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Old 2013-08-26, 07:17   Link #1
Fireminer
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The lasting value of an Anime.

So, I am just a newbie to anime, but there is this question has been irked me a lot: Does the makers of Anime produce their work with artistic (or time-lasting) value in their mind? Something that could standing before the Wind of Time? The philosophy, the art, the plot... I mean, how many famous shows from 70s-80s that you could name, excluding franchise? Just watching "Rose of Versailes", and while I am not a fan of Romance genre, I was just simply stunned by its beauty. But now... It is like it was forgotten....
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Old 2013-08-26, 11:01   Link #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
So, I am just a newbie to anime, but there is this question has been irked me a lot: Does the makers of Anime produce their work with artistic (or time-lasting) value in their mind? Something that could standing before the Wind of Time? The philosophy, the art, the plot... I mean, how many famous shows from 70s-80s that you could name, excluding franchise? Just watching "Rose of Versailes", and while I am not a fan of Romance genre, I was just simply stunned by its beauty. But now... It is like it was forgotten....
Yes and no.

Every artist — be it in music, painting, or even animation — probably starts out with dreams of creating lasting works of art. But sooner or later, he realises he has to pay his bills and put food on the table. The pressure grows ever larger once he has a family to support.

Then he realises the need to be practical: You need to first create a cash cow, before you can afford to dream big dreams.

(Unless he is born into money, or is a man of means. Some artists are, but most aren't so privileged.)

It's only the naive who think that art and commerce are mutually exclusive. In truth, those who survive long enough to make lasting works of art would have learnt, somewhere along the way, the importance of making stuff that sells enough to pay the rent.


And... just so you know, this topic is in the wrong sub-forum altogether. It more properly belongs in the General Anime sub-forum.
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Old 2013-08-26, 15:51   Link #3
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Yes and no.

Every artist be it in music, painting, or even animation probably starts out with dreams of creating lasting works of art. But sooner or later, he realises he has to pay his bills and put food on the table. The pressure grows ever larger once he has a family to support.

Then he realises the need to be practical: You need to first create a cash cow, before you can afford to dream big dreams.

(Unless he is born into money, or is a man of means. Some artists are, but most aren't so privileged.)

It's only the naive who think that art and commerce are mutually exclusive. In truth, those who survive long enough to make lasting works of art would have learnt, somewhere along the way, the importance of making stuff that sells enough to pay the rent.


And... just so you know, this topic is in the wrong sub-forum altogether. It more properly belongs in the General Anime sub-forum.
Oh, I know that fact! That is one of the things you learnt when being the son of a Movie Script Writer. And one of the reason I wrote this is not for anime per se, but for light novel. I mean, they could both raised the artistic quality and the money value, right? I have seen some better Fanfiction writers tinkled with their work, and produced something better in the end.

But another thing that I would like to discuss. I mean, art, music, dance, literature... all have their roots deep in the history of humanity, and not all of them served an entertainment purpose. But is it because of the first anime is aimed for recreational that we rarely seen something that could change the way we think?
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Old 2013-08-26, 16:02   Link #4
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Just because something is higher quality does not mean it will make much money. Most of the great works of the 19th century are really hard to read and require a high level of concentration as well as some application of intelligence. In comparison, lots of light novels are just that: "light" entertainment that can be enjoyed by a broad audience and without much effort, but it will probably be forgotten and not considered great art.

Now, how do those "great works" come about? Unless it's picked up by the academics accidentally (I suspect Kafka must have been like this, since his work is in fact quite boring until you actually discuss it), they must have some sort of mass appeal first, to be appreciated by enough people so that a smaller number can see a deeper meaning. Over time, new styles will evolve, and these "great works" will become old. People in the future might not appreciate the style anymore (such as the textwalls of Dickens or Dostoevsky), but since the work is remembered as "great" they still have the motivation to read it.
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Old 2013-08-26, 16:18   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Yes and no.

Every artist — be it in music, painting, or even animation — probably starts out with dreams of creating lasting works of art. But sooner or later, he realises he has to pay his bills and put food on the table. The pressure grows ever larger once he has a family to support.

And... just so you know, this topic is in the wrong sub-forum altogether. It more properly belongs in the General Anime sub-forum.

Your first input would make this a stronger topic as in "artist in general having lasting work". Perhaps if we target this discussion over that, and Anime serving as an example of art it would make this topic more appropriate for this general forum?


I'll try to make this sweet, and simple. I believe most artist are more intended to create the best of the "now". In other words making the best of what they can in the moment, and time. Not worrying about if it will be good in the future, but good during the time/period of creation and maybe trying to top what was good with the inspiration/skills they have.

Example: One cannot predict the future or certain success. You can have a gut feeling as everything comes, and goes. But you wont know till it happens.

I don't think Leonardo da Vinci, made the Mona Lisa for the intention of having a rightists future, but for the art to strive during the time, and moment. In order to create something that will last the sands of time you have to think about will it be successful at the moment, will it strive, does it convey the message, your artistic taste.

Many artist are there owns worst critic. Always pondering the what if's, and it could be better of there own work.

Look at The Beatles there intention was to make the best of what the time can offer, trying to out-wit what was before, trying to top there own work, and the ones around them. That intention was so strong that there creation became a world phenomena at there time, even strong enough to become a phenomena in the world today as timeless. There mind set? Believing your next creation/work will be the next best thing.


I leave this as my closing evidence

Spoiler for vid of support:




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Last edited by Afternoon Tea; 2013-08-26 at 22:16.
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Old 2013-08-26, 18:48   Link #6
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To answer your question: Generally, when it comes to content creation the commercial value is considered more important the artistic value. This is true for most Anime, After all it's a product that needs to be sold.

The level if artistic freedom the creators get is different for each studio.. Sunrise for example is well known for giving their creators a lot freedom to work with (Cowboy Bebop for example). Famous directors usually get more freedom than others when developing their anime.

Big franchises like Macross‎ and Gundam are also an exception. the brand value itself will sell the show and bring back the investment, and often they are considered as part of a much bigger marketing campaign to sell a more profitable product (Gunpla models for example). Because of that the artists who work on those big anime projects get more space to breathe but for the same reason the exceptions are also much higher.
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Old 2013-08-26, 19:43   Link #7
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Rose of Versailles is forgotten?! Almost every serious book I've read about anime/manga mentions Ikeda.

It just got licensed on dvd...at least here in the States.
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Old 2013-08-26, 19:52   Link #8
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Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Does the makers of Anime produce their work with artistic (or time-lasting) value in their mind?
This sentence sounds as if there were two, three people altogether making anime.
I think it's best to think about things like these in a case-by-case basis. I mean if you take a look at something like The Diary of Tortov Roddle, A Country Doctor or, for something a bit more "on the edge", Angel's Egg, I don't think commercial concerns were present or had any importance in the minds of the people who created those at the time.

That's obviously not the case with most of the productions that get made, and it exceeds anime.
Which is not to say there isn't any value in a commercial production.
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Old 2013-08-26, 20:01   Link #9
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Anime is primarily an entertainment medium instead of an artistic one. There's an artistic breakout every other year or so but any artistic value the audience sees from entertainment is usually unintended (sometimes a cigar is just a cigar). But the legacy of a piece is at the audience's mercy.
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Old 2013-08-26, 20:06   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
So, I am just a newbie to anime, but there is this question has been irked me a lot: Does the makers of Anime produce their work with artistic (or time-lasting) value in their mind?
Well, I definitely get the impression that Gen Urobuchi wants his greatest works to have a lasting legacy to them. While I do think that Madoka Magica is getting milked a fair bit for commercial reasons, I also think that artistic legacy is a factor as well. I get the impression that Gen wants Madoka Magica to become the Gundam of magical girl shows - In other words, something truly timeless that could be going on for decades and decades in one iteration or another.

Amongst Directors, Makoto Shinkai definitely strikes me as a man aiming for lasting masterpieces.

I'm sure that amongst every role in the production process (Director, Writer, Animator, etc...) there are people who hope their works will stand the test of time.

But it's probably like all professions - Some have specific non-financial goals in mind, while others just want to earn a living. I find with writers I usually can get a good sense out of who's aiming for greatness and who's just putting in enough work to cash a pay-cheque. This isn't just true of anime, as I sometimes see it in live-action movies and comic books as well.


Quote:
Just watching "Rose of Versailes", and while I am not a fan of Romance genre, I was just simply stunned by its beauty. But now... It is like it was forgotten....
The modern anime fandom tends to be pretty new-focused. That doesn't mean they have no appreciation whatsoever for older works (an obvious example of a respected older work being NGE), but rather that the discussion focus tends to be on recent shows of no older vintage than 5 years.

I'm sure that Rose of Versailles is well and fondly remembered by a fair number of anime fans, but it's just not discussed a whole lot.
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Old 2013-08-26, 21:35   Link #11
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Thank you for your input! I suddenly remember a French writer's quote, literary means like this: "The work of Art that give us the true of view of that era is a work that the creator care the least to that era." Or, an Artist has to be a bit selfish in his job to explore his and everyone's soul. And because the soul is a mirror to the outside world, so...

I wrote this thread after experience a dreadly feeling of repeative. Tropes again and again was mixed into medicore batchs of anime...

So, another question: What made an anime stand with time?
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:33   Link #12
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Honestly, it's hard to tell what exactly will have a lasting impact, and what will just be, uh, forgotten. Some of the "great" books of the past are, quite honestly, crap, and probably would be laughed at if written today (as an obvious example, Atlas Shrugged is, honestly, horribly written, and yet people look at it as fine literature.)

And it's hard to know what a writer's exact thoughts are. Maybe they just want to put together old tropes because they think it makes a great piece of art. Don't believe me? Just look at the fanfiction section on Amazon. Or my own written fanfics, for that matter (for someone who likes to criticize writing, I suck horribly at writing myself. ) Maybe we look at something as crap, but that doesn't mean the writer thinks that way, and it's a lot easier to criticize writing than to make an decent example of it. (Again, hi!)

Also, anime that become "huge hits" and last through time usually stand out from the crowd AND rely on what is popular at the same time. Haruhi Suzumiya and Madoka Magica are both great examples of this.

Which brings up to our next point...what does *last*, exactly? Haruhi was a huge hit back in 2006, fast forward to 2013 and not many people remember it very well. Madoka may be super popular now, but from what I seen, it's actually not that huge of a hit worldwide compared to some other anime from the past. So it's hard to know what will be a classic and what will be just hype (and quality has a lot to do with it, but it's also a poor indicator if used alone).
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:41   Link #13
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Much like fashion statements, it's impossible to tell if something will withstand the test of time. Some do get dug up, and we think that is what comprises history. But in reality it's merely a small piece of all that has occurred. Even the mightiest of canyons will be eroded away by rivers. The finest structures we make will crumble, and there's a good choice cockroaches will continue to scuttle around long after humanity is gone. Critics can hype a work up, fans can squee all the want, and awards can be handed out, but ultimately even the most earnest attempts are like building sand castles in front of an unending ocean. It's not something to be taken for granted. What the value is the appreciation of the finest sandcastles before the ocean knocks them over-- the relationship between the creator in viewer is forged in these brief moments and that is just something you can try, but it'll take many, many tries to create something unique out of them. It could really be said that humanity gets around with trial and error a lot.

Personally though, I feel that the impact of a work may not be apparent for the longest time. It's possible some may be more subtle in their effects. The show itself may not etch itself into the common mind, but sometimes it may pass its ideas to another anime that might become popular.

After all, where do ideas come from? You get them from many sources, so it's not often as simple as deriving singular sources of genius.

Basically, what matters is that the experiences that are created now which may somehow lead to other experiences in the future. That's what a work of art is about. Even if it affects only one person, that person may use it as for new ideas that may spread to other people. Knowledge is infectious, after all. And this is something no amount of hype or angry critics or deluded fans can ever create.
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Old 2013-08-27, 01:21   Link #14
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Well actually depends on what type of anime you're talking about.

Home media anime usually you'll only see a few masterpieces out once every year or few years perhaps that is classic.

Prime time anime doesn't really bother with it but those anime generally have a rather fixed user base. Since Prime time anime doesn't care about making profits and what not, I guess these anime doesn't apply to your question.


The essential thing for home media anime is how well received it is. The more well received it is, the more popular. Ultimately to see if those popular series last, it depends on how deep the content is(or how well the story is etc that will raise its re-watch value, which is what you're looking for). I don't know about anyone but it's been quite a few years since I bought Clannad BDs and I've re-watched Clannad about 3 times in the span of 5 years(Wanna experience the story again since I doubt anyone can remember all the details of an anime after a long while and having watched so many anime.

Everyone's view anime re-watching value differently. I for one, out of the 200 odd anime I've watched so far, I only find around 30 odd worth re-watching.
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Old 2013-08-27, 07:23   Link #15
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Oh. May you name a few for me?

And another though of "Creator's Freedom". I think it is actually harder to write something belong to a big franchise. Like Gundam. For the last decade, we have seen SEED, 00 and AGE. But the truth? They are just re-writing version of UC, Wing and Turn A. Beside, no one could re-create the magic of Tomino.
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Old 2013-08-27, 10:34   Link #16
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NHK seems the most willing to adapt serious properties like novels and mature manga. Of course they are more insulated from the demands of the marketplace than the commercial broadcasters. NHK has been involved with shows like Dennou Coil, Junni Kokki ("Twelve Kingdoms"), Seirei no Moribito, Kemono no Sou-ja Erin, Moshidora, and most recently Hyouge Mono. Most of these are adaptations of award-winning novels or manga. Most of these were produced by Madhouse and Production I.G., two of the best animation houses in Japan.
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Old 2013-08-27, 16:02   Link #17
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Oh. May you name a few for me?

And another though of "Creator's Freedom". I think it is actually harder to write something belong to a big franchise. Like Gundam. For the last decade, we have seen SEED, 00 and AGE. But the truth? They are just re-writing version of UC, Wing and Turn A. Beside, no one could re-create the magic of Tomino.
I can't name a few for you. You have to watch and see which are the ones you feel that deserved re-watching. I've already stated that everyone's view will be different so I may be bias to a certain company which you might find it just mediocre though I can tell you out of the 30 odd, so far I've picked all of Key's adaptations and the likes of Evangelion anime/movies etc... Oh Junichi Sato's work are also pretty worth re-watching to me. I don't know about you though.
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Old 2013-08-27, 19:19   Link #18
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Thank you! Of course Evangelion is in my list! Not sure about the other, but will sure give them a shot.

Oh, and how many people here have watched short, independent Animation? Pupet animation or something like that.
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Old 2013-08-27, 23:58   Link #19
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You mean from Japan, or worldwide?
From Japan, I think anything by Kunio Kato, Koji Yamamura or Mizue Mirai would be a good introduction, although there are a lot of artists I don't know about.
You could check out Winter Days, a sort of omnibus project similar to Ani*Kuri in which a slew of animators interpreted two or three lines of a poem (apparently it's some kind of collab poem where a group of poets improvise the lines), each part showcasing a different style and technique for animating. Among the mostly Japanese staff, there are also figures like Alexander Petrov and Yuri Norstein (his opening piece is probably the best in the whole thing), and even Isao Takahata contributed with a segment.
Oh, and it's actually directed by a puppet animator (Kihachiro Kawamoto).
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Old 2013-08-28, 00:34   Link #20
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I mean Japan, of course. Maybe that is one of the few thing that I love about Anime. Oh, I've heard about Kihachiro, but never known about that project. Thanks for that information!
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