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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 58 41.13%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.33%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.31%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.38%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.13%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-08-06, 23:25   Link #721
Dr. Casey
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I have mixed feelings on Sayaka's response to the Soul Gem reveal. It's a bit hard to relate to her feelings, and I can certainly see why some (Most?) people think she was overreacting. But... I don't know. If you had clear confirmation that souls do indeed exist, you'd presume that they were an important thing, right? And if your soul was sucked out of you, shouldn't your first reaction be that this marks you as different from most other human beings?

I think something that might help Sayaka's feelings be more relatable is that, at first, most of us essentially felt the same as she did. When I first watched episode 6, my initial response was something like "Holy shit, Sayaka has no soul?!" I did find the initial revelation weird and creepy, and at the time it made me view the Puella Magi as being different from other human beings. Over the course of the next episode I quickly realized that not having a soul actually doesn't make much of a difference, and given enough time Sayaka might have come to the same conclusion herself. She might have come to understand that there weren't any changes to her emotions, to her thinking patterns, to anything whatsoever concerning her heart and mind. Those initial feelings of disgust that some of us also shared just lingered with her longer and were harder to wash away because, obviously, she's the one dealing with the problem (And she didn't have much time at all to come to terms with the situation, dying rather shortly after the end of episode six).

Another thing to consider is that we don't see the scene where Sayaka learns the true story about the Soul Gems. Waking up to Kyubey going "Hi, I ripped out your soul" is pretty creepy on its own, but Madoka and Kyoko might have made things worse. Kyoko might have still been raging about how they were 'soulless zombies', Madoka might have been sobbing and grieving over Sayaka's fate... their kneejerk initial reactions might have imprinted the situation in Sayaka's mind as something worse than it would have seemed otherwise (Not that she wouldn't have been shaken up regardless, but the reactions of the others might have made things several shades darker).

Maybe the Light Novels will delve deeper into Sayaka's psychology, though, and explain in more detail the specifics of what bothers her. I have to say that I'm really enjoying your reviews, though, Kaioshin. They're a real pleasure to read. Keep it up.
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Old 2016-01-09, 21:43   Link #722
Asehpe
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One area where I differed with Sayaka was her overall reaction to the soul gem reveal (in general, I felt that that anime as a whole overplayed it a bit). I can certainly see where it would be... discomforting, but I myself never really saw why it would mean that she couldn't be with Kamijo romantically.
Perhaps Japanese culture influences people's perceptions of how bad this would be, or so I am told (I am not a specialist). From what I understand, the Western notion of a body-soul duality makes it easier to see the two parts as relatively independent: your body is just the clothes that your soul wears, and having your soul wear a different set of clothes (soul gem), while maybe somewhat 'disconcerting', is not such a terrible deal.

Now (and those who know Japanese culture better, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong), my understanding is that the soul in Shintō culture is much more directly connected to the body; not a dual essence that is conceptually independent form the body itself, but as a living part of said body (see Kyubey's claim that 'your souls are in your bodies, in your bloodstream, in your bones...' etc.). In a sense, removing Sayaka's soul and placing it in a soul gem would then be not unlike performing an operation to remove one of her internal organs, preferably a very important, meaning-laden one (e.g., her heart), place it in an external container and then have her carry it around. I think even Westerners would be very disturbed at the thought of a person who carries his/her heart in a jar hanging from his/her neck? I feel there would be something very creepy, perhaps even way beyond creepy, in such a situation.
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Old 2016-01-10, 23:47   Link #723
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That's an interesting point, and a very good analogy with "the heart in the jar".

It never occurred to me before that the Soul Gem reveal might carry greater punch in a Japanese/Asian cultural context, but yeah, I now can see why it would.

So that's good to know. Good post, Asehpe.
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Old 2016-01-11, 00:31   Link #724
Asehpe
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Thank you, Triple-R!

It's a pity that most people are no longer discussing their impressions on Madoka Magica. I saw several interesting discussions at the beginning and in the middle of this thread that I wished I had been able to take part in. Alas, I didn't see the animē when it was originally broadcast, but only a couple of weeks ago!...
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Old 2016-01-11, 04:31   Link #725
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Thank you, Triple-R!

It's a pity that most people are no longer discussing their impressions on Madoka Magica. I saw several interesting discussions at the beginning and in the middle of this thread that I wished I had been able to take part in. Alas, I didn't see the animē when it was originally broadcast, but only a couple of weeks ago!...
Stick around, discussion will promptly resume as soon as we learn more about the upcoming sequel.
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Old 2016-01-11, 17:04   Link #726
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Good to know! I definitely will.

Is there going to be a sequel? I didn't know that. Is there information on it somewhere?
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Old 2016-01-11, 17:18   Link #727
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^ Well for starters, if you haven't already, you should watch the Rebellion movie, which continues the story after the end of the anime.

If you already have, you can read about the upcoming sequel here:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ew-work/.95830
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...n-osaka/.96858

There's also a subbed off-screen video of the concept movie around, though the link can't be posted here.
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Old 2016-01-11, 23:35   Link #728
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^ Well for starters, if you haven't already, you should watch the Rebellion movie, which continues the story after the end of the anime.
I have already seen the Rebellion movie. At first I hated it, then I thought a little more, read and watched a few comments, and my opinion evolved... now I actually quite like it, though I agree it does deviate from the (rather closed. self-contained) story in the Madoka Magica series.

VERY happy to see that they're working on a new movie. Thanks for the links, and I will be looking forward to it (though it would seem that at least a couple of years will go by before we can see it...).
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Old 2016-01-12, 04:51   Link #729
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We still don't know whether it's a new movie or a new season, but yes, it is likely still far away, considering they just completed the concept movie, which is something that's made before production, albeit usually in the form of an image or two.
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Old 2016-01-12, 21:03   Link #730
Asehpe
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I must admit, though, that Madoka Magica (the series) feels like such a closed, densely plotted little animē that I even fear continuations / second seasons might actually make it less good. 'Rebellion' (on which I have a couple of strong opinions) was not bad, actually it can even be claimed to be very good, but it is in a very true sense a completely new thing -- we're no longer in the cycle of Madoka and her solution to the problem of the Magical Girl system, we're now in the world of Homura and her obsession with Madoka.


Of course, 'Rebellion' feels like it needs a continuation; now that they did it, they can't stop there. Still it feels that the 'true end' of Madoka Magica is still Madoka's ascension to godhood. Don't you have the impression that continuing the story after that is, to a certain extent, disrespectful -- even if the final product ends up being also amazing?

How do you feel about that? Is the series 'so good' that continuing it, even though it gives us the chance to spend more time with all those wonderful characters, may eventually be detrimental, in that it 'corrupts' the awesome completeness that the original series had? It's as if it were tainting its soul gem...
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Old 2016-01-13, 01:02   Link #731
Vegard Aune
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I must admit, though, that Madoka Magica (the series) feels like such a closed, densely plotted little animē that I even fear continuations / second seasons might actually make it less good. 'Rebellion' (on which I have a couple of strong opinions) was not bad, actually it can even be claimed to be very good, but it is in a very true sense a completely new thing -- we're no longer in the cycle of Madoka and her solution to the problem of the Magical Girl system, we're now in the world of Homura and her obsession with Madoka.


Of course, 'Rebellion' feels like it needs a continuation; now that they did it, they can't stop there. Still it feels that the 'true end' of Madoka Magica is still Madoka's ascension to godhood. Don't you have the impression that continuing the story after that is, to a certain extent, disrespectful -- even if the final product ends up being also amazing?

How do you feel about that? Is the series 'so good' that continuing it, even though it gives us the chance to spend more time with all those wonderful characters, may eventually be detrimental, in that it 'corrupts' the awesome completeness that the original series had? It's as if it were tainting its soul gem...
Are... Are you me? No seriously, that is almost exactly how I feel about it too. Hated the idea of a sequel, still saw Rebellion, initially hated it, eventually warmed up to it though I always thought it was absolutely terrible as an ending (not just for what happens in it, but also for how it presents itself; Literally every single scene is directed in such a way that it feels like setup for more conflict later, and at the end it feels like the movie just stops), and have been clamoring for some sort of sequel to it just because as it stands I feel the story is incomplete.

Personally though, I've already accepted that whatever comes next almost certainly will not be as good as the show. Nor do I think an ending as satisfying as the TV-series one can really be done again at this point. Not even if they were to end the hypothetical sequel with the TV-series ending fully restored exactly the way it was, because that would just make both sequels feel utterly pointless.
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Old 2016-01-13, 03:12   Link #732
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Originally Posted by Asehpe View Post
I must admit, though, that Madoka Magica (the series) feels like such a closed, densely plotted little animē that I even fear continuations / second seasons might actually make it less good. 'Rebellion' (on which I have a couple of strong opinions) was not bad, actually it can even be claimed to be very good, but it is in a very true sense a completely new thing -- we're no longer in the cycle of Madoka and her solution to the problem of the Magical Girl system, we're now in the world of Homura and her obsession with Madoka.


Of course, 'Rebellion' feels like it needs a continuation; now that they did it, they can't stop there. Still it feels that the 'true end' of Madoka Magica is still Madoka's ascension to godhood. Don't you have the impression that continuing the story after that is, to a certain extent, disrespectful -- even if the final product ends up being also amazing?

How do you feel about that? Is the series 'so good' that continuing it, even though it gives us the chance to spend more time with all those wonderful characters, may eventually be detrimental, in that it 'corrupts' the awesome completeness that the original series had? It's as if it were tainting its soul gem...
As much as I keep hearing this argument from different people, it never resonates with me.

There is no such thing as a show being 'corrupted' by receiving a sequel, that show is done, it will not change retroactively, no matter what comes after it.
The bad sequels to The Matrix didn't make the first any less of a good movie, the soulless newer seasons of The Simpsons didn't make the old ones any less great, the Star Wars prequels didn't alter the original trilogy, etc...
Even if each future Madoka project turns out to be utter garbage, 10 years from now you'll still be able to watch the original anime and it will be just as amazing as the first time you saw it; but since the most likely scenario is that we are getting a very high quality anime, that is something worth celebrating, no "if"s or "but"s.
(unless you own the franchise and fear that it might lose value/popularity, but that's clearly not the case most of the time )


Basically, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain when a new piece entertainment becomes available: if it's good you get to enjoy it as much as you want, if it's bad you can drop it halfway through and never watch it again, but if it doesn't exist you don't have the option to choose, and that's never preferable.

Last edited by ilcane87; 2016-01-13 at 04:20.
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Old 2016-01-13, 20:07   Link #733
Asehpe
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There is no such thing as a show being 'corrupted' by receiving a sequel, that show is done, it will not change retroactively, no matter what comes after it.
The bad sequels to The Matrix didn't make the first any less of a good movie, the soulless newer seasons of The Simpsons didn't make the old ones any less great, the Star Wars prequels didn't alter the original trilogy, etc...
{snip}
Basically, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain when a new piece entertainment becomes available: if it's good you get to enjoy it as much as you want, if it's bad you can drop it halfway through and never watch it again, but if it doesn't exist you don't have the option to choose, and that's never preferable.
You are, of course, entirely correct, in principle. Nothing changes the awesomeness of what was done before. Yet, as you point out, others also feel uncomfortable with the idea. This illustrates a little idea of mine, which I like to call 'the paradox of the canon'.

We all know that stories are works of fiction. We know it's all made up: it's just a piece of entertainment, in truth there is no Madoka, no Homura, no Kyōko, no Sayaka, no Mami. This being the case, a work of fiction is what it is, and nothing can be 'undone' in it by whatever is written after it. Just as fanfiction doesn't affect the TV show, any future expansions of the Madokaverse or the Madoka franchise will not affect its first instantiation.

Yet since we all have hearts and brains that like to dream and dwell in dreams, we like to imagine these characters as real, as not just ideas Urobuchi had that were then brought to life under Shinbo's direction and with wonderful voice actors. No, we like to imagine that these wonderful characters have a life of their own, albeit in some parallel universe. Like the trekkie-lookalikes in Galaxy Quest, we want it all to exist somewhere.

And one important feature of existence is consistency. If the next movie from the same canonical source tells us 'what happened next', we have the instinctive desire to accept it. Just as we accept that Kyōko really died with Sayaka in the final conflagration in Sayaka's labirynth (we don't just say "nooo, I don't like this; in my head, I'll believe that what really happened was that Kyōko and Madoka managed to reach Sayaka and bring her back to her old self!"), we'll have the instinctive feeling that, if the next movie tells us that 'something important' happened, then it really did -- and if it turns out to affect the TV series, then we will feel bad about it. For instance, if the final movie tells us that the entire story up to the last movie was just another 'weird dream' that Madoka was having (like the one in Episode 1), we may of course continue to enjoy everything in the series just as we always did -- but to our desire for consistency in this 'parallel universe' where we like to imagine our dear characters really exist and live, this will feel like a betrayal, because suddenly all of them (except for Sayaka) will become just figments of Madoka's imagination.

Perhaps the right thing to do is to free oneself as much as possible from the 'paradox of the canon', and just relax and enjoy the show and not try to retroactively change past experiences on the basis of 'new data' from the movies. That would certainly be 'saner'. But humans are symbolic beings, we love symbols and want them to be as real as we are... and this 'saner' option implies making them a little less real. We know they aren't really real, but still... Sigh...

So I can understand and empathize with those who feel that the second and third Matrix movies 'spoiled the fun' that the first movie had created. I did feel that way, too. But my rational side agrees with you: I can block the bad influence from the second and third movies ('Merovingian', argh!) and just remain entertained and, well, in love with the first movie.

But it's hard!... So very hard!...

Last edited by Asehpe; 2016-01-14 at 09:00.
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Old 2016-01-13, 20:48   Link #734
Asehpe
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Are... Are you me? No seriously, that is almost exactly how I feel about it too. Hated the idea of a sequel, still saw Rebellion, initially hated it, eventually warmed up to it though I always thought it was absolutely terrible as an ending (not just for what happens in it, but also for how it presents itself; Literally every single scene is directed in such a way that it feels like setup for more conflict later, and at the end it feels like the movie just stops), and have been clamoring for some sort of sequel to it just because as it stands I feel the story is incomplete.

Personally though, I've already accepted that whatever comes next almost certainly will not be as good as the show. Nor do I think an ending as satisfying as the TV-series one can really be done again at this point. Not even if they were to end the hypothetical sequel with the TV-series ending fully restored exactly the way it was, because that would just make both sequels feel utterly pointless.
I would certainly like to think I am many people ()... I'm glad we are in agreement about this. Makes my day! Madoka knows how easy it is to find people who disagree with you in the internet, often as vehemently as a banshee...

As for me, I don't know if this is the right place to discuss 'Rebellion', but... I saw it as changing the topic. At first I was appalled at what it seemed to do to Homura; then I realized that Homura in the TV series was already somewhat creepily obsessed with Madoka. I thought a little more about that, read and watched some reviews of the movie (among which SFDebris' review, which I recommend, at http://sfdebris.com/videos/anime/madokarebellion.php), and came to the conclusion that the movie was actually quite good.

It does change the topic: from the dual relation of hope and despair in the series, to Homura's obsession with Madoka. But the topic that the movie chose, the change that it made, is... intriguing. Interesting. Now we face the comparison between Madoka as selfless love ('I sacrifice myself to alleviate the suffering of all those Magical Girls who died without hope...'), and Homura as selfish love ('I want Madoka to be happy, and I know what happiness is for Madoka, so I am going to give it to her no matter what!').

Homura wants 'her' Madoka to be happy, regardless of the actual choices made by all real Madokas in the TV series. Her conversation with Madoka in the middle of the 'Rebellion' movie may be what made her decide to do this, but she certainly also knew that the Madoka she was talking to was an unexperienced, 'naive' Madoka; she was not the 'informed' Madoka at the end of the TV series. And she certainly was not the Madoka-as-Incarnation-of-the-Law-of-Cycles that tried to save Homura by taking her soul gem to Magical Girl Valhalla. So, in a very true sense, Homura's decision was only Homura's; it was the decision of which Madoka she wanted to have, which Madoka she wanted to see 'happy'; after deciding this, her actions become sensible as steps towards achieving this happiness.

But since there are so many Madokas to choose from (which is not simply a feature of Madoka's; it's true for all human beings... I am not the same person I was when I was 10, or 17; if confronted with difficult situations, my 10- or 17-year-old self would certainly have made different, probably stupider, choices), Homura's choice of a Madoka simply translates as her deciding she knows what is best ('after I know what is best, I'll just think of the "right Madoka" who would also want this'). So it's all Homura's choice, even if she thinks she is doing 'what Madoka "truly" wants.'

So basically Homura is doing what she wants. She has decided what is best for Madoka, and so she forced it on Madoka, by basically trapping her in a fantasy world that is not essentially different from the fantasy world inside the Incubators' isolation field where Homura had been trapped.

Selfish love. The kind in which I say 'I know what is best for you, so just listen and do as I say'. Since this is not really Madoka -- not the Madoka at the end of the TV series, at least --, this is bound to lead to conflict, as was foreshadowed in 'Rebellion' when Madoka temporarily reconvered some memories of her previous self, and Homura ended up saying 'perhaps we will eventually be enemies'.

Yes, they will -- selfless love vs. selfish love. What will Urobuchi come up with for this particular dilemma? He did something awesome with hope and despair; it may not be utterly stupid to hope that he will come up with something interesting and insightful also in this case. He certainly surprised me in his take on hope and despair; he made me think about the topic in a way I never had before.

My first gut feeling is that Madoka's selfless love should win. Maybe she will eventually punish Homura by trapping her inside of a bubble universe with a little copy of herself, a little Madoka that Homura can go on protecting as she sees fit, Would that be a hell for Homura, or a heaven? She would basically have the same problem Madoka now has, the problem Sayaka understood (as Homura said in the TV series, Sayaka is sharp -- she understands things): the lack of authenticity of what she is doing. Would it be OK to do that to Homura? Was it OK to do that to Madoka?

Well, what will Urobuchi do with this? I don't know. Maybe something else, something I haven't thought about at all, something surprising, refreshing, new. Maybe he'll consider the topic of what happiness truly is: can Homura know what happiness is, or at least what happiness-for-Madoka is? Can Madoka? Can anyone? How can we choose if we don't know what happiness is? How can Madoka, or Homura?... Or maybe not, maybe Urobuchi will end up with something unsatisfactory. But it is possible to hope, and his past record makes this hope plausible.

Which is why I am not unhappy with sequels to the TV series. Because they're about new topics -- the TV series is so self-contained, I don't think there's anything Urobuchi could further say about hope and despair that isn't already there. But since it's a new, unrelated topic... the sky is the limit.

Last edited by Asehpe; 2016-01-13 at 21:16.
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Old 2016-01-13, 20:58   Link #735
Asehpe
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By the way, I wonder if anyone knows if there is something like "Madokism" for Madoka-as-Goddess, similar to Haruhiism for Haruhi-Suzumiya-as-Goddess. I wouldn't mind being a 'Madokist' priest myself, if such a thing exists...
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Old 2016-01-14, 05:08   Link #736
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[...]Cannon[...]
I guess I can see where you all are coming from, my train of thought is usually strictly logical but that doesn't make a more sentimental mindset any less valid; let's just hope they pull off a wonderful sequel then, that much we can all agree with.

By the way, the word you are looking for is "canon", not "cannon".

http://grammarist.com/spelling/canon-cannon/
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Old 2016-01-14, 08:58   Link #737
Asehpe
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I guess I can see where you all are coming from, my train of thought is usually strictly logical but that doesn't make a more sentimental mindset any less valid; let's just hope they pull off a wonderful sequel then, that much we can all agree with.

By the way, the word you are looking for is "canon", not "cannon".

http://grammarist.com/spelling/canon-cannon/
Sorry about that! English not being my native language (I'm Brazilian), this kinda has its effects... I'll edit it in the original post.

Let me just say that I admire the more rational mindset you espouse. I try to follow it in my own appreciation of works of art. I am just not very good at it; but I do think it is a better, less risky attitude.
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