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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-19, 08:38   Link #321
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I never subscribed to the Monkey Paw theory personally, but I would have to disagree with your result here. Because for Sayaka, the outcome is totally Monkey Paw. It's blatantly obvious that her real wish behind healing Kamijo was to be with him, and now Hitomi is about to take him away from her. Likewise, Kyoko's wish turned into the opposite of what she wanted. The wishes didn't bring them happiness, but rather the opposite. Monkey Paw indeed.

I disagree
Monkey's paw screws you right away,this is different,you get screwed over after and not really by the wish but because you assumed what the concequences of that wish would be and assumed wrong.


In Monkey's paw,when you wish for lots of money your son dies and as a result you're given lots of money,here its more like you get lots of money with this new money you buy your son a new car,he ends up killing himself in a car crash.
Both end up bad but there's a difference between the two.

That difference means that as much as I don't trust QB I still trust him more than the monkey's paw.
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Old 2011-02-19, 08:38   Link #322
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
I completely disagree. If Sayaka want to be with Kamijo, she should wish for that. A monkey paw in this situation, would be like Sayaka wish for Kamijo's hand to heal so he can play violin again, and ends up Kamijo's hand is heal by sacrificing his violin playing ability. That would be the monkey paw situation.
Look, there's really no point arguing about definitions here. A "Monkey Paw" wish is a wish which is faithfully granted by the letter of the word, but the outcome is absolutely against the desires of the one making the wish. Nothing more, nothing less. By this definition, Sayaka and Kyoko have been screwed over. What they were wishing for was granted, but the resulting outcome is disastrous for both of them. You can't seriously contest that.

I'm not even saying that there was some malicious intent causing the bad outcome. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. I was pointing it out because Triple_R wrote that QB did _not_ grant Monkey Paw wishes, and that is - in my opinion - extremely questionable. Sayaka and Kyoko WERE screwed over.
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Old 2011-02-19, 08:53   Link #323
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It might actually be relevant to point people to the original story by Jacobs to see why there exists a similarity to the Monkey's Paw short story to Kyoko and Sayaka's current fate.

The Monkey's Paw
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Old 2011-02-19, 09:25   Link #324
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Angst over the Soul gem business is difficult for me to sympathise with because its so far removed from normal experience. If Sayaka's brain had been taken out and put in a jar, that might demonstrate the doubt over the reality of her experiences she must be feeling a bit better. Even if she feels real sensations, via her body, she's worse off than someone stuck in the Matrix, because it's an illusion that she's the one feeling or doing anything, and she's knows it

Without a soul, the Sayaka who's walking around, and who would be in a relationship with Kujo isn't the same girl that he grew up with; asking him to go out with a clone of Sayaka would be much the same. Then there's the trouble if he finds out, or if Sayaka starts going out with him and gets killed...no wonder the poor girl's not feeling too good.

As for Kyouko, (brilliant sequence there) her wish might have caused her father's congregation to sincerely believe, rather than just being mind control, if it simply communicated a full understanding of the message preached. The father probably still couldn't have stomached relying on occult powers rather than the Holy Spirit...even so, killing your family is not good.

I'd guessed Kyuoko's wish was simply to have a constant supply of food, based on the idea that something made her selfish before her contract. Do you suppose she gets the food by stealing it, or from humans who were killed by witches?
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Old 2011-02-19, 10:17   Link #325
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Concerning "tragedy," my (personal/biased) definition is that a tragedy is when everything goes right, but for all the wrong (and undesirable) reasons. Family suffers from debt, but are happy together, in the process of achieving greater happiness by loosing the debt they lose each other (possibly death). ¶ Or alternatively, when something goes right—usually a goal, that is suppose to make things better—but everything else falls apart (not necessarily as a consequence). For example, Boy and Girl are childhood friends and go searching for lost object, on the way they get close, discover their hidden feelings, and girl confesses; once they find the object everything breaks.

I guess technically a easy way to explain it would be "when plot and story go in opposite directions."

So anyway, I guess given the state of Madoka I'm fine with it being a tragedy (for now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alarmadadna hadi View Post
Quote:
Or maybe...
Hitomi was lying
she just said that to make Sayaka confessing to Kamijo
You know, this is exactly my initial understanding of that scene
I got the same feeling.

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Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
If Sayaka's brain had been taken out and put in a jar, that might demonstrate the doubt over the reality of her experiences she must be feeling a bit better.
According to the explanation by Kyubee technically that's what happened. Hint: the jar is very small.
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Old 2011-02-19, 11:00   Link #326
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Concerning "tragedy," my (personal/biased) definition is that a tragedy is when everything goes right, but for all the wrong (and undesirable) reasons. Family suffers from debt, but are happy together, in the process of achieving greater happiness by loosing the debt they lose each other (possibly death). ¶ Or alternatively, when something goes right—usually a goal, that is suppose to make things better—but everything else falls apart (not necessarily as a consequence). For example, Boy and Girl are childhood friends and go searching for lost object, on the way they get close, discover their hidden feelings, and girl confesses; once they find the object everything breaks.

I guess technically a easy way to explain it would be "when plot and story go in opposite directions."

So anyway, I guess given the state of Madoka I'm fine with it being a tragedy (for now).

I got the same feeling.

According to the explanation by Kyubee technically that's what happened. Hint: the jar is very small.
If the brain is the hardware, the soul is the software. Basically, MG's bodies are now dumb terminals being run remotely
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Old 2011-02-19, 11:07   Link #327
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I'm more of the opinion that this is more of a Greek Tragedy than anything. Nietzsche had his own view of what the art of tragic plays is.
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Old 2011-02-19, 11:08   Link #328
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Borrowing from someone on another forum, but I thought this idea was interesting
Quote:
I have no doubt it's because she stole it and/or stole/extorted the money used to buy it. I'll take it a step further - she probably nicked the food or the money or both off of the people she who she sat back and let the witches eat. If witches just took out a family, that's a whole house to loot.
That'd be messed up, but I wouldn't put it past her
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Old 2011-02-19, 11:42   Link #329
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Episode 7
Really good episode this week! This was a building episode, so there was nothing earth-shattering, but there was lots of good character development this time around. I was impressed by the whole confrontation between Sayaka and Kyoko. Both cases of selfless selfishness wishes gone bad.

At this point the whole "Sayaka will eventually become a witch" is looking very likely, especially with the whole sequence at the end. This show sure loves its "It got worse" trope.

...Speaking of, given how horrified Madoka is of the whole lich/magical girl thing right now, just how bad do things need to get for her to make that contract? Episode 1 bad?

Well, things were bad before, but It Got Worse.

Kyubey is looking even scarier now. We do now know that he isn't technically evil, but very morally orange: whatever morals he has, it's completely alien.


Ack. Count of Monte Cristo bedsheets...

The ruined church had some really neat looking art. Actually, I've been impressed mostly across the board by the show. Especially the final sequence... This show NEEDS to come out on R1 DVD/Blu-Ray.
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Old 2011-02-19, 11:50   Link #330
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That'd be messed up, but I wouldn't put it past her
You mean past Urobuchi don't you.
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Old 2011-02-19, 12:00   Link #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
It might actually be relevant to point people to the original story by Jacobs to see why there exists a similarity to the Monkey's Paw short story to Kyoko and Sayaka's current fate.

The Monkey's Paw
It's important to note why the Monkey's Paw theory doesn't work here. Monkey's Paw wishes go wrong due to outside circumstances that one cannot control. As in the story: Mr. White wishes for £200. Their son is killed by machinery at his company, and they get compensation of £200. The killing of their son was something outside their control, thus the wish was fulfilled but in a bad way.

The only bad thing we have seen so far in Sayaka's case, is Hitomi admitting that she has a crush on him, but acknowledges Sayaka loves him more. We haven't seen how Kamijou feels. And what's more, Sayaka's situation is due to her own mental feelings; she is still completely free to approach Kamijou and confess her feelings. So only Sayaka is preventing Sayaka from realizing her dream. Nothing bad happened as a direct result of Kamijou getting his hand healed.

If Sayaka's wish was a Monkey Paw, then perhaps a doctor would have come along talking about a hand transplant, and as luck would have it, Kamijou's family was killed and yet a hand of one of them survived, making it a perfect match to heal Kamijou.

The whole "Soul outside of body" thing is not a result of the wish in particular, as it is just a consequence of becoming an MG in the first place.

Also, we have Mami's wish which was fulfilled exactly, with no other bad points, other than the MG angle, which happens regardless of wish. Even if you you don't buy the Sayaka reasoning above, Mami is the sole point that is needed to disprove that wishes are Monkey's Paws. And no, becoming an MG isn't part of the Monkey Paw process, because it is a known effect. Monkey Paw wishes have unknown effects happen that are tied to the wish itself.

Even Homura acknowledges that Kyube's wishes are real miracles.

Lastly, Kyoko's life went wrong when she told her father about the wish. If she had never mentioned it, then nothing would have changed. She made her own life go downhill.

So, in conclusion, Kyube's wishes are real miracles, and this isn't a monkey paw scenario.
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Old 2011-02-19, 12:42   Link #332
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If you ask me, Sayaka and Kyoko got what they told Kyubey they wanted.

They just lacked the foresight to realize the depth of their wishes.
For example, Sayaka has a crush on Kamijou. She thought that healing Kamijou would improve her chances; unfortunately, her wish seems to have caused the opposite effect. Now she's completely depressed.

Kyoko wished that people would listen to her father's teachings. They did... as mindless slaves. Kyoko's wish was exactly the opposite of what her father wished for: He wanted people to take responsibility, reform, and change their ways. He didn't want some magical force to force them into changing.

Quote:
Also, we have Mami's wish which was fulfilled exactly, with no other bad points, other than the MG angle, which happens regardless of wish.
On the contrary! Mami looked rather sad. She explicitly states that she has no family, no friends... and she risks her life every day for people she doesn't even know. Would she have been better off refusing to accept the contract and dying a normal girl, rather than living a life of loneliness and constantly fighting dangerous witches? Debatable, but I think the former is better.

Miracles are not perfect. Wishes are imperfect.

As this episode shows, there will always be a balance between happiness and sadness. Sayaka paid for Kamijou's happiness with her own sadness. Kyoko paid for her own happiness with her father's death. You can try to escape the balance by causing miracles to happen... but over time, fate will prevail.

On an unrelated note, I think Madoka will become a Puella Magi within the next 3 episodes. Whether she does so Kyubey's contract, I cannot say... I just hope there is a second path that doesn't cost so much happiness. Maybe Homura knows of this second path.
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Old 2011-02-19, 13:03   Link #333
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I'm thinking about what Kyoko said (from gg) "Miracles aren't free. When you wish for hope, it creates an equivalent despair"

I wonder when/where will this "equivalent despair" happen? Assuming that what Kyoko said is true then I think that what caused Kyoko, Sayaka and may be all other mahou shoujo to suffer is actually the impact from the wish itself. They pray for miracles and cause big happiness. That's why their fate is destined to be doom or suffer at the greater level. Because they choose to alter their/other fate so they will pay for it at the cost of their entire life. It just like Homura said that there's nothing good becoming a mahou shoujo because they will eventually lose everything. I believe that may be all of these misfortunes so far were not merely coincidence but they were inevitable.
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Old 2011-02-19, 13:16   Link #334
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Lastly, Kyoko's life went wrong when she told her father about the wish. If she had never mentioned it, then nothing would have changed. She made her own life go downhill.
Kyoko told her father about the wish? I thought he found out in someway like talking to one of the people who went to his church. Well... That's the only way I can predict on how he found out, but still when did Kyoko say that Kyoko told her father about the wish?
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Old 2011-02-19, 13:53   Link #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
They just lacked the foresight to realize the depth of their wishes.
For example, Sayaka has a crush on Kamijou. She thought that healing Kamijou would improve her chances; unfortunately, her wish seems to have caused the opposite effect. Now she's completely depressed.
I hear this from time to time, but I have to disagree. Sure, Sayaka likes Kamijou, but her wish was ultimately an unselfish one. She could have worded it in much more selfish ways. She could have wished for him to love her, or to be healed and love her for it. Or just be grateful to her. The fact that she has acknowledged this herself, means she understands her position.

We're all selfish, but we can still make altruistic choices. Sayaka realizes what she wants, but she ultimately makes the more altruistic choice. Sure, she would hope Kamijou comes to love her, like any of us who do something for someone else does.

But I'm not willing to condemn her for the tiny selfish thoughts that we all have.

Quote:
On the contrary! Mami looked rather sad. She explicitly states that she has no family, no friends... and she risks her life every day for people she doesn't even know. Would she have been better off refusing to accept the contract and dying a normal girl, rather than living a life of loneliness and constantly fighting dangerous witches? Debatable, but I think the former is better.
Not quite debatable, since she clearly stated she was grateful for the extra life she was granted.

Quote:
On an unrelated note, I think Madoka will become a Puella Magi within the next 3 episodes. Whether she does so Kyubey's contract, I cannot say... I just hope there is a second path that doesn't cost so much happiness. Maybe Homura knows of this second path.
What I parsed from Kyube's words, is that he separates the soul from the body to better protect both parts. If the body takes critical damage, the soul can be lost. But once the soul is protected in the gem, the body can take enormous punishment while the soul is safe.

It almost sounds like one can use magic while keeping their soul in their body... it's just they'd be more vulnerable to pain and death. So Madoka might very well become an MG with her soul still in her body, but just technically be more vulnerable. Still, she'd get away with it because she has so much magic power.
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Old 2011-02-19, 13:55   Link #336
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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
And why it is easier than direct attack? More, why it is easier than direct attack on non zombie girl?
Eh because you could remove the thing with a single finger and throw it 101m while you would need head or heart destruction for rthe same immediate death blow effect?

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
But what meaning? We still don’t know. Scary? Yes. Bad? May be not as bad as we imagine.
"Not as bad" already points out that you think it is bad. If you got your arm sliced off, its not as bad as if your head was cut off right?

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
But you can be killed. You probably even aren’t going to live long enough to feel the difference.
So if you were a competent policeman walking the beat and you can never retire even if you survive to a hundred (so you walk the beat with your cane) its not a bad thing at all because you'll might be shot and killed before that?

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
Only evidence we have - Mamis death - hints the contrary.
Oh so you're saying if Mami's soul gem was worn on her foot and she got nom nomed on half her body, her sould gem would not be trapped in the witch dimension? It would somehow escape the dimension? Maybe teleportation?

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
And throwing it away. Again, only marginally easier than direct attack on non zombie girl.
You do know that objects have momentum transferred and move in the direction of the force that acts on it? And that the momentum increases as the force is increased?

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
How?
Call Sayaka by phone. "Oh hey Sayaka go rob that bank then drop it off at location X or i walk away with this nice bauble i have."

Seriously is it really so hard to come up with ways to ensure you are not subject to attack while your slave girl commits crimes for you?

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
Does it matter?
Shintoism is quite accommodating religion.
Using magic by itself considered blaspheme in some religions.
Try and ask a priest about such situation. Even more strict religions are mach more accommodating than you think.
What exactly is the problem? “no idea”? But permanent destruction is sound idea.
So, tell me in any scripture of any religion, what happens if your soul gets transferred into some object? Please do try and ask a priest to tell you and show you where in the scripture handles such a case and tell me.

As for "does it matter", tell me does it matter what happens when you die when you have physical evidence of the existence of a "soul" (and its shiny too)

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And why it cannot be strong enough? Sayaka's blades are throw away weapons.
Eh, did i say it "cannot be strong enough"? If you have evidence that shows it is super strong, feel free to point it out

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So as result we have essential feature with several major and obvious flaws.
Fixed
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Old 2011-02-19, 13:57   Link #337
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I never subscribed to the Monkey Paw theory personally, but I would have to disagree with your result here. Because for Sayaka, the outcome is totally Monkey Paw.
But that's her own fault, and I say that as someone who likes Sayaka.

She made a wish for a guy that she loved dearly without first confessing to him and determining if he loves her back or not (keep in mind that just because he's bed-ridden doesn't mean she can't do this; a love confession doesn't require the other person to be fully physically able). She willingly took a huge risk here, of her own choice. Kyubey has nothing to do with that, this is totally on Sayaka. Honestly, if I was in her shoes and had her feelings, I would have confessed to Kamijo and see if he feels the same way about me before I make a wish for him with romantic desire being the main true reason behind that wish.

A true Monkey's Paw is when the means used to grant a wish is one that makes the wish regrettable. It would be like if Kamijo's hand had been healed by replacing it with... a healthy and functioning monkey's paw.

But that didn't happen. His hand was healed perfectly, and is very much a normal healthy human hand. The wish, by all accounts, was granted honestly and fairly. Even Homura admits that Kyubey is selling actual "miracles", with all the positive connotation that this word holds.

To me, it's darker when a person is screwed over by things beyond their control than them being screwed over by their own personal failings. To me, it's more disturbing and horrifying to see a person badly hurt or killed by things outside their control than it is to see that happen by their own reckless actions. Both of them are tragic, of course, but one is a logical consequence of questionable actions, while the other is due to a truly pitiable dark fate being thrust unwillingly upon someone.


Quote:

It's blatantly obvious that her real wish behind healing Kamijo was to be with him,
Well, one could argue that she should have wished for him to fall in love with her, then.


Quote:
...and now Hitomi is about to take him away from her. Likewise, Kyoko's wish turned into the opposite of what she wanted.
Because of her father snapping, not because of any hidden catch to the wish. Not that we're aware of yet, anyway.


Quote:
The wishes didn't bring them happiness, but rather the opposite. Monkey Paw indeed.
No, not Monkey Paw at all, imo.


Quote:
But only because the story _slowed down_ for more exposition and storytelling.
Possibly so. Or maybe the people who have consistently predicted the worst-case scenario from the very beginning are simply wrong.


Quote:
What people like me were predicting to happen after ep3 is happening NOW.
To your credit, you have been very bold in putting yourself out there, and making numerous speculations. It gives us a lengthy record that can be evaluated in retrospect, essentially.

So, let's look at some of your speculations one by one.

Here you argue that Madoka is going to be a central active player, and that she's playing the role of Faust. In fairness, you're probably half-right. If this anime is an analogue to Faust, then Madoka is likely playing the role of Faust, yes. However, Madoka hasn't exactly been a central active player in this for a few episodes now. For the last two or three episodes, she's on the periphery, with Sayaka being the one in the limelight. Heck, Kyubey didn't even try to contract with Madoka in Episode 7.


Here you make a lot of predictions. None of them have been proven false yet, but none of them have been proven true either. At least one of them (Madoka's wish as a Magical Girl - back when she was one - has been for a great mother and a loving family) looked very unlikely to be true to me back then, and it looks even less likely to be true to me now. The reason being that if this is true, one would expect Madoka's family to have a more prominent role in these last few episodes, as that would be a good way to build up to a later revelation of Madoka's family only existing due to a wish she once made. Other than a brief conversation between Madoka and her mom in Episode 6, Madoka's family has been nowhere to be seen for awhile now.


Here you made a few different predictions. You argued that you were 66% sure that Mami knows or at least suspects that witches with grief seeds are actually fallen magical girls. Now we know Mami wasn't even aware of the soul gem revelation that was made in Episode 6, so it seems extremely unlikely that Mami would have known that witches are fallen magical girls (and even this witch=fallen magical girl speculation is itself not confirmed yet - I'll concede that it looks more likely to be true with the events of Episode 7, but it's not confirmed yet).

You also wrote "Remember the wonderful family life of Madoka in ep1? Prepare for some major ruins. Should Mom be promoted to lead the company, it’s going to become very ugly. Mark my words." Well, no major ruins when it comes to Madoka's family yet, and you made this prediction quite some time ago. In fact, Madoka's family has been shunted into the background, big time. The whole plotline of Madoka's mom wanting to lead the company has been completely dropped, or at least left hanging for several episodes now.


Long story short, while I will give you credit and say that your more general predictions of "It's going to get darker. It's going to get darker." have been generally true (albeit in a slow and gradual manner) your more specific predictions are very hit-and-miss.

So do I think this show will get darker? Yes. You've proven your case there.

Am I going to assume a specific worst-case scenario? No, not at all. A lot of the specific worst-case predictions simply haven't come to pass, and at least some of them (such as the monkey's paw catch) likely never will.
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:24   Link #338
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Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Kyoko told her father about the wish? I thought he found out in someway like talking to one of the people who went to his church. Well... That's the only way I can predict on how he found out, but still when did Kyoko say that Kyoko told her father about the wish?
I imagine that Kyoko's father could tell when his followers were mindless zombies. He must have asked Kyoko about it. Logically, either Kyubey or Kyoko must have told her father about the wish, because we know that only Kyubey and his contractor know about the contract.

Or someone else knew about the contract, and tipped off Kyoko's father... but that's going into the speculator's realm.

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Not quite debatable, since she clearly stated she was grateful for the extra life she was granted.
Perhaps, but Mami didn't sound or look very enthusiastic when she said that. The only time Mami looked really happy was when she was with Madoka. It just leads me to believe that all Mami ever wanted were friends... and that her cool exterior hides her soft interior. I think there's a case to be made that Mami had regrets about her decision.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I hear this from time to time, but I have to disagree. Sure, Sayaka likes Kamijou, but her wish was ultimately an unselfish one. She could have worded it in much more selfish ways. She could have wished for him to love her, or to be healed and love her for it. Or just be grateful to her. The fact that she has acknowledged this herself, means she understands her position.
This is a good point... if Sayaka were truly selfish, then she would have wished for Kamijou to be her man-slave. I don't think that self-interest was the only reason Sayaka wished for Kamijou. (Although it may have sounded like that, I admit.)

Because she loves Kamijou, Sayaka is willing to surrender a wish: this goes beyond altruism alone. If she was completely altruistic, she would have wished for all the world's problems to go away! But her feelings cause Sayaka to focus on Kamijou alone...

I mean that Sayaka could not foresee what a supposedly innocent miracle would have brought upon herself... in wishing for Kamijou's happiness, she inherently made her own life miserable. I don't think Sayaka knew that her little miracle was going to be this emotionally painful. She probably thought that as long as Kamijou was happy, she would be happy. Alas, this turns out to be false.
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:31   Link #339
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So Madoka might very well become an MG with her soul still in her body, but just technically be more vulnerable. Still, she'd get away with it because she has so much magic power.
Now that's a very interesting thought.


Kyubey: Your friends are in serious danger yet again. Are you yet again going to just stand there and do nothing when you could contract with me, become a magical girl, and help them? And Homura is in danger herself, so she's not going to be able to pull your bacon out of the fire this time.

Madoka: ...Look, I'll agree to be a magical girl, but with one specific condition.

Kyubey: What would that be?

Madoka: My soul stays in my body, capiche?

Kyubey: *sigh*... I don't like it, but I suppose that's better than not having you as a magical girl at all. Very well.


Then Madoka becomes a magical girl, but because her soul is still in her body, she's free from the soul gem/grief seed system.
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:41   Link #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I imagine that Kyoko's father could tell when his followers were mindless zombies. He must have asked Kyoko about it. Logically, either Kyubey or Kyoko must have told her father about the wish, because we know that only Kyubey and his contractor know about the contract.

Or someone else knew about the contract, and tipped off Kyoko's father... but that's going into the speculator's realm.
My own personal theory is that he could see that something was off, and spoke up one time wondering why so many people felt compelled. Kyoko, in a moment of pride thinking her father would be grateful, told him about how she made a wish for people to come listen and that she was also fighting evil witches to protect humanity. Her father, realizing that his accomplishments weren't his at all, went made.

Otherwise, I can't see how he would have found out. They could end not explaining and leave it as a partial plot hole, so the only way to fill it is to realize that Kyoko caused her own downfall. as she said, she didn't understand the feelings of others, which would be in line with her telling her dad and expecting him to be thankful and proud.

Quote:
Perhaps, but Mami didn't sound or look very enthusiastic when she said that. The only time Mami looked really happy was when she was with Madoka. It just leads me to believe that all Mami ever wanted were friends... and that her cool exterior hides her soft interior. I think there's a case to be made that Mami had regrets about her decision.
Maybe, but that would be speculation territory. I can only go by what we have been told. I think her real regret was being lonely, so that was why she latched onto Madoka and Sayaka.

Quote:
This is a good point... if Sayaka were truly selfish, then she would have wished for Kamijou to be her man-slave. I don't think that self-interest was the only reason Sayaka wished for Kamijou. (Although it may have sounded like that, I admit.)

Because she loves Kamijou, Sayaka is willing to surrender a wish: this goes beyond altruism alone. If she was completely altruistic, she would have wished for all the world's problems to go away! But her feelings cause Sayaka to focus on Kamijou alone...

I mean that Sayaka could not foresee what a supposedly innocent miracle would have brought upon herself... in wishing for Kamijou's happiness, she inherently made her own life miserable. I don't think Sayaka knew that her little miracle was going to be this emotionally painful. She probably thought that as long as Kamijou was happy, she would be happy. Alas, this turns out to be false.
As I quoted before: "No greater love hath a man that this, that he lay down his life for his friend." Which is pretty much what she has done, and realizes that.

I find her reaction to be very human, because I bet all of us have cried or gotten upset at one point, where we thought we were doing a lot for some girl or guy, and then realized we couldn't be with them (perhaps they picked someone else). So we're all guilty of it, and thus condemning Sayaka for her actions comes across as hypocritical.

Sure, she has dark thoughts, but she really hasn't acted mean; well, until those last few seconds, taking her frustrations out on a witch. I'm sure we've all beat up a punching bag or a wall to relieve stress. We all have dark thoughts, but it's only when we act on them, that it becomes wrong.

And fortunately, Sayaka seems to be aware of them, and thus less likely to act on them. She won't harm Hitomi, and if Kamijou goes with Hitomi, she'll let him go, even though she'll be depressed and sad. And probably more reckless when engaging witches.

My only worry is whether the writing is being convenient just to torture Sayaka and drive her into an abyss, when she has been trying to do the right thing all along.
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