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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-18, 16:52   Link #241
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by ars89 View Post
Didn't expect Kyubey to hurt Sayaka, at least we finally get to see his dark side.
I don't see it as Kyuubey just hurting Sayaka, as Homura said Kyuubey has no sense of Human morality. From his point of view he is showing the advantage of being undead. The concept of Good and Evil just doesn't apply to him. Which brings up the question what exactly does Kyuubey gain form all this? He has access to unlimited wishes and considering his lack of concept of being human, why is does he go about making Magical girls to fight witches. What does he really want?
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Old 2011-02-18, 16:55   Link #242
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Let's summarize the fact about Sayaka's psychotic breakdown.

1. She learns her soul is outside her body,
2. She learns that Hitomi is confessing to Kamijo.

Is it "realistic" for Sayaka to go psychotic? Sure, people in real life go psychotic all the time for petty stuff.

Do I sympathize with Sayaka? Absolutely not. As I keep saying I don't understand what is so bad about the soul being outside of one's body and I certainly don't understand why Sayaka cannot develop a relationship with Kamijo.

Using Kaijo's income example: You know there are people who complain they make $500,000 a year, because they used to make $1,000,000 a year. Instead of riding a BMW, they used to ride a Bentley....etc. Am I sympathize with them? Absolutely not.

The bottom line, is that for a fiction to be good, being realistic is only the bare minimum. It needs to be convincing to be good. They fail to convince me here. And it seems they fail to convince not only be, but quite a number of people in this forum.

Sidenote: if you want to watch some real good drama/ emotion conflict, go watch Mugen no Ryvius. You probably won't like any of the characters there, yet you sympathize with all of them and convince about their personal challenge and angst. That is what dark drama done right.
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Old 2011-02-18, 16:57   Link #243
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
I would like to ask where you get your views from, since one dramatic death is one more than most mahou shoujo shows where there is no death on the protagonist side at all.
My point (that you were responding to there) is a general one.

It's a general one that I'd apply to any anime show, regardless of genre.


Quote:
People disagree on whether he is evil or not, and what his motives are. Nobody disagrees that he is deceptive and not very trustworthy, unless they are naive. This if very different from other mahou shoujo shows where the fairies/familiars are clearly allies.
How is Kyubey not even an ally? He's given advice and instruction to Sayaka since she contracted with him, just like all fairies/familiars do in magical girl anime.

I mean, he might be revealed to be the nefarious big bad of this anime, but until we know that, he's acting like an ally to Sayaka, albeit a very harsh one.


Quote:

In the real world, it is a doctor/surgeon's...
The doctor/surgeon analogy is a bit of a stretch here.

Doctors and surgeons are paid to provide medical service.

Kyubey is paying Sayaka (with a wish) to provide him with magical girl service.


Quote:
Sayaka expected to gain powers. She did not expect to lose anything, even if it is still close to her in trinket form.
If it is still close to her, she hasn't lost it.


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For you it does. How much more "effect" do you want beyond the brutal death of a major character?
Even just one more death would be a good way to maintain the tension and the grimdark mood.

Or, for that matter, even someone just losing a limb or being put in a coma.


Quote:
Sakura had Tomoyo and Kero to support her right from the beginning, even if they did not actually fight alongside her. Sayaka has Madoka, who is apparently useless right now, a non-human creature who lacks sympathy, and two other magical girls she views as enemies. They are in very different positions.
No, they're not.

Tomoyo was simply taking pictures, and making costumes for Sakura, most of the time. How is that way more useful than what Madoka's been to Sayaka?

And Kero simply gave Sakura instruction, just like what Kyubey did in this episode towards Sayaka.

You're dramatically overstating the difference here.
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Old 2011-02-18, 16:57   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Not completely similar, but Nanoha spent several years in rehab due to almost dying, and learning that she possibly might not ever fly or use magic again. She also had her adoptive daughter kidnapped, and then watched helpless as she was tortured on broadcast TV.
Nanoha was not betrayed by Yuno or any of her friends, her body was not changed without her permission, and no "friend" ever stole the person she has a crush on. Not similar at all. The presence of trustworthy allies and lack of betrayal means that Nanoha has a very idealistic life despite enemies constantly showing up.
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Old 2011-02-18, 16:59   Link #245
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Was I the only person who watched this and felt that Sayaka's crazy laughter was kind of... out of place?

It just seemed to me like a rather heavy-handed way of showing that she'd snapped.
If you listen carefully about what Sayaka said before the fighting and after, you will find that was exactly right timing to show Sayaka's madness.

Fighting that way, Sayaka doesn't hurt any-more.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:00   Link #246
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Nanoha was not betrayed by Yuno or any of her friends,
Balderdash. Do you not remember one of the major plot points of Nanoha A's?


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and no "friend" ever stole the person she has a crush on.
Moot point given the shipteasing of Nanoha.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:03   Link #247
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
If you listen carefully about what Sayaka said before the fighting and after, you will find that was exactly right timing to show Sayaka's madness.

Fighting that way, Sayaka doesn't hurt any-more.
I understand that, but why does that mean that she needs to laugh like an evil lunatic? Incoherent screaming would have been much more effective in my book.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:05   Link #248
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post

Hello? After watching Sayaka in the last scene in ep7, you're talking about "through a mirror darkly"?
My take on this is very similar to Kaisos'.

Suffice it to say that I found it very hard to take seriously. It honestly felt like Sayaka was trying to do a great Professor Tomoe impression.

Incoherent screaming would have been much more effective in my books too.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:06   Link #249
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I don't see it as Kyuubey just hurting Sayaka, as Homura said Kyuubey has no sense of Human morality. From his point of view he is showing the advantage of being undead. The concept of Good and Evil just doesn't apply to him. Which brings up the question what exactly does Kyuubey gain form all this? He has access to unlimited wishes and considering his lack of concept of being human, why is does he go about making Magical girls to fight witches. What does he really want?
At least Homura does not think Kyube as evil.. If she does, she just tell Madoka "yeah that Kyube is just an evil bustad. Don't have any connection with him. See what he has done to your best friend?"

So that again beings up the question of what exactly Kyube is.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:08   Link #250
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I understand that, but why does that mean that she need to laugh like an evil lunatic? Incoherent screaming would have been much more effective in my book.
I think it is just Shaft being Shaft, or more of BGM mistake that made this slightly incoherent flow. Nothing wrong with the script and laugh itself.

Because at the first sequence of fighting, Sayaka was totally fine. After being wounded everywhere and saved by Kyoko, it's like she suddenly realises that fighting like crazy is only way to escape from the reality she suffers and also from distorted herself how was thinking of letting Hitomi die. I think that's what that madness laugh represents.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:11   Link #251
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I understand that, but why does that mean that she needs to laugh like an evil lunatic? Incoherent screaming would have been much more effective in my book.
I took it as "lol,I was a fool to get mad at QB for doing this to me,this is great,he did me a really nice favor,there will be no stopping me in my crusade against witches"

Of course we'll have to see next episode to confirm that
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:14   Link #252
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
So, you'd have sympathy for the poor person crying that they only make $500,000 a year? Because the taxes on that kind of money is a real pain to handle. Where is the empathy there?
I guess I failed to convey the proper analogy.
To put it in a bullet point: let's assume, A and B. A earns 5000, B earns 8000. B isn't really satisfied, but A believe it is B's situation is "nice". Does this mean that B has to follow the same conclusion?
Of course, the analogy is faulty because of the lack of circumstances. What I was trying to point is that you simply cannot conclude "someone shouldn't complain if someone else is fine with the same situation, or something worse".

A given situation can only be gauged by that person alone, when it is about emotional response.
Quote:
It shows that it is possible to live with, and live quite well at that. If Kyoko was having a hard time accepting it, too, then I might start to see it. To keep using your money example.... How much sympathy do you have for someone who whines about paying taxes on their $100,000 a year salary? If it's shown that there are other people making that kind of money and living a nice life, then it kinda puts to lie to the idea that making $100,000 a year is somehow bad. Yeah, sure, Sayaka could honestly be broken up about only making $100,000 a year. But I wouldn't have much sympathy for that. Would you?
Again, I have hard time to actually consider that train of thought, because you involve yourself or another character, and put people on balance for the same problem, whereas it is something you cannot quantify in term of psychological impact.
Kyoko can live with that, but is it really something she would have accepted readily if Kyuubey was honest from the get go? As far it is shown in Episode 6, she wasn't pleased by this prospect a single bit.

So I will use the very same point you are always claiming: do you have proof that Kyoko is "fine living like that"? Can you attest that she isn't convincing herself that it is "fine"? Can you really prove that she wasn't pulling a facade?

Jab aside, I personally don't think the answer of that is important. The main point is that I just can't see an actual objective and practical way to -compare- very personal situations between different individuals, even if the said situations are exactly the same.

Quote:
One example: Sayaka. Kyoko and Homura have both accepted it, in albeit different fashions(And it didn't take Kyoko long). That's 2 out of 3 MG's.
Then let's take another "subtle" example: Homura explained that no one (as, other MG) would believe her. I personally see it as a denial, which means that should reality strike them hard, they will have as much difficulty as Sayaka to accept that.

Also, considering how Homura was behaving with Madoka, I don't think you can call that "accepted it". Feel free to disagree, but to me, Homura basically forsake herself and just proceed to her objective, it doesn't mean she can live with it.
In fact, despite being the most cynical, she herself contemplates the statement that she isn't human... and that's from your level headed character.
Quote:
And again, that is in their mind, and for them to overcome. We ALL have things about ourselves we don't like. Does everyone break down into whiny angst over it? Being able to accept things about you, is also human. So in a way, Sayaka even asking herself these questions is proof that she's still human. If she throws that away as the ending psycho sequence demonstrates, then she'll have lost her humanity.
Except there is a vast difference: Sayaka's status is impossible to reverse and was inflicted to her while she didn't ask for it. Of course, you probably gonna use example such like a handicapped person born as they are, but they -lived- like that from the start. Whereas Sayaka was perfectly normal and got the short end of a stick which wasn't what she was asking for.

In the end, she is torn by the conflict generated that her goal and means were upside down. She didn't save Kyousuke in order to be a MG, she turned into a MG to save Kyousuke for her own sake. She thought she was doing the former, but she is actually doing the latter, and it is striking her badly as she realize she isn't righteous as she thought to act.
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There is nothing good or bad about a trope. It's just a tool, and every show has them. I merely brought it up to illustrate my issue with the show. Hey, I can understand it would be upsetting to learn, but then you are left with two choices: accept it, or angst about it. Which option is the smarter one, I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.
The trope itself isn't the issue, it is how it is used that can become a liability. Expecting everything to turn exactly like a trope is foolish to be frank, and likewise, expecting a trope not working because all conditions aren't filled isn't any good either. In the end, I would rather gauge by the situation itself, than just comparing with a stoic example and deliberately saying "not the same / same" just because of arbitrarely criteria made by whoever created the trope.

And I don't think "accept it" is always the smarter choice, because it would mean that you would be "okay" that the said source of the issue was fine. Accepting the situation may be synonym of "moving on" at times, but it is also synonym of "turning a blind eye to it".
To each of its own, it is rather case by case basis, instead of expecting such situation to be clear cut.
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To a degree, I agree. She did seem to accept it and come out firm after a couple of days. Part of my issue is in the convenient timing of Hitomi's chat, Sayaka healthily dealing with it by recognizing her issues and having a good cry on a friend's shoulder... and then watching her instantly regress to psycho at the end. Kamijou got over his outburst, so I'll forgive her if she gets over it next episode (although at this point, I'm expecting more convenient outcomes designed to push Sayaka into full nutball territory).
I think there are enough details already explained before: that Hitomi was shown interested in Episode 2, that Sayaka wasn't anything subtle when Kyousuke showed up. In fact, she was definitely acting weird, and who knows for how long Hitomi knows Sayaka (fairly long time if we consider that she calls Sayaka her precious friend).
And if Hitomi knows how many times Sayaka was visiting Kyousuke at the hospital, it doesn't require rocket science that Sayaka is in love with him, but the time elapsed for this "non confession" period and the recent awkward behaviour she had probably spelled some action required for Hitomi.

And the good cry of Sayaka doesn't mean she deep down accepted it and acknowlodged what she said to Madoka. Even if she realize the issue, her conflict definitely didn't get any answer at all, leading her to snap.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:15   Link #253
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My take on this is very similar to Kaisos'.
Let's just say I'm completely flabbergasted how you can compare what happened to Sayaka to ANYTHING happening to Nanoha. We're talking a completely different league of tragedy here. Unless of course you insist on the "I ignore all signs of foreboding and pretend that all is fine" position. Like, that Sayaka will be alright next ep.

Quote:
Suffice it to say that I found it very hard to take seriously. It honestly felt like Sayaka was trying to do a great Professor Tomoe impression.

Incoherent screaming would have been much more effective in my books too.
I guess we have different tastes then. Well-constructed drama doesn't rely on blatant nonsense like incoherent screaming in my book. Her nervous breakdown in the end made perfect sense and underlined her detereorating condition much better. Just like blatant violence is much cruder than true horror which relies on the imagination of the viewer rather than gore.

So I guess the show will have to continue to "surprise" you with more explicit QB ugliness and disfigured corpses before you're satisfied? ^_^;
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:16   Link #254
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My point (that you were responding to there) is a general one, justsomeguy.

It's a general one that I'd apply to any anime show, regardless of genre.
Then the problem is you, because you're not accepting that having a life full of unavoidable battles and being doomed to a lonely existence and brutal death is bleak.
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How is Kyubey not even an ally? He's given advice and instruction to Sayaka since she contracted with him, just like all fairies/familiars do in magical girl anime.

I mean, he might be revealed to be the nefarious big bad of this anime, but until he know that, he's acting like an ally to Sayaka, albeit a very harsh one.
Sayaka's conversation with QB at the beginning of this episode makes it clear that she no longer trusts him as much as she did before, and that she's only going along because it's too late to do anything about it.
Quote:
The doctor/surgeon analogy is a bit of a stretch here.

Doctors and surgeons are paid to provide medical service.

Kyubey is paying Sayaka (with a wish) to provide him with magical girl service.
No, not a stretch at all. Surgeons operate on patients, and QB extracts souls into gems. Ethics dictates that the patient should be told what would happen, and given a choice to back out once they are informed. QB violated Sayaka's mind and body by doing it without telling her. You expect her not to "overreact" when she found out that she was no longer even human?
Quote:
If it is still close to her, she hasn't lost it.
Now you're thinking like QB. Sayaka lost her physical humanity, not just her body/soul.



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Even just one more death would be a good way to maintain the tension and the grimdark mood.

Or, for that matter, even someone just losing a limb or being put in a coma.
Last episode, Sayaka fought another mahou shoujo who intended to kill her, and was temporarily killed when Madoka tossed her soul gem away.
Sayak finds out this episode that a so-called "friend" of hers is planning to steal the boy she had spent her single wish on and sacrificed her humanity for.
How is this not tension?
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No, they're not.

Tomoyo was simply taking pictures, and making costumes for Sakura, most of the time. How is that way more useful than what Madoka's been to Sayaka?

And Kero simply gave Sakura instruction, just like what Kyubey did in this episode towards Sayaka.

You're dramatically overstating the difference here, justsomeguy.
You're dramatically underestimating the difference here. Tomoyo provided moral support, while Madoka impotently begs Sayaka not to fight and is a liability in battle. Kero at no point demonstrates any hostility toward Sakura, while QB actually hurts Sayaka through her soul gem. Sakura had true allies. Sayaka has one useless friend, enemies, and traitors around her.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:16   Link #255
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I understand that, but why does that mean that she needs to laugh like an evil lunatic? Incoherent screaming would have been much more effective in my book.
That's just the way you see it. Just like many thought Kamijou's reaction was totally nuts yet it turned out to be a natural reaction next episode. Her frustration reached its peak for a moment. The pain she ignored / suppressed could have led to additional adrenaline and some kind of a stress situation, too. Add SHAFTness and BGM as applejuice pointed out. Really, it's not over the top or anything if you keep everything in mind. And if you want it clarified, just look at her state coming episode I guess.


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So that again beings up the question of what exactly Kyube is.
For the love of Homura, please no.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:16   Link #256
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I took it as "lol,I was a fool to get mad at QB for doing this to me,this is great,he did me a really nice favor,there will be no stopping me in my crusade against witches"

Of course we'll have to see next episode to confirm that
The problem is, what she said was, 'If I do fighting in this way, it doesn't hurt anymore.'
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:17   Link #257
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Originally Posted by estdesoda View Post
At least Homura does not think Kyube as evil.. If she does, she just tell Madoka "yeah that Kyube is just an evil bustad.
Not exactly. Homura said Kyubey himself wouldn't think what he does is evil, but just normal wish granting procedure. Homura's own opinion about him remains a secret, which is consistent with her character
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:18   Link #258
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Well-constructed drama doesn't rely on blatant nonsense like incoherent screaming in my book.
...Because mad laughter constitutes less nonsense?
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:22   Link #259
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Balderdash. Do you not remember one of the major plot points of Nanoha A's?
When exactly was Nanoha betrayed by a friend? She was not close to Graham at all, and Hayate did not betray her because she had no idea what she was doing.

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Moot point given the shipteasing of Nanoha.
Then don't compare Sayaka to Nanoha, because at no point did Nanoha face the kind of psychological torture she's going through now.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:26   Link #260
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...Because mad laughter constitutes less nonsense?
It's much less blatant. One of the main strengths of this show is that it works alot with innuendo and implication. I prefer that to the usual kind of anime storytelling which spells everything out for the simplest viewer to follow. Some people might have a different opinion here, though.

Besides, I see no reason why Sayaka would do "incoherent screaming". I do see however what could cause the reaction at the end.
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