AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Madoka Magica

Notices

View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-02-21, 12:58   Link #541
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 28
Heh. I would think that I'd earn ire faster than MeoTwister5 for not being even very down-to-earth regarding wording of matters, and being even less inclined to state my own bias, and to even go so far as to care more about obscure literary references than what aesop can be derived here.

Let's return to the context of episode 7. I am most interested personally in changes to Madoka's perception of right and wrong here.
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 12:59   Link #542
Arkeus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I could be wrong, but I remember Kyubey being very straightforward with his explanations.
pretty sure you don't mean straightforward, so i'll answer to what i think you mean:

Kyuubey usually had mami explain things for him, and when he actually talked he always seemed to not answer the question. I'll have to watch again, but the only real information he might have given would be about witches being made from curses, and iirc that wasn't exactly what was asked of him.
Arkeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 13:28   Link #543
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Kyuubey usually had mami explain things for him, and when he actually talked he always seemed to not answer the question.
Indeed, my point is less about Kyubey being deceptive and more about Kyubey not saying anything at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
I'll have to watch again, but the only real information he might have given would be about witches being made from curses, and iirc that wasn't exactly what was asked of him.
As you noted, Kyubey probably thought that Mami answered the question sufficiently. He merely added on with some food for thought.

In relation to episode 7, Sayaka seems to have activated some Puella Magi ability that makes her immune to pain. "You're right! If I do it this way... It doesn't hurt at all!" (Episode 7)

Is this another Puella Magi secret that Kyubey has been hiding? In exchange for feeling no pain, does the Puella Magi go crazy?
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 13:37   Link #544
fukarming
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post

In relation to episode 7, Sayaka seems to have activated some Puella Magi ability that makes her immune to pain. "You're right! If I do it this way... It doesn't hurt at all!" (Episode 7)

Is this another Puella Magi secret that Kyubey has been hiding? In exchange for feeling no pain, does the Puella Magi go crazy?
Actually, Kyube warned Sayaka specifically about that.

Kyube: Separating soul gem from body reduce pain for a certain degree. If you go the extra mile, you won't feel pain at all but it will "slow you down"/ "dumb your senses" so I do not recommend.

Sure, Kyube did not say what exactly will happen, but he clearly say he did not recommend what Sayaka is doing right now.
__________________
They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
fukarming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 13:39   Link #545
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
In relation to episode 7, Sayaka seems to have activated some Puella Magi ability that makes her immune to pain. "You're right! If I do it this way... It doesn't hurt at all!" (Episode 7)

Is this another Puella Magi secret that Kyubey has been hiding? In exchange for feeling no pain, does the Puella Magi go crazy?
Actually, Kyube did say that earlier. From yesy subs:

Kyube: "The only reason you were able to remain standing during your fight with Kyoko was that anything too painful was limited. It is only possible because your consciousness isn't directly linked with your body. You survived your fight because of it. If you got used to it, you could learn to completely cut off pain. But since your reaction times would slow, I don't recommend it."

So at the end there, Sayaka was pushing the limit. She was feeling no pain, and crazily laughing because it made things easier. But as Kyube said, doing so would slow her reaction times, which was probably why she was having a difficult time with the witch.

Edit: beaten by fukarming, heh.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 14:01   Link #546
fukarming
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Something for everyone to think about in ep 7 about Sayaka's Berserker ability:

Kyube warned Sayaka about "slowing reaction time"/"numb your senses"/"slow you down", so if Sayaka is killed in battle suffering from the above, that is not the fault of Kyube, as for a change, Kyube did speak out, right?

What if, instead of Sayaka being killed by the enemy, she self destructed? It is a fairly common trope, as the character love his/ her ability so much that he/ she abuse it to the degree that her body can no longer sustain the powerup. (Younger Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho comes to mind). Do you blame Kyube for not telling Sayaka about that?
__________________
They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
fukarming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 14:06   Link #547
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Actually, Kyube warned Sayaka specifically about that.

Kyube: Separating soul gem from body reduce pain for a certain degree. If you go the extra mile, you won't feel pain at all but it will "slow you down"/ "dumb your senses" so I do not recommend.

Sure, Kyube did not say what exactly will happen, but he clearly say he did not recommend what Sayaka is doing right now.
Yes, I remember that scene...

I do not think Kyubey stated the full consequences. He did say that it would slow Sayaka down, but he did not say that Sayaka would go crazy. Kyubey probably thought that it was unimportant for Sayaka to know that she would go crazy.

Of course, Sayaka could just be crazy; her madness is not a side effect.

What disturbs me is how something new about Puella Magi is revealed every episode. There are so many implications to the contract left unspoken, and Kyubey is the one to reveal them all.
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 14:13   Link #548
fukarming
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Yes, I remember that scene...

I do not think Kyubey stated the full consequences. He did say that it would slow Sayaka down, but he did not say that Sayaka would go crazy. Kyubey probably thought that it was unimportant for Sayaka to know that she would go crazy.

Of course, Sayaka could just be crazy; her madness is not a side effect.

What disturbs me is how something new about Puella Magi is revealed every episode. There are so many implications to the contract left unspoken, and Kyubey is the one to reveal them all.
I don't think Sayaka's madness is part of the side effect. She goes crazy because of the whole Kamijo situation. At least that is my take from it.

I kinda anticipate response like yours. So I am very interested to know your answer on my above post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Something for everyone to think about in ep 7 about Sayaka's Berserker ability:

Kyube warned Sayaka about "slowing reaction time"/"numb your senses"/"slow you down", so if Sayaka is killed in battle suffering from the above, that is not the fault of Kyube, as for a change, Kyube did speak out, right?

What if, instead of Sayaka being killed by the enemy, she self destructed? It is a fairly common trope, as the character love his/ her ability so much that he/ she abuse it to the degree that her body can no longer sustain the powerup. (Younger Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho comes to mind). Do you blame Kyube for not telling Sayaka about that?
__________________
They came first for sharks fin,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sharks fin.
Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
Then they came for Toro (bluefin tuna) sushi,I didn't speak up because I don't eat sushi.
Then they came for me and force me to be a vegan by that time no one was left to speak up.
fukarming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 14:20   Link #549
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Something for everyone to think about in ep 7 about Sayaka's Berserker ability:

Kyube warned Sayaka about "slowing reaction time"/"numb your senses"/"slow you down", so if Sayaka is killed in battle suffering from the above, that is not the fault of Kyube, as for a change, Kyube did speak out, right?

What if, instead of Sayaka being killed by the enemy, she self destructed? It is a fairly common trope, as the character love his/ her ability so much that he/ she abuse it to the degree that her body can no longer sustain the powerup. (Younger Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho comes to mind). Do you blame Kyube for not telling Sayaka about that?
This all relies on the magical girl's stability. Sayaka was at the point where she just doesn't care for anything anymore and all she wants to do is bash at witches, so that instability lead to her accepting the pain she suffers against witches which will probably lead to her demise eventually. But I think Madoka will come in and save Sayaka since she did say in quiet voice to stop after witnessing this.

It all goes to Madoka now to save Sayaka before she accidentally kills herself from suffering too much damage that she takes purposely from witches. But I don't think Kyubey is at fault in this situation, he only wanted what can help the girls the most when they fight against witches. It all relied on the person's choice if they wanted to abuse this power or not, and Sayaka is not thinking clearly due to her thoughts going wild so she just abuses it.

You would not feel much pain of course that much is true. But you would also understand that taking a beating is the same thing as a bomb slowly ticking down inside you. The person may not feel the pain, but the body obviously does and it will eventually reach a point where it will not just work anymore.
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy

Last edited by Hooves; 2011-02-21 at 14:31.
Hooves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 14:43   Link #550
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
I think people are talking too much about the morality of the issues present rather than the facts, or things pretty much set in stone.

The following should all be agreed as truths about this series right now.
  • Kyube doesn't share a human's sense of what is wrong or right (Not commenting if he is evil or not).
  • Kyube's stated agenda is simply to contract magical girls to fight witches. He may or may not have a larger agenda.
  • So far each girl in the series has met unhappiness with the contract. Mami didn't have a choice and was lonely and scared. Kyoko got her family destroyed. Homura is unhappy in general (More specific reasons to be revealed). And now Sayaka is getting broken down as she realizes how flimsy her wish and motivations were for becoming a magical girl.
  • Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish did NOT work as INTENDED. Monkey paw or not (It really isn't by technical decision), the wishes didn't exactly give them what they expected.
  • Kyube has witheld much information to the detrimant of the magical girls (Soul gems containing their souls, bodies now basically puppets). Practical or not, this is information that they would have liked to have known beforehand.
  • Homura has an agenda primarily focused with Madoka. She tried to kill Kyube before Madoka made contact and failed. She tried to divulge as little information as possible to keep Madoka uninvolved, and failed.
  • Witches are harming people. We don't know their origin and we don't know their purpose. It is clear that this is not a threat that can be left alone. However, due to lack of information, it is not clear whatsoever on what is the best solution available to deal with them.

Almost anything else that is not here is merely pure speculation.
Reckoner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 14:48   Link #551
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Regarding Sayaka going "crazy"... the best way to interpret that scene, is to understand what she has just gone through, because it's a metaphor. She has learned to shut out the limited physical pain and it feels great. She has been feeling internal pain as well, from the Kamijou/Hitomi situation, so she's using the ability in the witch fight as a way to shut out that pain.

If one ignores the pain and thus not feel it, then it's not truly bad, right?

That's what I finally realized the scene meant. I still don't entirely agree with it, but I can see where they wanted to show that she's trying to shut out all pain, both physical and mental, as a way to not have to deal with it. Obviously, that's a bad way to deal with it, and so it comes down to Madoka, and whether she'll actually do anything and be effective at making Sayaka realize that you can't hide from pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
The person may not feel the pain, but the body obviously does and it will eventually reach a point where it will not just work anymore.
Just wanted to comment on this, because while normally true, in this universe magic can repair any bodily damage. In the real world, pain is a teacher, and a way to understand when our body is hurt, so we can take steps against that. Pain keeps us alive. If we read up on some people who have no pain receptors, we can see how incredibly careful they have to be.

Pain is essentially feeling, so what Kyube does is numb the feeling from pain. Not entirely, just enough that they can keep on fighting. If you numb yourself totally, then you lose the ability to feel, and thus can't respond as well to changing fight circumstances. I think this is what Kyube meant when he said reaction times would slow, and thus not be recommended.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:01   Link #552
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
I was wondering when you would join in Reckoner

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Regarding Sayaka going "crazy"... the best way to interpret that scene, is to understand what she has just gone through, because it's a metaphor. She has learned to shut out the limited physical pain and it feels great. She has been feeling internal pain as well, from the Kamijou/Hitomi situation, so she's using the ability in the witch fight as a way to shut out that pain.
That's what I meant when Sayaka was at the point where all she wanted to do was bash at witches as an excuse to all the pain she has been enduring emotionally.

Quote:
If one ignores the pain and thus not feel it, then it's not truly bad, right?

That's what I finally realized the scene meant. I still don't entirely agree with it, but I can see where they wanted to show that she's trying to shut out all pain, both physical and mental, as a way to not have to deal with it. Obviously, that's a bad way to deal with it, and so it comes down to Madoka, and whether she'll actually do anything and be effective at making Sayaka realize that you can't hide from pain.
Correct, this is gonna be Sayaka's relieving moment where Madoka has to save Sayaka now just like she did with Mami.. But we just have to hope that things don't end up like how Mami went down.

Quote:
Just wanted to comment on this, because while normally true, in this universe magic can repair any bodily damage. In the real world, pain is a teacher, and a sway to understand when our body is hurt, so we can take steps against that. Pain keeps us alive. If we read up on some people who have no pain receptors, we can see how incredibly careful they have to be.
True, since Kyubey doesn't understand the human emotion all that well, he will not understand that people will have to feel pain in order to avoid it when required. But since he took this life lesson out from all the magical girls, there is a possible risk that they will eventually abuse this and end up killing themselves.

Quote:
Pain is essentially feeling, so what Kyube does is numb the feeling from pain. Not entirely, just enough that they can keep on fighting. If you numb yourself totally, then you lose the ability to feel, and thus can't respond as well to changing fight circumstances. I think this is what Kyube meant when he said reaction times would slow, and thus not be recommended.
So what you mean is that numbing the feeling of pain will not change anything in the magical girls' performance while fighting witches?
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy
Hooves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:01   Link #553
Vanish
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Vanish
Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Something for everyone to think about in ep 7 about Sayaka's Berserker ability:

[...]

What if, instead of Sayaka being killed by the enemy, she self destructed? It is a fairly common trope, as the character love his/ her ability so much that he/ she abuse it to the degree that her body can no longer sustain the powerup. (Younger Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho comes to mind). Do you blame Kyube for not telling Sayaka about that?
Well, first of all it's not exactly an ability let alone berserker ability. It just is. Feel pain or overwrite it. More like a general attribute in game's terms that applies to all MGs.

Let's assume she self destructed as you propose. Well... that's her own fault then, really. I just reminded myself that this is pretty much the personal responsibility the KLDT (Kyubei's Legal Defense Team, how that sound?Lol) keeps mentioning. If there was really such a thing as too much power in this case Kyubei should not get the blame. Even if you can self destruct and Kyubei did (not) explicitly state it, how are you supposed to know your own limits when you're already near numb/slowed down/whatever? Besides, using power as a MG means using magic. And we all know it's not good to overuse it anyway. Actually, it can be put into connection that it was stated before that using magic will at the very least darken your SG, which is why it is recommended to hunt for Grief Seeds, whether it's optional or not.

Last edited by Vanish; 2011-02-21 at 15:19.
Vanish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:14   Link #554
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
So what you mean is that numbing the feeling of pain will not change anything in the magical girls' performance while fighting witches?
Numbing the pain will enable them to better kill witches. I get the feeling Kyube has been at this MG business awhile, and so has coldly logically calculated the best outcome to MG's killing witches. Per his words, he holds some information because it decreases fighting efficiency and leads to destabilization issues. He separates the soul and body so the pain can be numbed and the damage dealt with, so MG's can better stand up to witches. But he doesn't adjust them too far, because that would decrease reaction times.

In short, he's churning out the most efficient witch-killers he can. Regardless of what the girls may think.

And regardless of what other motives Kyube might have, it is clear that he wants efficient witch-killers that can last as long as possible, to kill witches for as long as possible. It's within his power to make them weaker, but he tweaks them as strong as he can.

So yeah, numbing their pain makes them better witch-killers.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:26   Link #555
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think people are talking too much about the morality of the issues present rather than the facts, or things pretty much set in stone.

The following should all be agreed as truths about this series right now.
  • Kyube doesn't share a human's sense of what is wrong or right (Not commenting if he is evil or not).
  • Kyube's stated agenda is simply to contract magical girls to fight witches. He may or may not have a larger agenda.
  • So far each girl in the series has met unhappiness with the contract. Mami didn't have a choice and was lonely and scared. Kyoko got her family destroyed. Homura is unhappy in general (More specific reasons to be revealed). And now Sayaka is getting broken down as she realizes how flimsy her wish and motivations were for becoming a magical girl.
  • Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish did NOT work as INTENDED. Monkey paw or not (It really isn't by technical decision), the wishes didn't exactly give them what they expected.
  • Kyube has witheld much information to the detrimant of the magical girls (Soul gems containing their souls, bodies now basically puppets). Practical or not, this is information that they would have liked to have known beforehand.
  • Homura has an agenda primarily focused with Madoka. She tried to kill Kyube before Madoka made contact and failed. She tried to divulge as little information as possible to keep Madoka uninvolved, and failed.
  • Witches are harming people. We don't know their origin and we don't know their purpose. It is clear that this is not a threat that can be left alone. However, due to lack of information, it is not clear whatsoever on what is the best solution available to deal with them.

Almost anything else that is not here is merely pure speculation.
Very good post. With two slight exceptions/caveats, I agree with everything you wrote here. Those exceptions/caveats are...

1. [*]Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish did NOT work as INTENDED. Monkey paw or not (It really isn't by technical decision), the wishes didn't exactly give them what they expected.

Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish both DID work, and did NOT work, as intended.

Sayaka intended for Kamijo to be healed, which she thought would be akin to the first domino falling in her eventual blissful romance with Kamijo. And, exactly as intended, Kamijo was healed. However, the second domino didn't buckle under the pressure of that first domino falling, and so Sayaka isn't getting everything she hoped for here, but she is getting everything she asked for here.

Kyoko intended for her father to become a very popular preacher and religious leader, which she thought would be akin to the first domino falling in her and her beloved father being the heroes of the world! And, exactly as intended, her father became a very popular preacher and religious leader. However, the second domino didn't fall because it was interrupted by her father snapping. So Kyoko didn't get everything she hoped for here, but she did get everything she asked for here.


2.[*]Homura has an agenda primarily focused with Madoka. She tried to kill Kyube before Madoka made contact and failed. She tried to divulge as little information as possible to keep Madoka uninvolved, and failed. (emphasis mine)

I know that this is a pet theory for you, but it's not really established fact. Still, this is a very minor quibble. You might very well be right about Homura here, I'm just not 100% convinced of it.


Now, long story short, I think that what Reckoner laid out here is enough for people to say "Kyubey might end up being evil" but isn't really enough to say "Kyubey is evil".
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:28   Link #556
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
That's what I finally realized the scene meant. I still don't entirely agree with it, but I can see where they wanted to show that she's trying to shut out all pain, both physical and mental, as a way to not have to deal with it. Obviously, that's a bad way to deal with it, and so it comes down to Madoka, and whether she'll actually do anything and be effective at making Sayaka realize that you can't hide from pain.
.
I apologize if I am reading too much into your comments (Not just this one, but in general), but it almost seems like you expect Madoka to be able to solve her problems. Why should she?

This series has presented Madoka as a pretty normal young, and innocent girl. She may have a lot of potential in magic, as Kyube keeps saying, but she is anything but a hero. We shouldn't just simply expect for her to take up a heroic role and suddenly start acting like a magical lyrical therapist girl .

She has done pretty much everything she can that a normal person ought to be able to do. She's offered her friend support, and even gone in danger's way to be there with her. She also tried to make her feel more human by hearing out her struggles and giving her friend a hug to acknowledge that she's still there. There's not much else she can do to support her friend really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Very good post. With two slight exceptions/caveats, I agree with everything you wrote here. Those exceptions/caveats are...

1. [*]Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish did NOT work as INTENDED. Monkey paw or not (It really isn't by technical decision), the wishes didn't exactly give them what they expected.

Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish both DID work, and did NOT work, as intended.

Sayaka intended for Kamijo to be healed, which she thought would be akin to the first domino falling in her eventual blissful romance with Kamijo. And, exactly as intended, Kamijo was healed. However, the second domino didn't buckle under the pressure of that first domino falling, and so Sayaka isn't getting everything she hoped for here, but she is getting everything she asked for here.

Kyoko intended for her father to become a very popular preacher and religious leader, which she thought would be akin to the first domino falling in her and her beloved father being the heroes of the world! And, exactly as intended, her father became a very popular preacher and religious leader. However, the second domino didn't fall because it was interrupted by her father snapping. So Kyoko didn't get everything she hoped for here, but she did get everything she asked for here.


2.[*]Homura has an agenda primarily focused with Madoka. She tried to kill Kyube before Madoka made contact and failed. She tried to divulge as little information as possible to keep Madoka uninvolved, and failed. (emphasis mine)

I know that this is a pet theory for you, but it's not really established fact. Still, this is a very minor quibble. You might very well be right about Homura here, I'm just not 100% convinced of it.
Oh well on the 1st point, that is pretty much what I meant. They carried expectations with their wishes that didn't end up being met. The wishes were fulfilled, but what they expected to gain from these wishes was not.

As for your second point, well perhaps I can't see it in any other way right now myself, but I'm willing to concede that as something not 100%. So yeah, other than that I think we're good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
I was wondering when you would join in Reckoner :heh
Hah well I've been around. I posted a bit in this thread already, just it gets drowned out quite quickly with the high volume of posts.
Reckoner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:33   Link #557
Vanish
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Age: 22
Send a message via Skype™ to Vanish
For future reference we should just insult Kyubei instead of call him evil in case others might just argue people's baseless "he is (not) evil because xxx" (unless later episodes reveal more usable information regarding said matter). Now I'm not dead serious about this but hey, at least we all agree Kyubei is a hateful dick or something similar.
Vanish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:42   Link #558
totoum
Oppai warrior
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish both DID work, and did NOT work, as intended.
While I do think you make valid points,I feel that Reckoner adressed this by saying that it wasn't technicaly monkey's paw.
Since it's not monkey's paw "the first domino falls" but the intention for the girls is still to have the last domino fall and that didn't happen.
__________________
totoum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 15:58   Link #559
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I apologize if I am reading too much into your comments (Not just this one, but in general), but it almost seems like you expect Madoka to be able to solve her problems. Why should she?

This series has presented Madoka as a pretty normal young, and innocent girl. She may have a lot of potential in magic, as Kyube keeps saying, but she is anything but a hero. We shouldn't just simply expect for her to take up a heroic role and suddenly start acting like a magical lyrical therapist girl .

She has done pretty much everything she can that a normal person ought to be able to do. She's offered her friend support, and even gone in danger's way to be there with her. She also tried to make her feel more human by hearing out her struggles and giving her friend a hug to acknowledge that she's still there. There's not much else she can do to support her friend really.
You bring up a fair point, so let me try to explain where I'm coming from, because it consists of multiple parts.

Part of the issue is that this series is named after Madoka, and it is the main hero who is expected to handle things. So far, Madoka has sat from the sidelines, perhaps doing a bit of supporting, but otherwise not affecting much. She seems incredibly idealistic, so much so that she puts Sayaka's life in danger (removing her only way to defend herself). So part of it is that Madoka is trying to work on just idealism, without actually making the hard choices, and she has a certain responsibility as the series main heroine (supposedly; could be a Gen mindfuck, though).

If Madoka had contracted prior to Mami's death, Mami would probably still be alive. Sayaka kinda notes something along this line in her hillside chat to Madoka.

Sayaka: "I could have lost my two best friends, you and Hitomi."
*snip some conversation*
Madoka: "So you don't regret it at all?"
Sayaka: "I guess if there is anything I regret.. It's waiting so long. After all, if I had made up my mind quicker, I could have fought that witch alongside Mami and maybe she wouldn't have died."
(Madoka has a bit of an interesting flashback here)

So a part of it is Sayaka having contracted and saved Madoka's life. Friends count on each other to help them when things are down. Sayaka has done that for Madoka, and thus it's Madoka's turn to do that for Sayaka. Sayaka took on a heavy burden so Madoka wouldn't have to. Once more, Madoka waffled while Sayaka made the hard choice.

Another part is that people have argued that Madoka's idealism is supposed to be what saves the day. If this means anything, then her idealism has to actually be shown to be effective in helping people. So far, it hasn't. We can hardly say, "Great job, Madoka! You saved the day with your idealism! Of course, Mami, Sayaka, Kyoko, and Homura had to die first, but better late than never, eh?"

If Madoka is gonna be a good friend and earn her place in this series, she needs to really earn it. Sayaka is essentially counting on Madoka to be an anchor, and Madoka can't earn her place if she has to step over Sayaka's crazed and/or dead body to it.

So if I could sum it up, it's "Hey, girl, your friend is having a tough time; what are you doing to do about it? You already had one friend die; how many more will it take for you to get your act together? Everyone else is saving your ass and letting you avoid the hard decisions. Isn't about time you did something in return?"

To be fair, I think this series is trying to teach Madoka that. In most superhero shows where the main hero is hesitant or afraid, it's a point of growth where they realize they to bite the bullet and step up, because it depends on them. Sorta like Shinji in Evangelion, another whiner who didn't want to really get involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
[*]Sayaka's wish and Kyoko's wish did NOT work as INTENDED. Monkey paw or not (It really isn't by technical decision), the wishes didn't exactly give them what they expected.
I do want to address this one point of yours, because "intention" requires knowing their thoughts, which would be speculation.

Factually, speaking, both Sayaka and Kyoko got what they wanted. Anything beyond that is speculation. It's almost as if the expectation is that, in order for the wish to be considered valid, then everything has to suddenly go right in their lives. I think that's unrealistic, because regardless of wish, good and bad things will still happen. You can't blame any of the bad stuff on the wish unless there is a clear direct connection, which there isn't.

You can argue Kyoko's wish was bad, and you'd have a point. Even Kyoko acknowledged this. But things went bad for her when she told her dad all about it. Her actions led to it, not the wish itself.

Sayaka's issues stem from her own personal issues. I think it is quite ludicrous to believe she expected Kamijou to fall in love with her. Perhaps she just wanted to wish him better, so he would feel better and could play the violin. At best, she was aware of her own personal conflict regarding the matter, and felt guilty enough to know she'd be a bad person if she expected to benefit. So her thoughts could have been, "I'll just wish for his hand to be healed. If I'm able to have a relationship with him later, then great. But if not, then at least he's healed and I use my wish in a selfish manner."
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 16:07   Link #560
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 26
Hehe, zombie Sayaka. That's actually a good fighting style for her though, since she can heal faster than the others.

Oh yeah, since you apparently get a special ability based on what wish you made...what's Kyoko's?

I'm convinced now that those miracles and the magic are rather cheap. For now all we've seen is hypnosis of a group of people, and healing one person. I'm guessing you can't even resurrect a dead person, because if Kyubey could resurrect Mami, he could easily wring Madoka in.

I hope when Madoka gets serious that'll be the end of the small-time magic and we will see some glory. These current magical girls are just lame.
__________________
Jaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.