explanation, but we're talking in-story right? Because I really doubt that devices are as simple or, more importantly, as cheap as some suggest.

Seriously, if they're really that cheap one must wonder why the hell the grunts didn't order tailor-made equipments on their own even if the Bureau are too cheapskate to provide them so.

Frankly, there's far more disturbing implications if the devices were really that simple to make and low in price but the bureau doesn't even bother to care for their rank-and-file than if the devices were actually somewhat complex so that only prodigies can self design them and those who we've seen self-making them got the necessary expensive materials due to their connections, whether by being high-ranking officers (or friends with one) or by prestigious family connections.

I mean, the TSAB already gleefully use child soldiers and penal units. Now apparently it is implied that they don't even bother to arm their troops meat shields with suitable weapons? Really? What's next? Comissars executing "cowards" who retreats?

"Men, Cranagan is being overrun by an army of death robots. All of Midchilda is depending on you. Here's a goddamned magic stick!"

"Sir, even the little girl living next door has better Device than this!"

"Meh, she probably inherited that from some high-ranking ancestor of hers."

"Actually, she made it herself by reading a fifth grade book and using stuff from the junkyard."

"..."
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Old 2011-04-23, 04:08   Link #1815
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Well that's the meta explanation, but we're talking in-story right? Because I really doubt that devices are as simple or, more importantly, as cheap as some suggest.

Seriously, if they're really that cheap one must wonder why the hell the grunts didn't order tailor-made equipments on their own even if the Bureau are too cheapskate to provide them so.
There is no in-story explanation. It's artistic convenience, that's all. Using artistic convenience to say 'well, since the grunts don't have customized devices that means it has to be expensive/difficult' would only work if we didn't have several cases of mages building their own devices or having them custom made for them free of charge.

Since we do have several examples, the similarity stops being an excuse.
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Old 2011-04-23, 07:45   Link #1816
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There are actually real world examples of people making their own weapons either by cobbling existing parts, or forging new ones. However, for many developed militaries, weapons and equipment are standardized due to logistics: it's easier to procure replacement parts and/or ammo en masse if everyone used the same weapon. The same also applies for maintenance, where you can more efficiently repair and maintain equipment if you're working one you've worked on thousands of times before, and shares parts with thousands of others. Finally, since these weapons are expected to change hands between users, having standardized equipment allows the weapons to be used by anyone. There's a reason they're called "standard issue".

The only times soldiers in a militant organization will utilize their own custom armaments and gear is if they use their own funding and acquisition methods to get their weapons and parts (my brother in the Army and his squadmates does just this - they'd ask us to buy and purchase the gear and even weapons they need here, then have it shipped to them).

Technically, many weapons are comparatively cheap - M-16's purchased by contract by the US Army amounted to about $420 per unit (more or less). And there are anecdotes of war-torn countries in South Africa where weapons are so prolific that they're cheaper than bread. I've also seen assault rifles sold for police and paramilitary groups here ranging from around the $500 - $1000 range give or take depending on manufacturer and retailer. Given the quantities at which you see the standard devices being used in the TSAB, I'm under the impression that your average magic device wouldn't really be that expensive at all.

Of course, if a mage was only a C or B-rank mage with no standout qualities whatsoever, what use would they have for a customized weapon with special features? And if they don't want to shell out the effort or the expense of creating their own weapons, then as long as their standard issue device serves them well, there's really no logical reason why your average grunt mage would want to have a custom device. For many, customization would simply amount to giving it easily applicable/removable cosmetic changes.
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Old 2011-04-23, 09:49   Link #1817
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I am kind of confused as to why giving them an Intelligent Device would... well, make them better. A cartridge system would, presumably, be better for them, but is dangerous and just too much to overall to charge, so that's definitely not a good thing. But the point of the troops at that level is to fire off lots of shots rapidly. A Storage Device would be better for the purpose of the troops, since it process' spells faster, if I recall correctly.
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Old 2011-04-23, 10:00   Link #1818
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I mean, the TSAB already gleefully use child soldiers and penal units. Now apparently it is implied that they don't even bother to arm their troops meat shields with suitable weapons? Really? What's next? Comissars executing "cowards" who retreats?
Two words: Tilda Lanster xDU

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
"Men, Cranagan is being overrun by an army of death robots. All of Midchilda is depending on you. Here's a goddamned magic stick!"

"Sir, even the little girl living next door has better Device than this!"

"Meh, she probably inherited that from some high-ranking ancestor of hers."

"Actually, she made it herself by reading a fifth grade book and using stuff from the junkyard."

"..."

First laugh of the morning, thank you Tiresias
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Old 2011-04-23, 10:26   Link #1819
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Arrow

Some thoughts, based on memory, so pardon me if I get some points wrong.
  • As explained in A's, the cartridge system requires a reinforced device, or the device will literally break apart from the sudden surge in magical energy. The implication here is that it is not easy to make such a device, especially since it is Belkan-based, and not Mid-childan.
    .
  • Despite being called an Intelligent Device, it actually requires more intelligence from its user than standard Storage Devices, because Storage Devices have automated macro routines for spells. Intelligent Devices still require its users to mathematically calculate the spells in order to maximise its potential.

    Recall the feedback Yuuno suffered when he tried to use Raising Heart. Nanoha and Fate are considered prodigies, and should not be used as a standard norm, or we might as well ask why isn't everybody a Stephen Hawking or Albert Einstein.

    Until we get a series about Mahou Grunto, the protagonists we are seeing are geniuses, simply because it is easier to make them interesting.
    .
  • It has been stated before that Mid-childan magic is primarily "shooty" based, while Belkan is enhanced melee-based. It wouldn't make sense to make melee sticks for the Mid-childan grunts when it doesn't suit the magic type at all.

Cheers.
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Old 2011-04-23, 10:27   Link #1820
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I always got the impression that wasn't normal TSAB operating procedure, but just a member of the TSAB having a bad day and saying some hurtful words. I'm decently certain that the TSAB doesn't condemn people like that, and officially they didn't in that case, but Tea always took what that guy said personally, of course.
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