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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Rating
Perfect 10 96 56.80%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 33.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 5.92%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 3.55%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 169. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-15, 15:24   Link #561
Seihai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Though by saying that girls like Kyoko are more fit to be magical girls it seems she's given up on trying to save every human possible,considering Kyoko doesn't mind human death at all.
I agree for the most part but regarding Kyouko, I think it also depends on 'who' and 'how' for her. She is primarily shocked about the info that Kyubei told that no one except Homura knew yet, but otherwise Sayaka's death got to her, too. If just slightly. I just think Kyouko's over-the-top and not too reasonable violence is simply part of her general carefreeness. I'm not trying to justify her actions though. Just that... she is not as bad as some might make her out to be. You know, I still have that Revy image in my mind. A totally different person and another universe but she can still differentiate good from bad. That's all there is to it though.

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She knows but if she's following the logic of Madoka's mom then I don't think her goal is to have Madoka be enthused about her.She wouldn't try to kill Sayaka and Madoka seems to only be willing to make a wish if Sayaka's life is threatened so she's probably confident about Madoka not making a wish.
Well, to be fair Kaijo didn't say "kill" but "beating down". Again I generally agree however.

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So he knows odds are the girls aren't going to like that detail when they hear it,that alone should be enough for him to know that it'd be a good idea to tell them,even if he doesn't consider it important.
If you consider the open-to-everything principle, then it might just as well be a fact you purposely not tell them or they might not want to turn into MGs anymore. That said, Sayaka is already one, but... alas, Kyubei himself said it's very rare for such a thing to happen. Normally you have the soul gem with you. You aren't going to leave it home because as Mami stated before, you won't have space for boyfriends, freetime and all that. Which makes me think that they naturally carry it at all times since MG is serious business. So... since you carry it with you all the time, why would you ask such a thing as "what happens if I do not carry it around with me?" or something like that. I'd say asking that is both stupid and smart. And we all know Kyubei doesn't answer unless asked, and chances are he will dodge it in a way, heh.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:28   Link #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
While I can't deny that it'd be a very standard good vs evil fight,I don't see it as a typical magical girl anime kind of ending because I don't think many MG animes have the cute mascot character be "the Masterfully Malevolent Monster".
Oh, there would be a big twist to Kyubey being the big bad at the end, I'm not denying that. But it would still make Madoka herself the classic magical girl, and the climax one that's typical magical girl anime, just with a plot twist. At most, it would be comparable to Magic Knight Rayearth.

If you want a truly dark deconstruction of magical girl anime then make Kyubey a morally ambiguous character (and not outright evil), and have it so that the final threat is defeated at a great cost, and by questionable means.


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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Oh please, don't insult us with that kind of image.
Hey, it's not just my idea. I've read some of Mentar's speculations, and IIRC, he expects Madoka to turn out to be a very pure magical girl with pure motives who wins the day by becoming a "true" magical girl, and for Kyubey to be an evil guy playing both sides.

It's patently obvious where that leads to.

And Mentar clearly knows a lot about Urobushi, and he doesn't seem to think that this would be out-of-line for Urobushi's writing style.



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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
How so? How would QB being evil make this show less dark? Since your using Nanoha as an example I'd like you to name me a ''evil'' character there?
Precia Testarossa, Jail Scaglietti, and Quattro.

Plenty of evil with those three.

A's is the only one of the three Nanoha animes that lacks a genuinely evil character, and interestingly enough, it's also widely regarded as the darkest of the three Nanoha animes...
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:33   Link #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I agree with that. In most magical girl shows the antagonist is not really evil. The actually evil antagonist is more the exception than the rule.
Queen Beryl of Sailor Moon anime, and Precia Testarossa and Jail Scaglietti of Nanoha. More come to mind, people doing evil acts, but end up befriended in the end. But quite a few were eliminated entirely.

Anyway, what Triple R is saying, is that making Kyube an evil antagonist, would shape this anime up to be a clear good vs. evil fight at the end.... just like most other anime out there (and do you really expect Gen to make a typical good vs. evil final fight ending if he's been subverting things so far?)

So, if we really want Kyube to be evil, then we have to expect a typical end. If, however, Kyube is morally grey, then Madoka has potential for a much different ending.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:35   Link #564
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If you want a truly dark deconstruction of magical girl anime then make Kyubey a morally ambiguous character (and not outright evil), and have it so that the final threat is defeated at a cost, and by questionable means.
Problem is, Homura and Kyubey are already doing things by questionable means. Madoka fills a different role (probably ).

And about the cost, I'm expecting Mami to remain dead, and Homura sacrificing herself too. Sayaka is probably going to survive ("there's still light at the end of her path" said her VA), but Kamijo is going to kick the bucket. So yeah, plenty of cost, even after Madoka saves the day by being the pure and authentic magical girl.

Just a theory, but I'm getting more and more confident about it with every episode and new piece of info.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:47   Link #565
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Precia Testarossa, Jail Scaglietti, and Quattro.

Plenty of evil with those three.

A's is the only one of the three Nanoha animes that lacks a genuinely evil character, and interestingly enough, it's also widely regarded as the darkest of the three Nanoha animes...
Precia can't really be called completely evil knowing her past and why she's collecting the jewel seeds. The other two I might give you but even then they are not the main focus of the show and its mainly filled with gray characters which is a staple of it.

None of this really answers the question though of how having QB be evil will make the show less dark. Many factors going into making a show dark and I've seen dark shows done many different ways. I agree with Kazu-kun and the true crux of this show relies on the subversion of the QB being possibly evil instead of your normal helper friend in a MG show. He certainly so far isn't a Yuuno or other similar character who are almost universally portrayed as good.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:49   Link #566
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Problem is, Homura and Kyubey are already doing things by questionable means. Madoka fills a different role (probably ).

And about the cost, I'm expecting Mami to remain dead, and Homura sacrificing herself too. Sayaka is probably going to survive ("there's still light at the end of her path" said her VA), but Kamijo is going to kick the bucket. So yeah, plenty of cost, even after Madoka saves the day by being the pure and authentic magical girl.

Just a theory, but I'm getting more and more confident about it with every episode and new piece of info.
Perhaps my view here isn't common, but I don't view character death as dark in and of itself. It depends on how a character dies, imo.

If a character goes out in a blaze of glory, while in a major fight against a bunch of clear-cut villains, that's not dark. Quite the contrary, it's an inspirational legend!

But if a character goes out in a morally ambiguous fight, and goes out in a grizzly fashion, and if questions like "Is what we're fighting for really worth it?" comes up, then we have dark, imo. And those questions only exist as long as the fight being entered into is truly morally ambiguous.


If Kyubey ends up being evil, and hence Madoka and Homura have to stop him, that wouldn't be a morally ambiguous fight. If Homura sacrifices her life in such a struggle, then she's a glorious hero who gave her life for a greater cause. Not someone who may have died in vain.


And if this is what you want, Kazu-kun, then that's perfectly fine. I like Superman vs. Lex Luthor myself. But I don't think that's what Sheba and those like him are hoping for.


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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Precia can't really be called completely evil
I totally disagree with you. Precia's treatment of Fate is, in and of itself, enough to call Precia evil.

Honestly, Slick_rick, after all your moralizing against Kyubey, you're going to defend Precia freakin' Testarossa?!

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The other two I might give you but even then they are not the main focus of the show...
Balderdash. Jail Scaglietti is a major focal character in StrikerS. He's the main antagonist for crying out loud.


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None of this really answers the question though of how having QB be evil will make the show less dark.
Well, read what I wrote to Kazu-kun above.
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Old 2011-02-15, 15:57   Link #567
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I have to agree... Precia whipping and abusing Fate is not evil, but Kyube contracting girls to save humanity against witches, is?

If anyone ever wonders why I keep making the point about double standards, this should be clear enough.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:00   Link #568
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And if this is what you want, Kazu-kun, then that's perfectly fine. I like Superman vs. Lex Luthor myself. But I don't think that's what Sheba and those like him are hoping for.
You're misunderstanding. I don't want anything. This is just my theory based on the clues and hints I see.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Queen Beryl of Sailor Moon anime, and Precia Testarossa and Jail Scaglietti of Nanoha. More come to mind, people doing evil acts, but end up befriended in the end. But quite a few were eliminated entirely.
Queen Beryl was just jealous and got contaminated by Queen Metalia, which wasn't exactly evil either as it was part of the natural darkness of the universe (chaos), which was the darkness to Usagi's light in a yin-yang-sque relationship instead of an evil-good one (read last chapter of the manga).

Precia Testarossa wanted to revive her deceased daughter. Probably the only truly evil (by nature, as I suspect Kyubey is) character I know in magical girl shows is Scaglietti.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:07   Link #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Queen Beryl was just jealous and got contaminated by Queen Metalia, which wasn't exactly evil either as it was part of the natural darkness of the universe (chaos), which was the darkness to Usagi's light in a yin-yang-sque relationship instead of an evil-good one (read last chapter of the manga).

Precia Testarossa wanted to revive her deceased daughter. Probably the only truly evil (by nature, as I suspect Kyubey is) character I know in magical girl shows is Scaglietti.
Ah, but the argument for Kyube being evil, is that he is doing evil acts, regardless of intention. Precia, Beryl, Metallia... can you agree they all did evil acts?

And hell, I can make a case for Jail not being evil. After all, he was created by the council to research Al-hazard technologies, and he worked to limit loss of human life. But this isn't the thread for that. ;p
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:10   Link #570
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I totally disagree with you. Precia's treatment of Fate is, in and of itself, enough to call Precia evil.
She hit her, yes. In my book abuse while a very bad thing doesn't equate to evil also Precia was a very troubled lady who wasn't in her right mind, especially considering how she died, so I'm while not excusing her actions I think she has as much ambiguity as the many of the character who beat the shit of each other for their own goals.

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Honestly, Slick_rick, after all your moralizing against Kyubey, you're going to defend Precia freakin' Testarossa?!
One's practically insane while the other is a conniver and leach. I feel a little pity for one but certainly none for the other.



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Balderdash. Jail Scaglietti is a major focal character in StrikerS. He's the main antagonist for crying out loud.
He showed up ever now and again and said a few things but he certainly wasn't a character who did much on screen. Either way not really the issue.


Quote:
Well, read what I wrote to Kazu-kun above.
I did. You basically arguing your preference for a certain dark element in a show. I can understand that but like I said darkness is done in many different ways and while I understand what your saying I don't think "to be dark'' the show has to follow your specific example. Mami death I felt was dark and apparently a lot of other people would agree looking back at the thread. You might not consider it dark enough for your taste but I don't really see how that makes much of a difference.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:16   Link #571
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
but Kyube contracting girls to save humanity against witches, is?
I don't remember seeing many people going around and saying that.The whole basis of the QB is evil theory is that him saying he's doing it to fight witches is a lie,do they have solid concrete undeniable proof,of course not,but that's another story.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:20   Link #572
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Ah, but the argument for Kyube being evil, is that he is doing evil acts, regardless of intention.
That's the argument? Sorry then, I got ahead of that already; I'm more concerned about his motivations. Really I couldn't care less is his actions are deemed evil or not. For me, they're just clues hinting other things...

At this point, there's only one question regarding Kyubey that's actually relevant to the show. Why does he want Madoka to make a contract so badly? That's all I care at this point really.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:21   Link #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I don't remember seeing many people going around and saying that.The whole basis of the QB is evil theory is that him saying he's doing it to fight witches is a lie,do they have solid concrete undeniable proof,of course not,but that's another story.
So, we're allowed to think of someone as evil without proof, just as long as we simply decide to?

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
At this point, there's only one question regarding Kyubey that's actually relevant to the show. Why does he want Madoka to make a contract so badly? That's all I care at this point really.
The show already answered this: he senses that she has a LOT of magical power, which would mean she can more easily and quickly dispose of witches.

The questions you're asking, hint at what I just said to totoum. You've made the decision that he's evil, and the basis for that decision is based on what you assume.

It would be me saying, "I believe that Kazu-kun is evil. I don't have any proof, but I just feel that he is. I'm also making assumptions about his motivations."

What IS a legitmate question to ask is this: "If he has some sense of selfishness, then what does he get out of making magical girls to fight witches?" That's fertile ground for speculation. Maybe it's something devious, and maybe he just gets orgasms everytime a witch or familiar is killed.

I myself have speculated that it has something to do with his tails. His name sounds a lot like 9-tails, but his shadow only showed 6, or maybe 7.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:37   Link #574
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The show already answered this: he senses that she has a LOT of magical power, which would mean she can more easily and quickly dispose of witches.
Not exactly. He never said anything about disposing witches, and more importantly, we don't really know what "lot of magical power" really means. Remember than in the dream she said she has the power to change fate. That's pretty exotic, it's not just "lots of fire power"...

So no, we still don't know why he's so gung ho about her.

On the other hand, the argument about his selfishness and such seems pretty irrelevant to me.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:44   Link #575
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Not exactly. He never said anything about disposing witches, and more importantly, we don't really know what "lot of magical power" really means.

So no, we still don't know why he's so gung ho about her.
Yes yes, we're still playing the "He must be hiding something!" game. But all we know so far is that Kyube contracts girls to fight witches; a single wish that can be anything you want in exchange for magical powers to fight against witches until you die. Given Kyube's Spock-like nature, girls with more magical power would be more valuable.

Yes, you can say, "But what is his REAL motivation?" all you like. But the show HAS given us an answer. It may not be the only one(or the ultimate one in the long run), but we still have one. It's an answer. You are probably rejecting that, and hoping for proof of another reason, but that's your call. I go with what has been said and shown so far, until new evidence shows me otherwise.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:48   Link #576
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I have to agree... Precia whipping and abusing Fate is not evil, but Kyube contracting girls to save humanity against witches, is?

If anyone ever wonders why I keep making the point about double standards, this should be clear enough.
Well some people like Mentar are convinced beyond doubt that Kyube is evil, which is pretty much a "guilty until proven innocent" approach... Which I am not fond of myself.

However, I think we can agree that many of the actions of Kyube makes him a cold hearted bastard at the very least .

Whether he is evil or not depends on many of the details we have yet to learn.

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If you want a truly dark deconstruction of magical girl anime then make Kyubey a morally ambiguous character (and not outright evil), and have it so that the final threat is defeated at a great cost, and by questionable means.
Dark shows don't necessarily need to have villains that are morally gray though. There are plenty of anime/shows/movies out there that are extremely dark with characters that are simply just evil...

Wasn't the recent movie the Dark Knight representative of this? The Joker is beyond all doubt an evil character, and it was that evilness that served to make the movie dark.
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Old 2011-02-15, 16:53   Link #577
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Yes, you can say, "But what is his REAL motivation?" all you like. But the show HAS given us an answer. It may not be the only one(or the ultimate one in the long run), but we still have one. It's an answer. You are probably rejecting that, and hoping for proof of another reason, but that's your call. I go with what has been said and shown so far, until new evidence shows me otherwise.
I'm not rejecting anything. I'm just taking everything into consideration here. The fact that Homura is so adamant in preventing the contract, the fact that QB is prompt to withhold information, the fact that he did say Madoka has the capacity to change fate, which is something pretty cryptic in itself...

All this leads to the conclusion that we can't take QB's word about Madoka as face value IMO.
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:10   Link #578
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So, we're allowed to think of someone as evil without proof, just as long as we simply decide to?
Well I said with no undeniable proof,but they're not going on absolutly nothing,you yourself listed some of the things that made people think he was evil in one post.

But like I said "that's another story" and wasn't really the point of my post,my main point is that your statement of people finding QB because he wants to save people from witches just doesn't seem correct to me.

I personaly do like the "robot" and "grey army recruiter" theory,I don't aprove of him withholding information like he did but it's not like he completely mislead the girls either.
For exemple it's not like he said "Don't worry,I'll make you nearly immortal" to make the deal look better only to reveal later that inconvenience that comes with what he did.That would have been a lot worse to me.
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:12   Link #579
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Well some people like Mentar are convinced beyond doubt that Kyube is evil, which is pretty much a "guilty until proven innocent" approach... Which I am not fond of myself.
Hello? We have SEEN already that he's luring little unsuspecting girls into a deadly meatgrinder while consciously withholding important information from them. This is a plain FACT we know for sure. Maybe in your world this is okay, in mine it's not.

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However, I think we can agree that many of the actions of Kyube makes him a cold hearted bastard at the very least .
That, too. Still, it's his _actions_ which I consider evil. That he's amoral and devoid of any shame or feeling of guilt is just the icing on the cake.

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Whether he is evil or not depends on many of the details we have yet to learn.
Not for me, no. The idea of having him as a recruiter for the sake of humankind (which some people are peddling) is hair-raisingly absurd for my taste - since he doesn't care crap what happens to MGs after they contract. As long as they collect and pollute Grief Seeds for him to devour, that is.

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Hey, it's not just my idea. I've read some of Mentar's speculations, and IIRC, he expects Madoka to turn out to be a very pure magical girl with pure motives who wins the day by becoming a "true" magical girl, and for Kyubey to be an evil guy playing both sides.
QB has already been unmasked for my taste. But I expect more skeletons to pop up in his locker (the main link being that MGs can turn into witches).

If Madoka does become a MG - and to be honest, I consider this 99% likely - she will be very different to the likes of Kyoko, Homura, and even Sayaka. I would also assume that her wish is going to be a critical part of the "resolution" of the show, but I'm not sure if it's going to be in a direct way (a'la "save Homura from that"), but rather indirect (e.g. "I want the power to help people").

Sheba: Could you please elaborate what of this expectation you consider "insulting"? I'm not sure if I understand you.

Quote:
And Mentar clearly knows a lot about Urobushi, and he doesn't seem to think that this would be out-of-line for Urobushi's writing style.
Urobuchi tends to go for bittersweet endings. Those which are essentially hopeful-positive with a feeling of achievement, but coming at a price. I do expect the show to continue to become darker and more and more bitter, but at the end of the ordeal, there will be a light. At the moment I'm not quite sure what Madoka/Homura are going to be fighting against, but I'm certain that when the dust settles, Madoka will be a MG. She'll also have saved the world, but it will be a painful victory. At least separation from Homura again (who I expect to become very close to Madoka over the coming eps). We'll see.

I do NOT think that he'll end the show in catastrophe. That would also be a very unwise commercial decision, btw ...
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:19   Link #580
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However, I think we can agree that many of the actions of Kyube makes him a cold hearted bastard at the very least .
Oh yes, Bones often called Spock a cold-hearted bastard, too. I remember in Wrath of Khan, where they learned about the genesis device:

McCoy: Dear Lord. You think we're intelligent enough to... suppose... what if this thing were used where life already exists?
Spock: It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix.
McCoy: Its "new matrix"? Do you have any idea what you're saying?
Spock: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create.
McCoy: Not anymore; now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now, watch out! Here comes Genesis! We'll do it for you in six minutes!
Spock: Really, Dr. McCoy. You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing. Logic suggests...
McCoy: Logic? My God, the man's talking about logic; we're talking about universal Armageddon! You green-blooded, inhuman...

So yes, I can agree he comes across as cold. But Spock wasn't evil, either. however, my real point was for people to apply their own standards evenly; that if they are going to call Kyube evil, then extend the same standard to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I'm not rejecting anything. I'm just taking everything into consideration here. The fact that Homura is so adamant in preventing the contract,
Quite a few people believe it is because Homura knew Madoka before, and wanted to simply spare her the life of a magical girl. She shows some of the same consideration towards Sayaka, but not as much; her main focus is Madoka. There are some hints in the manga as to the relationship between Homura and Madoka, but it is completely believable that Homura holds that, "I don't want to send my child to war!" attitude.

Quote:
the fact that QB is prompt to withhold information,
As he said, he notices girls tend to freak out over some details. One can imagine that hurts the recruitment process, and apparently very few girls find out about it anyway.

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the fact that he did say Madoka has the capacity to change fate, which is something pretty cryptic in itself...
Curious, where was this said? Now this would be interesting of itself. Kyube might want Madoka because she might have enough power to change the sad cycle. In which case, his recruitment of her is justified because that would save lives. Kyube wouldn't be evil at all, then;

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All this leads to the conclusion that we can't take QB's word about Madoka as face value IMO.
Heh, interesting that you use Kyube's statement as fact that she has the power to change fate as proof, but then jump to the conclusion we can't trust him. So we can't trust his supposed statement that she can change fate?

A more honest question, but why the heavy distrust for him? I can understand him coming across as a bit creepy, but history is full of that fallacy. White people often found black people creepy, for instance. So I'm pretty worried about instantly distrusting someone without proof.

And note that I believe he is probably withholding more information, but since he has answered every question asked of him so far, it stands to reason he would explain more if asked... but the girls never do. To him, it just simply doesn't seem important.

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Well I said with no undeniable proof,but they're not going on absolutly nothing,you yourself listed some of the things that made people think he was evil in one post.
I did, but that was more of the things that people could interpret in an evil way. It's like going into a courtroom as a jury member and seeing the defendant, and having the prosecutor and defense present opening statements consisting of equally valid explanations for actions, one of which leaves him guilty and one of which leaves him innocent. I won't know which is more accurate until the trial is over and all the evidence is presented.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
since he doesn't care crap what happens to MGs after they contract. As long as they collect and pollute Grief Seeds for him to devour, that is.
Blatantly contradicted, since he was hanging out with Sayaka afterward, explaining things to her, teaching her things. He even went and got Madoka to help her, knowing Sayaka was being reckless and wouldn't listen, but might listen to her friend.
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