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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-18, 17:28   Link #261
Funkatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I took it as "lol,I was a fool to get mad at QB for doing this to me,this is great,he did me a really nice favor,there will be no stopping me in my crusade against witches"

Of course we'll have to see next episode to confirm that
I saw it more as a desperate letting off of steam. Being a magical girl is all she has left now. She can't be with the man she loves/cares about because in her mind she is a monster/ not human. The only thing she can be now is a magical girl and in the back of her mind she knows that's pretty sad, hence the laughter... or so I interpret. In any other show, she'd break down into tears while she stabs the witch corpse over and over
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:31   Link #262
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Besides, I see no reason why Sayaka would do "incoherent screaming". I do see however what could cause the reaction at the end.
I'd think that a normal person would scream, rather than laugh, when taking all their pent-up emotions out on a monster while being unable to feel anything at all.

How is guttural screaming any more blatant than mad laughter?
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:31   Link #263
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
*checks to see if yesy has realeased episode 7* *nope*

Here we go again

Nutbladder has it as "He was right,if I don't want to I don't have to feel a thing"

so which do I go with?
Both mean the same. If she pushes the pain aside, she won't feel it at all because her soul is separate from her body, as Kyubey explained.

On a symbolic level, getting numb physically is an analogy to her desire of getting rid of her emotional pain.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:33   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Funkatron View Post
I saw it more as a desperate letting off of steam. Being a magical girl is all she has left now. She can't be with the man she loves/cares about because in her mind she is a monster/ not human. The only thing she can be now is a magical girl and in the back of her mind she knows that's pretty sad, hence the laughter... or so I interpret. In any other show, she'd break down into tears while she stabs the witch corpse over and over
Exactly 100% my opinion.

Guys, she's hurting and in pain - BADLY. And we're not talking bruises or wounds of the fight against the witch. But if she hurls herself against the enemy, then she can block out the pain she's feeling over her personal disaster. It doesn't hurt her anymore. When she's hunting witches, she can forget.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:33   Link #265
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Justsomeguy and Mentar - Why is it so hard for you two to accept that not everybody shares your opinions, or sees things the way you do?

Accept that not everybody shares your perspective and opinions, and move on.


Sayaka isn't being doomed to a lonely existence as long as Madoka is there for her.

Graham and the two catgirls may not have been Nanoha's friends, per se, but she did trust them, and they did betray that trust.


Also, I was simply comparing Sayaka's personality to Nanoha's. What does that have to do with what both characters have gone through? Sayaka can have a much bleaker situation than Nanoha did, and still have a personality similar to Nanoha's.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:40   Link #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
*checks to see if yesy has realeased episode 7* *nope*

Here we go again

Nutbladder has it as "He was right,if I don't want to I don't have to feel a thing"

so which do I go with?
"Hontou da! Sono kininareba, itami nante-- kanzen ni kesschaerunda!!" is what I heard.

My literal take:
"It's true! If I want it (to), something like pain... completely disappears!"

How I interpret it:
"He's right! If I fight like this, I don't feel one bit pain!"
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:41   Link #267
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Justsomeguy and Mentar - Why is it so hard for you two to accept that not everybody shares your opinions, or sees things the way you do?

Accept that not everybody shares your perspective and opinions, and move on.
Oh, but I do accept that, I even listed it as option. Just please YOU accept too that I'm genuinely speechless how one can so consequently block out all the (IMHO pretty obvious) connotations to come to your conclusion. And that your criticism is founded ONLY under the assumption that your personal interpretation is right.

So we're back to the usual. Let's wait for the next week, until things develop even more. And just let me ask: Do you _really_ believe that this will be like Nanoha, just a tad darker?

I mean, REALLY? Hontou ni??
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:42   Link #268
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
*checks to see if yesy has realeased episode 7* *nope*

Here we go again

Nutbladder has it as "He was right,if I don't want to I don't have to feel a thing"

so which do I go with?
What Sayaka said actually is;

*Literal "That's right! If I have this kind of mindset (or simply 'If I just pull myself together'), I can utterly destroy any sort of pain!"

GG is more right with the localisation. Sayaka's basically saying that if she fight with this (mad/monster/inhuman) feeling, she can escape from the suffering.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:42   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Justsomeguy and Mentar - Why is it so hard for you two to accept that not everybody shares your opinions, or sees things the way you do?

Accept that not everybody shares your perspective and opinions, and move on.
1) Because your views are completely flawed, and your comparisons to other mahou shoujo from other shows are pretty ridiculous. 2) We have a right to speak just as much as you do.

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Graham and the two catgirls may not have been Nanoha's friends, per se, but she did trust them, and they did betray that trust.
Wow! You seriously do not understand the difference between being betrayed by somebody you considered a friend, and by somebody you don't care about?

Quote:
Also, I was simply comparing Sayaka's personality to Nanoha's. What does that have to do with what both characters have gone through? Sayaka can have a much bleaker situation than Nanoha did, and still have a personality similar to Nanoha's.
I was originally responding to Kaijo, but you butted in by comparing Graham betraying Nanoha to Sayaka being betrayed by QB, a creature that she "saved" from Homura and did not doubt until now. The only similarity between Nanoha and Sayaka are their impulsive natures, and they've become completely different due to influence of the different natures of the characters around them.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:43   Link #270
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Graham and the two catgirls may not have been Nanoha's friends, per se, but she did trust them, and they did betray that trust.
Sorry to butt in, but, as far as I can remember, Nanoha really barely had anything to do with Graham. I think the character that was really betrayed as Chrono and company, but I really don't remember Nanoha to be remotely affected or paying mind to Graham.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:47   Link #271
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I see a lot of references to Sayaka "snapping" or losing her mind at the end. Was this an impression folks got from the raws, or am I perhaps seeing this differently?

I have to say, I'd be really disappointed if they had her snap, if only because it would be the obvious development. "Hey, we broke the cutie, now she's crazy and possibly turning heel." Man, I sure hope that's not where they're going.

My take would be that there's a subtle difference between losing your humanity and losing your mind. Sayaka's character arc foreshadowed that her morality would end up whiplashing on her, and creating a tragic antagonist. But even now, she's not giving in to her jealousy of Hitomi, or even abandoning her principles of protecting people as a MG. What she's losing her grip on isn't her idealism or her sanity; it's herself.

Consider that her breakdown in front of Madoka comes less from believing she's lost any chance with her love interest, or out of anger at Hitomi, and more out of her self-loathing for ever even considering that she could have just let Hitomi be killed by the witch. She hates what she's become, both figuratively and also literally, in the sense that she sees herself as a walking corpse who could never sustain a relationship with a human.

In her berserker moment at the end, she realizes that the pain goes away when she stops thinking of herself as a human being -- as represented by her body -- and instead gives herself over to being a MG. Of course, she's talking about physical pain, but one doesn't need a microscope to read between the lines. This to me is a MUCH more interesting development than another sweet-girl-tortured-until-she-goes-bats#*$. The differences may turn out to be subtle, but they made a big deal out of her remaining steadfastly principled throughout the episode, and Homura DID point out that as a MG, she's literally not human. We may be looking not at a distortion or destruction, but at a disconnection. And frankly, that could be much more tragic than violent insanity.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:48   Link #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Both mean the same. If she pushes the pain aside, she won't feel it at all because her soul is separate from her body, as Kyubey explained.


Right,I think I just missunderstood the first quote as saying that she had to fight like a maniac to not feel pain..Which was kinda confusing me
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:51   Link #273
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For Nanoha to mirror whats going on in Madoka Magica, Yuuno would have to coldly revealthat the use of Raging Heart had some previously undisclosed side effect, like it made you grow a purple horn on your forehead or made you a futa or some other kind of freak. As stated above, Graham's betrayal barely registered with Nanoha, so it's a moot point
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:54   Link #274
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would reply on a couple of things but... [looks at walls upon walls of texts ... shudders] ah no thanks... just my own thoughts then

on sayaka

she did say "*cannot* hug nor kiss Kamijou with this (zombie)body..."I take as her saying that it can never be a regular relationship, which is her idealism getting in the way. not the literal can't touch>hug>kiss. maybe she feels it's being unfair to Kamijou, or that she can never tell him her true situation, or maybe even partial disgust at her state. but of course if it's true love, she can find a way, well Chii of chobits did find love yes? and she's a Pasocon. As for her jealousy regarding Hitomi i think it's just an initial reaction, well everyone has ugly thoughts now and again, it would contribute to her breakdown. but I think idealism and her belief that she can't be with Kamijou because of her "zombie" status is the overiding factor. what would be tragic is if it turns out as i said in my earlier post that hitomi was actually just doing it for her, to make her overcome her fear of rejection. On people not understanding why she will "freak out" and be uncomfortable with her soul out of the body. remember she's very much an idealistic 14 year old girl who seems haven't really seen too many animes/manga like a lot of us hardened guys & otakus

sad her state at the end, hope she can recover (well there's the "light at the end" comment by her seiyu. am i correct?)

on QB

haha more questionable methods. Torture to prove a point? and for quite some time too. too long for me. still not much info. But if asking QB will just turn into some more torture... ehe ( if he would even answer straight and not evade)

P.S. if it was me i'd still ask. lack of info can turn more painful in the end. but i'm not one them. and the girls are not like me.
P.P.S. but i like the girls ^^
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:54   Link #275
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Originally Posted by ThereminVox View Post
I see a lot of references to Sayaka "snapping" or losing her mind at the end. Was this an impression folks got from the raws, or am I perhaps seeing this differently?

I have to say, I'd be really disappointed if they had her snap, if only because it would be the obvious development. "Hey, we broke the cutie, now she's crazy and possibly turning heel." Man, I sure hope that's not where they're going.

My take would be that there's a subtle difference between losing your humanity and losing your mind. Sayaka's character arc foreshadowed that her morality would end up whiplashing on her, and creating a tragic antagonist. But even now, she's not giving in to her jealousy of Hitomi, or even abandoning her principles of protecting people as a MG. What she's losing her grip on isn't her idealism or her sanity; it's herself.

Consider that her breakdown in front of Madoka comes less from believing she's lost any chance with her love interest, or out of anger at Hitomi, and more out of her self-loathing for ever even considering that she could have just let Hitomi be killed by the witch. She hates what she's become, both figuratively and also literally, in the sense that she sees herself as a walking corpse who could never sustain a relationship with a human.

In her berserker moment at the end, she realizes that the pain goes away when she stops thinking of herself as a human being -- as represented by her body -- and instead gives herself over to being a MG. Of course, she's talking about physical pain, but one doesn't need a microscope to read between the lines. This to me is a MUCH more interesting development than another sweet-girl-tortured-until-she-goes-bats#*$. The differences may turn out to be subtle, but they made a big deal out of her remaining steadfastly principled throughout the episode, and Homura DID point out that as a MG, she's literally not human. We may be looking not at a distortion or destruction, but at a disconnection. And frankly, that could be much more tragic than violent insanity.
Sorry to make such a short reply to such a long post like that.... But subtle? unless I was missing something there was no subtlety about it...
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:58   Link #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I guess I failed to convey the proper analogy.
To put it in a bullet point: let's assume, A and B. A earns 5000, B earns 8000. B isn't really satisfied, but A believe it is B's situation is "nice". Does this mean that B has to follow the same conclusion?
Of course, the analogy is faulty because of the lack of circumstances. What I was trying to point is that you simply cannot conclude "someone shouldn't complain if someone else is fine with the same situation, or something worse".
As many have said to me over this series, we do make judgments based on our own situations and experiences. I can very well state that B shouldn't complain, because they have it decently good. B complaining comes across to me like a spoiled rich kid. Sure, we'd all like more, but beyond a certain standard of living, it becomes poor form to complain about not having something that many other people would want.

[quote]A given situation can only be gauged by that person alone, when it is about emotional response.[quote]

Then you are telling me we can never cast judgment someone's emotional response to a situation? say, a racist with a gun is suddenly dropped into a room of black people, and he panicks and shoots a bunch of them. So the given situation can only be judged by that person alone, about his emotional response?

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Kyoko can live with that, but is it really something she would have accepted readily if Kyuubey was honest from the get go? As far it is shown in Episode 6, she wasn't pleased by this prospect a single bit.
Not pleased that she wasn't told. After thinking about it, she was fine with it. So I don't know about you, but given that, I would be forced to conclude she would have been fine with it if told up front.

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So I will use the very same point you are always claiming: do you have proof that Kyoko is "fine living like that"? Can you attest that she isn't convincing herself that it is "fine"? Can you really prove that she wasn't pulling a facade?
Can I prove a negative? No, I can't, and I think you'd know that no one can. All I can point to is that she herself said she was fine with it. Until I'm told or shown otherwise, I have to believe she is.

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Jab aside, I personally don't think the answer of that is important. The main point is that I just can't see an actual objective and practical way to -compare- very personal situations between different individuals, even if the said situations are exactly the same.
Well, we'll have to disagree, then. Society itself seeks to judge situations and compare them when it creates enforced morals in the form of laws. The state of mind is very much a legal concept(at least in the US), so society would disagree with you that someone's emotional mindset cannot be judged.

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Then let's take another "subtle" example: Homura explained that no one (as, other MG) would believe her. I personally see it as a denial, which means that should reality strike them hard, they will have as much difficulty as Sayaka to accept that.
Not believing could be denial, but also could be just not believing her. Although I find this quite interesting, because she could say, "Well, ask Kyube if you don't believe me. Then decide for yourself based on what he says." Given that Kyube hasn't outright lied or refused to answer (and indeed, has answered every question asked of him), I can't see what the issue is. She still could have told them, and insisted they ask Kyube himself.

Quote:
Also, considering how Homura was behaving with Madoka, I don't think you can call that "accepted it". Feel free to disagree, but to me, Homura basically forsake herself and just proceed to her objective, it doesn't mean she can live with it.
In fact, despite being the most cynical, she herself contemplates the statement that she isn't human... and that's from your level headed character.
Except there is a vast difference: Sayaka's status is impossible to reverse and was inflicted to her while she didn't ask for it. Of course, you probably gonna use example such like a handicapped person born as they are, but they -lived- like that from the start. Whereas Sayaka was perfectly normal and got the short end of a stick which wasn't what she was asking for.
Choosing to live with it is one form of acceptance. I should note that I don't consider Homura level-headed, as I've blatantly questioned her methods compared with her stated goals.

One point of note: we don't technically know if it is irreversible. We only know that Sayaka has entered into a contract that cannot be broken. Considering we have head of no limits on wishes, it would seem possible to simply wish Sayaka back to normal. Of course, that would take someone else to take up the MG mantle, but statistically speaking, there has to be someone that would take the job despite knowing all about it.

Of course, our beloved heroines probably won't ever get around to having this thought. They haven't even considered whether they could have brought Mami back to life.

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In the end, she is torn by the conflict generated that her goal and means were upside down. She didn't save Kyousuke in order to be a MG, she turned into a MG to save Kyousuke for her own sake. She thought she was doing the former, but she is actually doing the latter, and it is striking her badly as she realize she isn't righteous as she thought to act.
I see the emphasis placed on this, and it doesn't sit right with me. It's almost like you're stating that this is her only goal, and it is somehow bad. Wanting to heal Kamijou and wanting to protect the people of the town aren't mutually exclusive goals. And we are all selfish, so trying to rag on her about this, reeks of hypocrisy. And, damn, she feels guilt about the tiniest of things! So personally, I cut her slack. She didn't wish for Kamijou to love her, or to replace his love of the violin with a love for her; she simply wished his hand to heal. Of course she loves him and wants him, but she's well aware of using underhanded means to get that, and is very much afraid of crossing that potential line.

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The trope itself isn't the issue, it is how it is used that can become a liability. Expecting everything to turn exactly like a trope is foolish to be frank, and likewise, expecting a trope not working because all conditions aren't filled isn't any good either. In the end, I would rather gauge by the situation itself, than just comparing with a stoic example and deliberately saying "not the same / same" just because of arbitrarely criteria made by whoever created the trope.
You can't get away from tropes, no matter how hard you try. They are either used, subverted, or averted. But in all cases, all stories are made up of tropes. As the tropes page says, this is not a bad thing. Much like story elements of "boy meets girl" everything has been done before. What matters is the execution, as long as the writer is aware of potential issues and addresses them. Cursed by Awesome isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on how it is used. If the writer wants to show that a character is whiny, then it is one possible avenue.

But saying, "I don't prefer to use tropes" is a bit like saying, "I don't plan to use a plot or characters or a setting." You pretty much can't write a story without them.

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And I don't think "accept it" is always the smarter choice, because it would mean that you would be "okay" that the said source of the issue was fine. Accepting the situation may be synonym of "moving on" at times, but it is also synonym of "turning a blind eye to it".
Eh, those aren't the same things, at least in this context. Accepting it means you are aware of it, but you don't let it get you down. Turning a blind eye to it means you try to ignore it and not think about it. It is quite possible to be aware of who you are, without turning a blind eye to it.

Quote:
I think there are enough details already explained before: that Hitomi was shown interested in Episode 2
Of all those, this is the only remotely close one, but even then, it was one throwaway line that didn't indicate she was interested in him at all. If Gen was trying to use this to set up as a foreshadow, he didn't do a very good job, because out of all the predictions here, no one predicted it. In order to work as foreshadowing, at least someone has to get it.

Quote:
And the good cry of Sayaka doesn't mean she deep down accepted it and acknowlodged what she said to Madoka. Even if she realize the issue, her conflict definitely didn't get any answer at all, leading her to snap.
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Sadness
Acceptance

We see her go through these steps. This is how humans cope. Yeah, she's not back at 100%, but the psycho ending was a bit out of place because of this. I could have understood her continuing to be sad, and possibly depressed, but the ending was a bit extreme.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:58   Link #277
ThereminVox
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Sorry to make such a short reply to such a long post like that.... But subtle? unless I was missing something there was no subtlety about it...
Sorry, I was probably unclear. Didn't proofread as well as I should have. I meant that the difference in how her story ends might not be significantly different regardless of whether she's losing her mind or her humanity. What I meant by that was she could still become a danger to herself and others, but for different reasons than "she's snapped".
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Old 2011-02-18, 18:04   Link #278
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
*checks to see if yesy has realeased episode 7* *nope*

Here we go again

Nutbladder has it as "He was right,if I don't want to I don't have to feel a thing"

so which do I go with?
Sayaka said:
「ほんとだ!その気にいれば、痛みなんて…完全に消しちゃいるだ!」

So I think either one works..
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Old 2011-02-18, 18:04   Link #279
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Sorry to butt in, but, as far as I can remember, Nanoha really barely had anything to do with Graham. I think the character that was really betrayed as Chrono and company, but I really don't remember Nanoha to be remotely affected or paying mind to Graham.

I'll just add that the betrayal hardly changed how Nanoha deal with people and the matter of trust in the future at all.
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Old 2011-02-18, 18:13   Link #280
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It kinda got off point a bit, too. The main comparison was to show that Nanoha had her life screwed with just as much, if not more so, than Sayaka.
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