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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Rating
Perfect 10 96 56.80%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 33.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 5.92%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 3.55%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-12, 10:46   Link #401
Hmm....
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I think ANY girls have potential to be MG. It is the matter of talent/not talent. Sayaka has a good heart but WEAK. She has no talent (at least not much) thus isn't QB target at first. It is not QB's interest to recuit a naive MG who will die pretty soon. He better off recuit a selffish MG who is capable of SURVIVING.

So is QB trying to kill a girl ? or the one who said we should mass recuit good heart girls despite her talent.



Also, I saw ppl compare MG bussiness to joining the army. That is not even close, not even at joining a gang level. Being MG is more akin to become a mercenary, a bounty hunter. When you go hunting bounty, you go solo. Other bounty hunter isn't your comrade but your rival. I don't think it's bounty hunting office recuiter's responsibility to tell you that you may be stabbed by your fellow bounty hunter. The caring officer may tell you that but if uncaring one doesn't, is it his fault ? nah.

Why can't bounty hunter in Madoka's world working together ? because the pay is pity. Many(if not all) MGs have trouble cleaning their soulgem. MGs are fighting for pray/territory. Some even resort farming the seed. That indicate there isn not enough seed around for everyone. You get HUGE benefit upfront for becoming bounty hunter but the job itself isn't well-paid job.

What can be found guilty from recuiter's side is he didn't tell us that "he will turn us into a cyborg" and that "we need special fuel to keep our body going". The latter one the recuiter kinda tell us before we sign the contract "you need to hunt down your target". He didn't tell us what happen when we run out of fuel though. The former one, the recuiter see notthing wrong with it. "You want to go out there fighting with normal human body ?". That is different value of morality.



Yes, the whole story we witness so far is about QB's grand scheme to recuit Madoka which can paint him as evil. He try to involve an innocent girl into this dangerous bussiness. That is because Madoka is both PURE and TALENT. Not someone he will see everyday. An indispensable personal for his HR career. He will use whatever mean possible to get her. The only thing I think QB is going too far (or rather the uncunning one) is to called Madoka out when Sayaka about to fight Kyouko this ep. What did he expect Madoka to do ? It is too obvious.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:08   Link #402
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Oh? Currently, we are seeing that MG's are the only ones who can stop witches. Do you have some evidence to the contrary?
Other then QB cannot be trusted? Just because he says it's the only way does not necessarily mean it is the only way. Consider how he has been withholding information and reveal one shocking bit after another, it is not possible that the extra bit that he have still yet to reveal is that there are other ways to deal with witches or that witches weren't harming society at all but rather it was QB that is doing it?

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Plenty of people go missing everyday. Plenty of people die in mysterious circumstances, or suicide, etc. Society does feel their effect, but life goes on. Homura summed up what the world would think of Mami, which isn't unsual in our world.

Also, consider the possibility that it is only because there are enough MG's around, that the witch problem is kept rather low.

So Triple-R's point is legitimate. As far as we know, we currently need to send young girls into an eternal struggle to make life safe for the rest of us. And I don't blame people for being uncomfortable about that; it's what makes you human. Just accept it and consider the possibility.
When I mean abnormal levels, i mean it is happening a lot more frequently then it does from the happenings of everyday. If the suicide rate is 0.2% among a segment of population and suddenly jumped to 5%, do you not think people will notice and becomes a hot news item?

I have mentioned the possibility that there are enough MG around. It equates to having a lot of MGs, which is not something that we see, considering that Mami was protecting a city by herself.

The whole saving the rest of us was info from QB. I already pointed out from what has been shown, the end does not really justify the means by how much has been sacrificed to save how many. Adding that to the whole thing coming out of a deceptive and manipulative creature, that possibility is simply unlikely.

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And do you really expect Gen to give you a nice happy ending where Kyube is the big bad and is defeated and everyone lives happily ever after?
No, no where have I mentioned anything about happy ending nor QB being the big bad.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
What do you suggest that he should have done? During Mami's death, and Sayaka's first appearance as an MG?
It's not what I think he should have done. It's about what he actually did. He withheld so much information from the girls and sit aside silently letting Sayaka and Madoka go on hunts with Mami, knowing fully well any given fight Mami can bite it and he will be in a situation where he can force he girls to contract with him, which is exactly what he has done. He clear did't care about the fate of a MG as he has absolutely no reaction what so ever to Mami's death. Then he gave the the empty words to both girls afterwards that he will leave them alone and shows up right when Sayaka despairs and temp her into contracting with him. During Sayaka's first appearance, despite Sayaka being there to fight the witch for her first time, QB's concern wasn't about fighting witches or saving the victims but contracting Madoka. After that, once again, he sit back and let Madoka go on hunts with Sayaka and waiting for his opportunity to coerce Madoka into contracting with him.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:19   Link #403
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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
I'm confused as to why you think I think that because I never spoke of not having Kyubey around.
Well, that's what I was responding to. The idea that Kyube being around is ultimately a good thing because there is less human death.

Quote:
Look at my posts. I've been talking about the kinds of MGs he recruits--how is that not in between, or a better alternative? There'd be less witches and familiars to deal with if he had MGs who just killed them all, but by not spending the effort to do that, he gets MGs who contribute to the problem--there is no guarantee they can even kill the witches they farm. Maybe good-hearted MGs will die earlier like Mami, and you will certainly need to recruit more of them, but how how many more innocent lives--the "net benefit"-- could be saved? Tying this into Arkeus's argument, by not trying to create MGs of good moral character, he is unnecessarily increasing deaths under his system.
He can only recruit girls that have magical potential, and that's a limited pool. Hitomi obviously didn't have that. So he is stuck with the girls he has.

And to be fair, he is trying to recruit an idealistic Madoka(which people constantly bitch at Kyube for, ironically), got an idealistic Sayaka, and had an idealistic Mami. Three girls out of the 5 MG's we know of, that would focus solely on witches AND familiars and not fight other MG's if they didn't have to. Only Kyoko has been downright selfish enough to interfere with other MG's, and Homura is still a wild card.

There is an old military saying: "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you would like to have."

Still, if the 5 we have are representative, that's a 60% rate of MG's who would focus on familiars/witches and prefer not to fight other MG's if they didn't have to. That's not a bad rate, considering the system.

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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Other then QB cannot be trusted? Just because he says it's the only way does not necessarily mean it is the only way. Consider how he has been withholding information and reveal one shocking bit after another, it is not possible that the extra bit that he have still yet to reveal is that there are other ways to deal with witches or that witches weren't harming society at all but rather it was QB that is doing it?
So, you'd hang out for a slim possibility while people are dying all around you? You'd prevent MG's from being formed so more witches are killing people? What exactly would you do, if you were in this universe? Beat the crap out of Kyube for an answer? Homura tried that, and it just drew Madoka and Sayaka in, and she failed to kill him. Kyoko grabbed him, but he didn't feel threatened. So not sure what you would plan to accomplish.

However, I do agree on questioning Kyube more, at least trying to get some answers. I primarily think the girls are stupid for not having done so. When I get into something, I like to have as much information as possible first. The girls are acting with emotion, and not logic, though.

Quote:
When I mean abnormal levels, i mean it is happening a lot more frequently then it does from the happenings of everyday. If the suicide rate is 0.2% among a segment of population and suddenly jumped to 5%, do you not think people will notice and becomes a hot news item?
It won't. Suicide levels rise and fall all the time. Hell, you probably don't even know about the Foxconn suicides(there wasn't much focus on it in the US, nor any outrage). If you do, as shocking as it may seem, their suicide levels are actually lower than some place like the US.

Quote:
I have mentioned the possibility that there are enough MG around. It equates to having a lot of MGs, which is not something that we see, considering that Mami was protecting a city by herself.
We don't know how big the city is, but I could certainly protect my town. It's not small, but it doesn't take too long to kill a witch; finding them is the biggest issue. Having other MG's around would actually help, such as when Madoka and Sayaka found one, and had Mami come fight it.

Quote:
The whole saving the rest of us was info from QB. I already pointed out from what has been shown, the end does not really justify the means by how much has been sacrificed to save how many. Adding that to the whole thing coming out of a deceptive and manipulative creature, that possibility is simply unlikely.
So, would you tell Kyube to go away, then? And then, as your loved ones are attacked and killed by witches, what would you tell them? "Oh, sorry about that. I made the only being go away that had the power to deal with these. But hey, you're better off being forced into mass suicides anyway!"

Quote:
It's not what I think he should have done. It's about what he actually did.
If you think his actions were wrong, then clearly you must see what actions would have been right. If you don't have correct action for him to take, then you can't judge him as incorrect.

So, I ask again: What should he have done?
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:07   Link #404
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what if homura is actually evil and kyubey is the good one? it can be otherwise or they're both on the good side but there's just a misunderstanding?

ah, i dunno, but it's likely that gen is playing with our minds. and i am bothered that he is actually pulling a homura-is-evil route here. DX
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:08   Link #405
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Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu View Post
what if homura is actually evil and kyubey is the good one? it can be otherwise or they're both on the good side but there's just a misunderstanding?

ah, i dunno, but it's likely that gen is playing with our minds. and i am bothered that he is actually pulling a homura-is-evil route here. DX
Well the difference between the two is that Homura does understand humans, but Kyube doesn't. I think this is a significant difference when weighing them on the scale of good/evil/etc.
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Old 2011-02-12, 20:51   Link #406
SagaraSouske
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I found it ironic that for someone who claim to not understand humans are so good at manipulating them.
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:00   Link #407
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just watched it...wow...so the jewel is actually the spirit of the MG...so MG needs grief seed to be alive then??

How about if MG decides not to fight the witches, so they will never need the grief seeds to clean their spirit?? will that work??
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:00   Link #408
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Even someone who doesn't understand humans can see when certain actions negatively impact the ability of said humans to perform their duties. So he just avoids doing those actions in the future. After enough MGs, he should have enough examples of what not to devulge that would drive MGs catatonic with insanity.
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:12   Link #409
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
How about if MG decides not to fight the witches, so they will never need the grief seeds to clean their spirit?? will that work??
I'm sure there has to be some other catch Kyubey hasn't told us... For example lets try to inject some logic into this here...
Kyubey did say (Or at least imply) that using Magic is what dirties the Soul Gem, And also when you find out the Soul Gems really are the souls and the bodies are just a shell, wouldn't that mean just living after making a contract would be using Magic? Sounds like a logical guess to me...
And also we don't know 100% why they have to keep purifying the gems.. Considering what Kyubey said about "Without having to worry about using too much Magic" it makes me suspect if it completely dirties it would stop use of Magic.. Also considering my last speculation there wouldn't that likely kill them?

Or going another way with speculation.. Ever notice how similar Grief Seeds look to Soul Gems?.. Maybe if a Soul Gem completely dirties it becomes a Grief Seed and in turn the Mahou Shoujo becomes a Witch..

So yeah.. Don't think it's that easy and I didn't expect to make a post this long
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:21   Link #410
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
I found it ironic that for someone who claim to not understand humans are so good at manipulating them.
While this is understandable viewpoint, for example take psychopaths in real life. They may lack empathy but many of them are very good at manipulating others. Their lack of ability to understand the feelings involved does not prevent them from recognizing behavioral patterns and which buttons to push.
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:25   Link #411
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
I found it ironic that for someone who claim to not understand humans are so good at manipulating them.
This can be done with logic, he has probably been around a long time and he can see how humans react to certain things or topics, what they like or don't like etc. He doesn't have to understand their emotions to manipulate them he has both logic and past experience with humans to go off of. That doesn't mean it will always work, but he knows what buttons to go for or things to say to raise his chances.
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:27   Link #412
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Eating off a plate dirties it. Using a shovel dirties it. Putting almost anything to use causes wear and tear and some degree of dirt accumulates. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that using magic causes some wear and tear on the soul.

Or perhaps pulling in magic to use also pulls in some "gunk" and since witches attract negative stuff (they are representative of the seven deadly sins so far), the grief seed works like a magnet to pull that stuff out. If the grief seed absorbs too much negativity, then the witch gets reborn. And Kyube doesn't want them to be reborn.

So, given that the nature of witches is essentially darkness and negativity given form, they are the one true evil in all of this.

Oh, let's not spread the lie of manipulation anymore, okay? Manipulation means someone actively takes control of events to push someone in a direction. Kyube may take advantage of situations to repeat the same spiel he's already honestly told us, but he hasn't been shown to manipulate anything. Maybe he is, but it hasn't been shown. At least you'd have some foothold to say "he takes advantage of situations!"
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:39   Link #413
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Oh, let's not spread the lie of manipulation anymore, okay? Manipulation means someone actively takes control of events to push someone in a direction. Kyube may take advantage of situations to repeat the same spiel he's already honestly told us, but he hasn't been shown to manipulate anything. Maybe he is, but it hasn't been shown. At least you'd have some foothold to say "he takes advantage of situations!"
You can redefine "manipulation" all you like to prove your point, but that won't change the definitions we use. He's taking "advantage of/encouraging situations", withholding information, etc... to manipulate people.
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:42   Link #414
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Eating off a plate dirties it. Using a shovel dirties it. Putting almost anything to use causes wear and tear and some degree of dirt accumulates. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that using magic causes some wear and tear on the soul.

Or perhaps pulling in magic to use also pulls in some "gunk" and since witches attract negative stuff (they are representative of the seven deadly sins so far), the grief seed works like a magnet to pull that stuff out. If the grief seed absorbs too much negativity, then the witch gets reborn. And Kyube doesn't want them to be reborn.

So, given that the nature of witches is essentially darkness and negativity given form, they are the one true evil in all of this.

Oh, let's not spread the lie of manipulation anymore, okay? Manipulation means someone actively takes control of events to push someone in a direction. Kyube may take advantage of situations to repeat the same spiel he's already honestly told us, but he hasn't been shown to manipulate anything. Maybe he is, but it hasn't been shown. At least you'd have some foothold to say "he takes advantage of situations!"
You hardly have to take control of a situation to manipulate someone. Simply pushing someone in the direction of your choosing using words is enough to be considered manipulation. In fact, anyone good at manipulating others will get by with the use of subtle suggestions. Little emotionally broken girls are particularly susceptible.

(Unless you mean he's directly manipulating everything behind the scenes, which of course there is very little evidence. That is not the definition anyone is referring to here.)
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Old 2011-02-12, 21:57   Link #415
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Originally Posted by RiderLeangle View Post
I'm sure there has to be some other catch Kyubey hasn't told us... For example lets try to inject some logic into this here...
Kyubey did say (Or at least imply) that using Magic is what dirties the Soul Gem, And also when you find out the Soul Gems really are the souls and the bodies are just a shell, wouldn't that mean just living after making a contract would be using Magic? Sounds like a logical guess to me...
And also we don't know 100% why they have to keep purifying the gems.. Considering what Kyubey said about "Without having to worry about using too much Magic" it makes me suspect if it completely dirties it would stop use of Magic.. Also considering my last speculation there wouldn't that likely kill them?

Or going another way with speculation.. Ever notice how similar Grief Seeds look to Soul Gems?.. Maybe if a Soul Gem completely dirties it becomes a Grief Seed and in turn the Mahou Shoujo becomes a Witch..

So yeah.. Don't think it's that easy and I didn't expect to make a post this long
I know it's not that simple, but just wanna raise this question to see if I have missed anything XD

Simply put, spirit needs energy to survive, just like how we human need food...since now the body means basically nothing to the MG, now the MG needs something else to survive, and that's grief seed...in summary, MG not only needs grief seeds to replenish the magic, but they would also need grief seed to live

just my 2 cents on this issue XD

and I am really enjoying this series
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Old 2011-02-12, 22:11   Link #416
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Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
You can redefine "manipulation" all you like to prove your point, but that won't change the definitions we use. He's taking "advantage of/encouraging situations", withholding information, etc... to manipulate people.
If you want to go with that definition, then everyone is manipulating everyone else. You and me are doing it everyday when we talk to people and attempt to persuade them to our point of view. So if you take that stance, then the word loses all meaning.

So, by you responding, you are manipulating me. And I manipulated you into responding. Madoka is trying to manipulate Sayaka, and Homura is manipulating Madoka, while also manipulating Kyoko.

Or we can agree it refers to a specific thing, that is the control of events and situations to force a specific end result.

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Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
. In fact, anyone good at manipulating others will get by with the use of subtle suggestions. Little emotionally broken girls are particularly susceptible.
Yes, poor girls. Poor helpless girls. We should all know that women are a weaker sex and thus vulnerable to this type of forthright honest display of intentions. I mean, you tell someone outright what you want, and the poor weak women have no choice but to obey.

Look, you have a perfectly good beef with Kyube attempting to use situations that were happening already. Don't ruin it by trying to grab more, otherwise your position begins to look silly.

Your friend is going to do something stupid.

Me: "Your friend is going to do something stupid, and could possibly kill himself!"
You: "Oh no, I have to go stop him before it's too late!"

Hey, I just manipulated you!
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Old 2011-02-12, 22:33   Link #417
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
"he takes advantage of situations!"
Situation he seems to like to create himself in ways that are becoming less and less subtle.
In this episode,why go get Madoka when Sayaka goes to fight Kyoko?First it's none of her business (even Sayaka says so in the episode),and second she can't do anything about it......unless she becomes a magical girl,which is what he wants. (Or throw her soulgem away,but it seems he never expected her to do that)

Quote:
You and me are doing it everyday when we talk to people and attempt to persuade them to our point of view.
If I'm knowingly withholding information from you in an attempt to persuade you then yes I'm manipulating you

edit:and I'll add,yes it happens everyday.Commercials are a prime exemple,some would say politicians make a career out of this (though that's a whole other debate)
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Old 2011-02-12, 22:47   Link #418
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Situation he seems to like to create himself in ways that are becoming less and less subtle.
In this episode,why go get Madoka when Sayaka goes to fight Kyoko?First it's none of her business (even Sayaka says so in the episode),and second she can't do anything about it......unless she becomes a magical girl,which is what he wants. (Or throw her soulgem away,but it seems he never expected her to do that)
So, are you telling me that if your friend or girlfriend was going to do something stupid that could get himself killed, you wouldn't try to stop him? That you wouldn't want to know about it? Kyube's actions could be seen as him informing Madoka, because he knows that Madoka would want to know.

Someone telling me something I want to know, is hardly manipulating me. And yes, we know Kyube wants Madoka as an MG. Everyone knows it. "Manipulations" don't work as well if you're being bluntly honest about it.

But I suppose by these definitions we can conclude Homura is manipulating Madoka as well, since she clearly stated her goal and then withheld information, while also showing up at convenient times.

Quote:
edit:and I'll add,yes it happens everyday.Commercials are a prime exemple,some would say politicians make a career out of this (though that's a whole other debate)
So, we accusing Kyube of something we ourselves do everyday, eh? But I suppose if we all do it, then it can't be bad, especially if everyone is doing it in the series. Homura withholding information, Madoka withholding information, etc.
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Old 2011-02-12, 22:58   Link #419
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Here are some common definitions of manipulation. The relevant one is in bold.

manipulate (məˈnɪpjʊˌleɪt)

vb
1. ( tr ) to handle or use, esp with some skill, in a process or action: to manipulate a pair of scissors
2. to negotiate, control, or influence (something or someone) cleverly, skilfully, or deviously
3. to falsify (a bill, accounts, etc) for one's own advantage
4. (in physiotherapy) to examine or treat manually, as in loosening a joint

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If you want to go with that definition, then everyone is manipulating everyone else. You and me are doing it everyday when we talk to people and attempt to persuade them to our point of view. So if you take that stance, then the word loses all meaning.

So, by you responding, you are manipulating me. And I manipulated you into responding. Madoka is trying to manipulate Sayaka, and Homura is manipulating Madoka, while also manipulating Kyoko.

Or we can agree it refers to a specific thing, that is the control of events and situations to force a specific end result.
This is a complete straw man. Or a lack of reading comprehension.

I never said that every little suggestion is a manipulation. I said that the use of suggestions are enough, that is a sufficient condition, to be considered manipulation. This does not imply that every suggestion is an act of manipulation.

The fact that Kyube only uses words does not make it not manipulation. He deliberately misleads the girls to convince them to become magical girls. Furthermore, he pushes and prods at every opportunity selectively attacking their weaknesses and desires. He also suggestively pushes them when they're under extreme emotional duress. Effective manipulation is all about taking advantage of situations and controlling the emotions of the person in question.

To a certain extent some of those interaction you mentioned, Homura/Kyoko in particular, could be considered manipulation. But most of those aren't attempts at controlling but convincing. Note Homura trying to keep Kyoko in check by giving her satisfactory reason to obey her is a positive use of manipulation. Manipulation itself is merely a method of controlling people it is neither good nor evil.

Quote:
Yes, poor girls. Poor helpless girls. We should all know that women are a weaker sex and thus vulnerable to this type of forthright honest display of intentions. I mean, you tell someone outright what you want, and the poor weak women have no choice but to obey.
Another straw man I never said anything about little girls more or less susceptible to manipulation than boys. It so happens that all the relevant characters are emotionally broken young girls, which you conveniently forgot.

Quote:
Look, you have a perfectly good beef with Kyube attempting to use situations that were happening already. Don't ruin it by trying to grab more, otherwise your position begins to look silly.

Your friend is going to do something stupid.

Me: "Your friend is going to do something stupid, and could possibly kill himself!"
You: "Oh no, I have to go stop him before it's too late!"

Hey, I just manipulated you!
And more straw men. Tearing down an argument I didn't make.

(Do you have to be so goddamn defensive when someone doesn't agree with your opinion to the point where you're willing to misinterpret everything they write? Stop putting words in other people's mouths and setting up straw men that you so willfully tear apart.)
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:13   Link #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
Here are some common definitions of manipulation. The relevant one is in bold.

manipulate (məˈnɪpjʊˌleɪt)

— vb
1. ( tr ) to handle or use, esp with some skill, in a process or action: to manipulate a pair of scissors
2. to negotiate, control, or influence (something or someone) cleverly, skilfully, or deviously
3. to falsify (a bill, accounts, etc) for one's own advantage
4. (in physiotherapy) to examine or treat manually, as in loosening a joint
You're getting better, since Kyube is negotiating, but not controlling. Influencing is something we all do; even now, you're attempting to influence me. Thus, are you guilty of manipulation?

Quote:
I never said that every little suggestion is a manipulation. I said that the use of suggestions are enough, that is a sufficient condition, to be considered manipulation. This does not imply that every suggestion is an act of manipulation.
Hmm, strange.. first you say that the use of suggestions is enough to be considered manipulations. Then you say that not every suggestion is an act of manipulation. You'd do better if you didn't contradict yourself.

Quote:
The fact that Kyube only uses words does not make it not manipulation. He deliberately misleads the girls to convince them to become magical girls.
Deliberately mislead? No. He didn't go into details, but ultimately those details didn't matter anyway. Do you tell everyone every single detail? If someone asks, "How are you?" and you just say "I'm fine" are you manipulating them? After all, you didn't share all the details and thus you deliberately mislead as to your exact condition.

Quote:
Furthermore, he pushes and prods at every opportunity selectively attacking their weaknesses and desires. He also suggestively pushes them when they're under extreme emotional duress. Effective manipulation is all about taking advantage of situations and controlling the emotions of the person in question.
You're seeing what you want to see there, not necessarily what is. I mean, look at yourself: you're arguing that someone who is being straightforward and honest about what he wants, is someone who is manipulating. Honesty is manipulation, comrade. War is peace. Ignorance is slavery.

And yes, you'll respond with the whole "lie by omission" thing, but that's not relevant. We're talking about what Kyube wants, not the minor details of something.

Quote:
To a certain extent some of those interaction you mentioned, Homura/Kyoko in particular, could be considered manipulation. But most of those aren't attempts at controlling but convincing.
Except, Kyube is not controlling either. By your own definition above, Homura and Kyoko are influencing people, which is enough by *your* standards to be manipulation. Apply your own standard evenly. If Homura and Kyoko are "convincing" then so is Kyube.

Quote:
Another straw man I never said anything about little girls more or less susceptible to manipulation than boys. It so happens that all the relevant characters are emotionally broken young girls, which you conveniently forgot.
I didn't. You were the one who specified girls. If you had said "emotionally broken people" that might have been different. But there is only so much you can do to coddle someone; everyone is personally responsible for their own decisions. The girls were informed of enough details to know what they were getting into. They knew they'd have to fight, they knew they'd be fighting until they died, and they knew that death was a very real possibility. Kyube, Mami, and Homura all made that abundantly clear to them, and the details we learned later really don't change anything.

Quote:
And more straw men. Tearing down an argument I didn't make.
Okay, then, you're saying that Kyube informing Madoka of Sayaka being in trouble, isn't manipulation then? Good. Glad we can agree on that. =)

Quote:
(Do you have to be so goddamn defensive when someone doesn't agree with your opinion to the point where you're willing to misinterpret everything they write? Stop putting words in other people's mouths and setting up straw men that you so willfully tear apart.)
I could say that you seem rather defensive, too, resorting to that kind of accusation. But I find it unhelpful to point out such things, preferring to stick to the argument at hand.

I'm just applying your standard equally. It's not a standard I would use, because despite definitions, words have very clear meanings. I could pull definitions from other sources that are worded differently. But we all know how loaded certain words can be. As a logical person myself, I know that words are simply words. But certain words are used to interject specific emotions, especially in places where other descriptors are more accurate.

Thus, "taking advantage of a situation" is more apt to say than "manipulation." The latter implies some degree of control over bringing the situation to pass, when we've seen nothing of the sort.
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