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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Rating
Perfect 10 96 56.80%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 33.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 5.92%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 3.55%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-12, 23:22   Link #421
John Smith
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Being enough to be considered something doesn't mean it definitely is something. Is English your second or third language? There seems to be a language barrier here.

For example,

A square is a quadrilateral with four right angles. Knowing that a polygon satisfies these conditions is enough for us to consider the possibility that it is a square but it might not be one. It could be a rectangle whose perpendicular sides are not even.

Edit: I wouldn't be half so defensive if you wrote in a less aggressive manner. You needlessly attack the other poster. Did you really have to imply I was being sexist when I wrote, "emotionally broken little girls" even though it was a perfectly within the context of the story?
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:28   Link #422
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Must you continually question if there is some issue with someone else? Could not the possibility be that you aren't being clear enough, or understanding what is being said?

I understand, though. We all think we are coming across clearly, but the problem with communication is that everyone receives everything differently. So if there is an issue, then we can work on clarifying and getting to the root of the problem.

Or we can just accuse other people of problems. It is the easier choice.
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:30   Link #423
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
So, are you telling me that if your friend or girlfriend was going to do something stupid that could get himself killed, you wouldn't try to stop him? That you wouldn't want to know about it? Kyube's actions could be seen as him informing Madoka, because he knows that Madoka would want to know.

Someone telling me something I want to know, is hardly manipulating me. And yes, we know Kyube wants Madoka as an MG. Everyone knows it. "Manipulations" don't work as well if you're being bluntly honest about it.
You're right," Kyube's actions could be seen as him informing Madoka, because he knows that Madoka would want to know." and yes "we know Kyube wants Madoka as an MG. Everyone knows it."

What everybody including QB also knows is that Madoka doesn't want to be one,so how do you get her to be one?You create a situation you can take advantage of (= you get madoka to accept being a magical girl).
What is that situation?Needing to save her friend's life.Madoka is a very kind girl who would definatly try to stop her friend from getting killed,and she has only one option to do that:become a magical girl.
QB knows this that's why he jumps on the occasion (kyoko fighting sayaka) to create another occasision,the one he wants:madoka witnessing that fight.

Quote:
But I suppose by these definitions we can conclude Homura is manipulating Madoka as well, since she clearly stated her goal and then withheld information, while also showing up at convenient times.
Well when withholding information helps you reach your stated goal (QB's case) yes it's manipulation.
when withholding information is counterproductive and doesn't help you reach your stated goal at all (Homura's case) no it's not,it is however intriguing,or a major brainfart.



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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
So, we accusing Kyube of something we ourselves do everyday, eh? But I suppose if we all do it, then it can't be bad, especially if everyone is doing it in the series. Homura withholding information, Madoka withholding information, etc.
Maybe others have,but I certainly don't view Kyube as evil just because I think he's manipulative,to me that just means I wouldn't trust him,like I wouldn't trust the character L from death note to be telling me the whole truth even if I'm working with him.
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:40   Link #424
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I find myself intrigued by Kyoko's "relationship advice" to Sayaka. In no uncertain terms, she says that the best way to get what she wants is to do the exact opposite of what Sayaka did, and injure her potential love interest so that he "needs" her. I know this was to rile up Sayaka, but I see the potential for foreshadowing something that I know others have already predicted.

It's established that Kyoko's got the right attitude for surviving in the world that the characters find themselves in. Cynicism rules the day for the most part. Because of this I'm now with the camp that predicts Kamijo will quickly lose whatever interest he may have had in Sayaka now that he's independent. It's probably already happened, she just doesn't know it yet.

I do wonder though, if/when Sayaka does realize that she's lost him, how stoically will she take it? A scorned MG who feels she's lost everything and gained nothing could be tragically dangerous to both of them. However, if her wish was legitimately selfless, there's a lot of ways that they could go with it, depending on how closely they want to keep with the spirit of Goethe's Faust. Unless that too is a red herring.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is... uh... *throws arms up in the air*
See ya next week, I guess.
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:43   Link #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
What everybody including QB also knows is that Madoka doesn't want to be one,so how do you get her to be one?You create a situation you can take advantage of (= you get madoka to accept being a magical girl).
How did Kyube create that situation? Kyoko went to challenge and provoke Sayaka on her own. Sayaka decided to fight. Kyube even said, "I could tell her it would be reckless, but in her state of mind, she wouldn't listen" or something like that. One thing that is being made very clear to the audience, is that Kyube is near-powerless when it comes to these girls. He can create them, but that's about it. He can't talk them out of anything, so how can he be expected to talk them into it?

Manipulation also implies a heavy-handedness, and that the target was almost helpless against it, and had no choice but to go along. The problem with that, is then you remove personal responsibility from the equation. We are each responsible for our choices. It was up to Sayaka and Madoka to decide what they wanted to do. It was up to them to ask for more information (and I've been calling them stupid for awhile now, for not grilling Kyube).

Instead, John is making it sound like Madoka and Sayaka are helpless before Kyube. If they truly were, Madoka would have become an MG in the second episode. Face it, he's just not the suave talker he's being made out to be. If he was so good, he'd have Madoka by now. But she's making her own choices, just as Sayaka is.

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Well when withholding information helps you reach your stated goal (QB's case) yes it's manipulation.
There are obviously many changes that and details that happen when one becomes an MG. Whose responsibility is it to find those out prior to signing up? Let's say you come around and say you have a delicious apple that will make me feel better for $10, and I buy it off you. After eating half of it, I realize that you didn't tell me it was a Granny Smith brand apple, and thus get all upset at you. Can I blame you for withholding vital information? Or is it my problem because I didn't properly ask what kind of apple it was?

Quote:
when withholding information is counterproductive and doesn't help you reach your stated goal at all (Homura's case) no it's not,it is however intriguing,or a major brainfart.
Even ignoring the withholding information angle, Homura is still manipulating Madoka. She did that by trying to "influence" her, if we use the terms you guys are going by. The withholding information part becomes more interesting, because Homura is (apparently) human, and because it contradicts with her stated goal, forces us to reevaluate her motives and intentions.

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Maybe others have,but I certainly don't view Kyube as evil just because I think he's manipulative,to me that just means I wouldn't trust him,like I wouldn't trust the character L from death note to be telling me the whole truth even if I'm working with him.
I's interesting, though. Kyube has been straight up with what he wants and what his goals are. Do we really view people who tell us honestly what they want, as being manipulative? They tell the truth, and thus we distrust them for that?
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:44   Link #426
John Smith
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Must you continually question if there is some issue with someone else? Could not the possibility be that you aren't being clear enough, or understanding what is being said?

I understand, though. We all think we are coming across clearly, but the problem with communication is that everyone receives everything differently. So if there is an issue, then we can work on clarifying and getting to the root of the problem.

Or we can just accuse other people of problems. It is the easier choice.
I'll admit I was too aggressive. Lets just let this go to rest.

The word enough in the context I used implies what I meant in the example with the squares and rectangles does that clear everything up?

The fact that Kyube only uses words does not suggest in either way that Kyube manipulated or did not manipulate anyone. Is that easier to understand?

I apologize if my writing style is confusing.
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Old 2011-02-12, 23:49   Link #427
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Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
I'll admit I was too aggressive. Lets just let this go to rest.

The word enough in the context I used implies what I meant in the example with the squares and rectangles does that clear everything up?

The fact that Kyube only uses words does not suggest in either way that Kyube manipulated or did not manipulate anyone. Is that easier to understand?

I apologize if my writing style is confusing.
It does a bit. I believe I see where you are coming from, in that you believe simply using words and stating one's intention, is supposed to be manipulation. It makes me scratch my head, though.

A salesman will be quite honest that he wants to sell you a TV. And he may tell you on several different occasions that he can sell you one cheap. Is he being manipulative? I have a feeling you will say yes, but I'd have to say no. He's being honest about what he wants.

We take it one further, and I finally decide to buy a TV from him, and so take the one he points out. Later on, I discover that the remote control only works from 5 feet away, and I get upset that I wasn't told that. But whose fault is it? The salesman for not telling me? Or me for not doing proper research on what I'm buying? If I take that TV back and complain, they aren't legally obliged to take it back. The courts will say that I bought and paid for it, and I can't just take the transaction back.

The salesman didn't manipulate me, nor do any wrong.
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Old 2011-02-13, 00:19   Link #428
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Confirmed it seems, Walpurgis night is indeed the prolog in episode 1:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brocken_spectre (see pic above)

Walpurgis Night (in German folklore) the night of 30 April (May Day's eve), when witches meet on the Brocken mountain and hold revels with their gods... Brocken is the highest of the Harz Mountains of north central Germany. It is noted for the phenomenon of the Brocken spectre and for witches' revels which reputedly took place there on Walpurgis night.
—Oxford Phrase & Fable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night
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Old 2011-02-13, 00:29   Link #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
How did Kyube create that situation? Kyoko went to challenge and provoke Sayaka on her own. Sayaka decided to fight. Kyube even said, "I could tell her it would be reckless, but in her state of mind, she wouldn't listen" or something like that. One thing that is being made very clear to the audience, is that Kyube is near-powerless when it comes to these girls. He can create them, but that's about it. He can't talk them out of anything, so how can he be expected to talk them into it?
Looks like I didn't make myself clear,you're right,but I never said he created this situation "Sayaka fights Kyoko",the situation he created is madoka being there to see that fight:he's fully responsible for that,if he hadn't gone to see madoka she would have never been there.


Quote:
Manipulation also implies(...) that the target was almost helpless against it, and had no choice but to go along.
Indeed,that's the only way you're going to get Madoka to be a magical girl because she really doesn't want to unless she has to,that's why making her witness a fight that her friend has no chance to win is a good way to make her have no choice but become a MG :she's a kind girl that will do something that she really doesn't want to so she can save her friend.But Madoka actually tried another way:throw her soul gem away,turns out that wasn't a really good idea.

edit: I actually don't quite agree with the statement "that the target was almost helpless against it, and had no choice but to go along." but rather that the target is in a state of mind where he/she thinks that they have no choice but to go along but that might or might not be the case.

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Face it, he's just not the suave talker he's being made out to be. If he was so good, he'd have Madoka by now
He had Madoka at episode 3 and 5 if Homura wasn't there,he might have had her again at episode 6 if Homura wasn't there again.


Quote:
Can I blame you for withholding vital information? Or is it my problem because I didn't properly ask what kind of apple it was?
How about both?I blame him and find him manipulative and I slap myself on the head because I should have known better.



Quote:
She did that by trying to "influence" her, if we use the terms you guys are going by.
I can't speak for the others but to me influence alone isn't enough,it's influencing someone using shady methods like withholding information,so no,you can't throw out the withholding information part


Quote:
Do we really view people who tell us honestly what they want, as being manipulative? They tell the truth, and thus we distrust them for that?
We might end up disagreeing on this but you lose all my trust if you withhold information,I also get mad at myself for not asking for more info (see you apple question above)
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Old 2011-02-13, 00:35   Link #430
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It does a bit. I believe I see where you are coming from, in that you believe simply using words and stating one's intention, is supposed to be manipulation. It makes me scratch my head, though.

A salesman will be quite honest that he wants to sell you a TV. And he may tell you on several different occasions that he can sell you one cheap. Is he being manipulative? I have a feeling you will say yes, but I'd have to say no. He's being honest about what he wants.

We take it one further, and I finally decide to buy a TV from him, and so take the one he points out. Later on, I discover that the remote control only works from 5 feet away, and I get upset that I wasn't told that. But whose fault is it? The salesman for not telling me? Or me for not doing proper research on what I'm buying? If I take that TV back and complain, they aren't legally obliged to take it back. The courts will say that I bought and paid for it, and I can't just take the transaction back.

The salesman didn't manipulate me, nor do any wrong.
It is a matter of degree. If you just dislike the word of "manipulation" How about think a little bit about hard selling versus soft selling? Both legal sales approaches, but hard selling pisses most people off.
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Old 2011-02-13, 00:56   Link #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Confirmed it seems, Walpurgis night is indeed the prolog in episode 1:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brocken_spectre (see pic above)

Walpurgis Night (in German folklore) the night of 30 April (May Day's eve), when witches meet on the Brocken mountain and hold revels with their gods... Brocken is the highest of the Harz Mountains of north central Germany. It is noted for the phenomenon of the Brocken spectre and for witches' revels which reputedly took place there on Walpurgis night.
—Oxford Phrase & Fable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night
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Old 2011-02-13, 01:18   Link #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It does a bit. I believe I see where you are coming from, in that you believe simply using words and stating one's intention, is supposed to be manipulation. It makes me scratch my head, though.

A salesman will be quite honest that he wants to sell you a TV. And he may tell you on several different occasions that he can sell you one cheap. Is he being manipulative? I have a feeling you will say yes, but I'd have to say no. He's being honest about what he wants.

We take it one further, and I finally decide to buy a TV from him, and so take the one he points out. Later on, I discover that the remote control only works from 5 feet away, and I get upset that I wasn't told that. But whose fault is it? The salesman for not telling me? Or me for not doing proper research on what I'm buying? If I take that TV back and complain, they aren't legally obliged to take it back. The courts will say that I bought and paid for it, and I can't just take the transaction back.

The salesman didn't manipulate me, nor do any wrong.
Differences in opinion or definition are rarely ever changed. I'll examine a few situations if you really want to understand my point of view.

My usual use of manipulation is an act where you subtly and actively influence someone to do a particular action, which they wouldn't do under normal circumstances. So in this case a sales pitch can be a form of manipulation but it depends on the situation. (I'll note again. I don't necessarily use the word manipulation in a negative light.)

If you approach him asking for a TV that meets A, B and C specifications and he suggests a few that meet those specs then he is merely giving you information.

If you come in with no expectations but you still want to buy a TV he would merely be advising you on your purchase.

However, say he happens to meet a technologically illiterate couple and he quickly catches on. They tell him they want a TV under <$500 but using technobabble (all true) he eventually convinces them to to buy one for $1000. That is an act of manipulation because he is aggressively influencing their opinion by taking advantage of the lack of technological knowledge. Now, he might be a sweet fellow who is looking to support his siblings because his parents died, and this might be the best purchase the couple has made within the last 5 years. But to me none of that is relevant because he is intentionally manipulating their original desire into his own.

Note that I make clear distinctions between the action, desire and end result. Here his action is talking (all truthful), his desire is to manipulate their opinion into a monetary gain, and the end result is that everyone is happy.
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Old 2011-02-13, 02:10   Link #433
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My usual use of manipulation is an act where you subtly and actively influence someone to do a particular action, which they wouldn't do under normal circumstances.
Except that Kyuube hasn't been subtle in what he wants. He has told Madoka (and Sayaka) repeatedly that he can fulfill whatever wish they want for the price of becoming a magical girl to fight the witches.

Add in a helping of persistence and being able to wait patiently for the right moment to appear makes him a worthy opponent to be wary of.
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Old 2011-02-13, 02:11   Link #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Looks like I didn't make myself clear,you're right,but I never said he created this situation "Sayaka fights Kyoko",the situation he created is madoka being there to see that fight:he's fully responsible for that,if he hadn't gone to see madoka she would have never been there.
Yeah, but that's still strange to me, because it would be something that Madoka would want to know. So he's manipulating her, by telling her exactly what she wants to know? That feels like it's stretching the definition to me.

Quote:
Indeed,that's the only way you're going to get Madoka to be a magical girl because she really doesn't want to unless she has to,that's why making her witness a fight that her friend has no chance to win is a good way to make her have no choice but become a MG :she's a kind girl that will do something that she really doesn't want to so she can save her friend.But Madoka actually tried another way:throw her soul gem away,turns out that wasn't a really good idea.
If we've established that Madoka is doing what she would have done anyway (that is, go to stop Sayaka), then how is it manipulation?

Quote:
edit: I actually don't quite agree with the statement "that the target was almost helpless against it, and had no choice but to go along." but rather that the target is in a state of mind where he/she thinks that they have no choice but to go along but that might or might not be the case.
Again, what happens to personal responsibility? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of this makes it out to be Kyube's fault. But Madoka is as much at fault, if not more so, because it is her own decisions that keep landing her in these situations. Kyube can say he wants her all he wants, but she has to decide on her own. If you take away Madoka's role in this, then you do a disservice to the ideal of personal responsibility. We are all responsible for our own choices.

I live in the US, so perhaps it has shaped my viewpoint to see people suing each other over stupid things, such as someone suing because their coffee was hot. That's why we have stupid disclaimers such as a "Do not eat" label on hammers. Whenever something bad happens, someone will sue. A golfer was on a golfing range and hit his golf ball, which rebounded off a pole and hit him in the head. He is now suing the owners of the golf course. The owners didn't tell him that little detail of how the pole could reflect balls back at him.

If you persist in blaming Kyube and calling Madoka helpless, you're setting up the exact same kind of atmosphere we have in the US: "It is always someone else's fault, no matter how stupid I was."

Quote:
How about both?I blame him and find him manipulative and I slap myself on the head because I should have known better.
The courts would rule that the person selling the apple hasn't done anything wrong. It's called the principle of "Buyer Beware."

Quote:
I can't speak for the others but to me influence alone isn't enough,it's influencing someone using shady methods like withholding information,so no,you can't throw out the withholding information part
I wasn't throwing it out, but setting it aside for the moment. All of us go through life making transactions and conversation without knowing every detail, because no every detail is important enough to change the situation. To go back to my TV example, I would be laughed out of court if I attempted to sue claiming the salesman never told me the range on the remote. I would be very bluntly told it was my fault and perhaps I should be more careful next time, before signing a contract.

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Originally Posted by herbert View Post
It is a matter of degree. If you just dislike the word of "manipulation" How about think a little bit about hard selling versus soft selling? Both legal sales approaches, but hard selling pisses most people off.
I can agree to calling Kyube's tactics soft selling, because he is telling her quite often that he can make her an MG, in situations where it would help. The first time, her life was in danger due to Mami dying, and it was Madoka's choice to go in. Kyube didn't create that situation, but once Mami died, their lives were in danger.

The second when Kyoko showed up. Kyube was pushing it, but he was quite correct that only another MG could get between them. Again, it was Madoka's choice to go along. Most of the rest of the time, he seems more content to wait and have her hold back and think about it. Kyube certainly wasn't complaining that Madoka chose to go along, but he comes across to me more like a salesman, doing the only thing he is capable of doing.

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Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
Differences in opinion or definition are rarely ever changed. I'll examine a few situations if you really want to understand my point of view.
Sometimes, but I personally like debates, because it helps me understand others at the very least. And people reading them become better informed. I can't speak for others, but it does help me address weaknesses in my argument. So even if no minds are changed, there is still benefit to them.

Quote:
My usual use of manipulation is an act where you subtly and actively influence someone to do a particular action, which they wouldn't do under normal circumstances. So in this case a sales pitch can be a form of manipulation but it depends on the situation. (I'll note again. I don't necessarily use the word manipulation in a negative light.)
Except I'm trying to keep analogies closer to what Kyube is doing, and covering other forms of sales pitches would be going off topic (and maybe we are, a bit, but what we're discussing covers the Sayaka/Kyoko fight so technically valid, heh). That's why I phrased my TV example to match what Kyube was doing.

A salesman told me repeatedly that he wants to sell me a TV, but most of the time, told me to think it over carefully. I don't see that as manipulation, because he is telling me straight up what he would like to do: engage in a mutually beneficial transaction. It is up to me. And if I keep putting myself in positions where my current TV could break, that is my fault. And if I buy a TV without making sure all the connectors are good, and it works, and it's in good condition, etc. then it is solely my fault for not doing what I should.

The salesman may be taking advantage of the fact that my TV is broken to remind me that he can sell me a TV, but he isn't manipulating me at all. He's just taking advantage of the situation.

Quote:
However, say he happens to meet a technologically illiterate couple and he quickly catches on. They tell him they want a TV under <$500 but using technobabble (all true) he eventually convinces them to to buy one for $1000. That is an act of manipulation because he is aggressively influencing their opinion by taking advantage of the lack of technological knowledge. Now, he might be a sweet fellow who is looking to support his siblings because his parents died, and this might be the best purchase the couple has made within the last 5 years. But to me none of that is relevant because he is intentionally manipulating their original desire into his own.
It is the couple's fault for buying the TV. You act like they're helpless, but they can research well in advance what they want, and they merely have to hold firm on it. If they walk out with the wrong TV, it is their fault, legally speaking. As I mentioned above, it's called "Buyer Beware." That's how it is in the US, at least.

Quote:
Note that I make clear distinctions between the action, desire and end result. Here his action is talking (all truthful), his desire is to manipulate their opinion into a monetary gain, and the end result is that everyone is happy.
It still comes across as you trying to equate straightforward honesty with manipulation. I'm sorry, but I can't get behind that. If you think someone being honest with you is manipulating you, then you must think I'm manipulating you right now for being honest in how I feel about the situation.

You are being honest with me... are you trying to manipulate me, then?

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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Except that Kyuube hasn't been subtle in what he wants. He has told Madoka (and Sayaka) repeatedly that he can fulfill whatever wish they want for the price of becoming a magical girl to fight the witches.

Add in a helping of persistence and being able to wait patiently for the right moment to appear makes him a worthy opponent to be wary of.
Thank you! I'd agree he can come across as a pushy salesman, but not manipulative.

If I sell anti-bear guns and let you know about it a few times, being quite forward with the fact that I want to make money, and you say no but keep tromping through bear territory and keep getting attacked by bears, and after running away I remind you that I can sell you an anti-bear gun... am I being manipulative? Or just a pushy salesman? I didn't make you tromp through bear territory; you did that on your own.
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Old 2011-02-13, 02:45   Link #435
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idk but the way kyuubey is eating grief seeds and essentially lying about what happens to your soul, makes me believe he has to be a the villain. And then theres that creepy smile he wears all the time.
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Old 2011-02-13, 03:02   Link #436
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i find it strange why some people will vehemently defend the position the QB is not manipulative, because for me he definitely is by his actions.

a couple of points. simplified, let's try not to put in any unneeded baggage like homura as "also" manipulative in this discussion. homura being manipulative or not is separate and irrelevant to the topic of QB being manipulative.

1) manipulative does not equate evil > maybe this is why some people are so against this because QB will feel more " evil " if that's the case. but then again Batman can be manipulative, L from deathnote is a superb manipulator. And QB is too.
from his own mouth no less remember he admitted not saying that piece of information, about being zombified (oops its their such a word ^^) because he knows what effect it will have on their choice.

again from the definitions

> to negotiate, control, or influence (something or someone) cleverly, skilfully, or deviously

2) he may not have CREATED the situations ( in bold because some will say he might have done so, not enough info at the moment) but he definitely made sure the girls are there to witness it so he can do his sales pitch again. And i agree that madoka would already be an MG if homura wasn't there.

3) some say he was always TRUTHFUL, meaning never lied. -
3.1) yes i agree he never said a lie outright. but then he HARDLY SAID ANYTHING at all. you see you can be manipulative without saying any outright lie. in fact the best manipulators are like that. ( also there is such a thing as lying by omission tackled on 3.3)
3.2) you can argue he was "concerned" like telling the girls like "think deeply about you choices" and " make sure of your choices" something to that effect, and yet asks the girls during abnormally stressful times. it's akin to asking your young girlfriend to marry you just when she heard her parents died in an accident. or maybe even just after hearing a
shocking news on TV. you can't expect them to think properly and objectively then.
3.3) I maintain that Mami gave more insights to the MG business than QB ever volunteered. for me even Homura gave more insights than QB. so it goes down to being truthful not just in the basic sense "no outright lies" sense but truthful in spirit. We all know QB withholds information, and these are not any trifling information but life threatening, choice changing, contract breaking ones.

some will argue s/he/it needs to do that to get more MG and it's for the good etc etc, again this is irrelevant to the topic of him being manipulative. see 1) above.
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Old 2011-02-13, 05:42   Link #437
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^ Yep, manipulation is not about lying. It's about showing the half-truth or part-truth. For instance, if mahou shoujo knew what happens to their soul when they make contract (aka turning into the zombie), the amount of recruit will be significantly less.

At first, only thing QB basically said was 'make contract with meh!! you can also have one wish granted as a delicious bonus!!'. If Mami didn't die or Homura wasn't there, Madoka's soul is already solid.

Remember QB's words whenever he was alone with madoka? Remember how he is tricking Madoka into puella magi by keep bringing her into the situation? No word other than manipulative (and desperate) multi-level business salary-man can describe it.
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Old 2011-02-13, 05:51   Link #438
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ehhhh....just throwing in another idea at the discussion pool.

Often in all kinds of story mediums we see the antagonists deliver a mind blow by actually telling them honestly about something, regardless whether the victim actually wanted to know that information or not. I consider this act manipulative.

The all-time classic example:
"I am your father"
"NOOOO~~~~!!!"
In that example, Vader was manipulating Luke's will to succumb to the dark side. Though luckily he didn't fall for it because he knew better.

Imho, manipulation is merely means to an end. It's not good nor evil. There were cases where the main protagonist was deliberately deceived or manipulated by the rest of the cast, usually to protect that protagonist.

As a tool, manipulation comes with disadvantages, such as: a chance to fail or even backfire if the victim was actually mentally or intellectually superior than the perpetrator, or if they were being suspicious of the manipulator. Even if the manipulation failed, the fact remains that the manipulator attempted it.

I also think cleverly taking advantage of a situation to your or someone else liking or to put the victim in a difficult position is a form of manipulation. Even if the victim actually wanted to know that information, the manipulator might actually lure him to a disadvantageous situation

Suppose, QB wasn't manipulative, I doubt he would be able to do his job properly. His job relies heavily on unsuspecting or cornered little girls. Without being manipulative, it is hard to lure them into this line of work. Perhaps QB is more of an opportunist, but QB also often created those opportunities by himself, cleverly manipulating situations to his liking.
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Old 2011-02-13, 05:58   Link #439
FlavorOfLife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
This is why I tend to argue with you. You dismiss someone's argument as opinion, then put forward your own opinions as fact.
And yet another one notices

Would it be lulz worthy if i told you that a *ahem* particular poster actually went around harping on people to state it was their opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystery poster on general discussion View Post
We saw your theory in the speculation thread, which is where it should remain. Please try to refrain from answering questions with theory (or at least state that it is only your opinion and not fact).
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Old 2011-02-13, 06:05   Link #440
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On the if "there were no MS, witches would kill everyone!" lulz worthy logic, here is what has been shown and described

i) Targetted by witches are those weak humans. What does this mean? Witches do not target strong humans.

ii) No normal human has entered the witch dimension other than MS capable girls.

iii) All the normal humans are shown to commit suicide

iv) Normal humans affected move towards the place the witch will be at walking speed

v) Familiars only become witches if they "eat" enough humans

vi) Witch dimensions are preceded by their grief seeds

What do we do if we are targetted by witches without any MS around?
i) Send out the word so everyone knows
ii) Set up neighbourhood watches
iii) Forcibly restraint those who seem to in a trance
iv) Let the witches and familiars starve . What happens when they starve? Maybe we'll find out
v) Hunt grief seeds
vi) Analyze and find a way to destroy grief seeds
vii) As the grief seed is not used by any MS (since they are not around), they will not be able to return to witch state if destruction of the witch but not grief seed is possible
viii) On chance destruction is not possible, gather each and bury them in the moon/mars/etc or send on a course outside the solar system.

Last edited by FlavorOfLife; 2011-02-13 at 06:19.
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