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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-17, 16:22   Link #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's Sayaka we're talking about. She's having a moral conflict and it's eating her inside out. She's not going cynical because her morals are just too strong to give up like that, so she's going crazy instead.
Heh, you must not watch enough fundamentalists. It's kind alike how Glenn Beck can argue that George Soros is bad because he's a multi-billionaire and owns diversified companies and has an ideological agenda... while ignoring that Fox News (the network Beck appears on) is owned by a multi-billionaire who owns other companies and has an ideological agenda.

Arguably, the fact that Sayaka is having these issues, is because she recognizes the moral conflict is attempting to work through it. Whether she does, we shall see. She could get through it with the help of Kyoko, or she could become as crazed as Beck. Or she could just end up in the middle and turn cynical like Homura and Kyoko.
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Old 2011-02-17, 16:27   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And it's still fanon that MG's can turn into witches. Hell, to listen to Kyube talk, he deliberately makes their soul strong enough that it wouldn't turn into one. It would actually be counter-productive to let MG's be vulnerable to that. Even if, by some odd chance, he wants that to happen, he has a horrible track record. Kyoko, Homura, and Mami haven't become witches, so even if Sayaka does, that's only a 25% success rate.
It would be counterproductive to let MG fight amongst themselves, possible ending in death too, but QB still brought Kyoko to the city. It would be counterproductive to allow MG to require Grief Seeds to continue fighting, since there would be more of an incentive to mass contract MG without competition.

It's not too hard to see why people speculate that MG can turn into witches. Soul Gems become dirty, require grief seed, extract darkness into grief seed. Which begs the question to what happens when the Soul Gem crosses the threshold. QB mentions that Grief Seeds who accumulate too much of the darkness have a chance to revive the witch. So I don't see why it is so surprising people are making these connections.
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Old 2011-02-17, 16:35   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I agree about Hitomi. That was commendable of her to spill everything to Sayaka first rather than go behind her back.

Now that Sayaka went bonkers, I predict she's going to come up with a twisted "if I can't have Kamijo then no one else will" logic. She will either seriously injure Hitomi or kill her.
To add the tragedy....
Spoiler for what if:

oh lol
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Old 2011-02-17, 16:37   Link #64
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There's also this cute word play

magical girl kanji is : 魔法少女
魔法 = method of magic / sorcery / magecraft
少女 = young girl

kanji for witch is = 魔女
魔 evil / magic
女 woman

You can't spell magical girl without "witch"
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Old 2011-02-17, 16:37   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Arguably, the fact that Sayaka is having these issues, is because she recognizes the moral conflict is attempting to work through it. Whether she does, we shall see. She could get through it with the help of Kyoko, or she could become as crazed as Beck. Or she could just end up in the middle and turn cynical like Homura and Kyoko.
Oi, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know what's gonna happen to her later on. I just said that right now her moral conflict is driving her to the bottom. And if she keeps this up, she's going to end up killing someone or something.

In any case, things don't look bright for her at all.
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Old 2011-02-17, 16:45   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
It would be counterproductive to let MG fight amongst themselves, possible ending in death too, but QB still brought Kyoko to the city. It would be counterproductive to allow MG to require Grief Seeds to continue fighting, since there would be more of an incentive to mass contract MG without competition.
Should clarify this, because Kyube said point blank he needed an MG to cover the territory, and since neither Madoka nor Sayaka were stepping up, someone needed to. Kyube didn't bring Kyoko around to fight other MG's, but because he needed an MG to cover the territory. It was only because Sayaka changed her mind, that we ended up with a conflict.

It is counter-productive to have them fight, but it's not something that Kyube has any power to stop, either. Well, if he had super-strong MG who could step in, that would be one thing; but Madoka doesn't want to do it.

As far as grief seed collection, that's just how the magic works in this universe. It makes a certain sense, since it is the essence of guerrilla warfare. You take your enemies weapons and use them, much like you have the hero in an FPS game pick up the weapons that his opponents drop. So Kyube can have his girls continually power themselves by using the magic of the witches.

Of course, since we don't know how or why this system got set up, we can't say for sure. But just because the girls have to use grief seeds, doesn't mean there isn't some reason behind it that Kyube is powerless to change. And that seems to be a running theme here; Kyube is essentially powerless to do anything except contract with MG's and store grief seeds.
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:03   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Should clarify this, because Kyube said point blank he needed an MG to cover the territory, and since neither Madoka nor Sayaka were stepping up, someone needed to. Kyube didn't bring Kyoko around to fight other MG's, but because he needed an MG to cover the territory. It was only because Sayaka changed her mind, that we ended up with a conflict.

It is counter-productive to have them fight, but it's not something that Kyube has any power to stop, either. Well, if he had super-strong MG who could step in, that would be one thing; but Madoka doesn't want to do it.

As far as grief seed collection, that's just how the magic works in this universe. It makes a certain sense, since it is the essence of guerrilla warfare. You take your enemies weapons and use them, much like you have the hero in an FPS game pick up the weapons that his opponents drop. So Kyube can have his girls continually power themselves by using the magic of the witches.

Of course, since we don't know how or why this system got set up, we can't say for sure. But just because the girls have to use grief seeds, doesn't mean there isn't some reason behind it that Kyube is powerless to change. And that seems to be a running theme here; Kyube is essentially powerless to do anything except contract with MG's and store grief seeds.
I find it hard to believe that he would not even try to stop Kyoko and Sayaka from fighting. And to the fact that he can literally torture the MG just by pressing his paw against their soul gems, seems to indicate he has some control over their actions. This means that he can enforce his will upon the girls to maintain the contract, or coerce them once he makes a contract. About the fight specifically, he didn't seem to have any qualms about Kyoko's method to farm Grief seeds either.

If it meant letting a couple humans get devoured or killed to allow the familiars to develop into full fledge witches. They're not actively combating witches, but akin to fattening up pigs for the slaughter, which is against QB's so called wishes to protect humanity from witches, yet he doesn't seem to show any problems with this method. It does not actively lower the population of witches, akin to a predator-prey ecosystem, rather enforces a self-preserving cycle.

About the magic bit. I'm a bit skeptical and cautious to say that QB uses a witches power to create MG akin to Pandora in Freezing. First it must mean there is a strong connection between witches and MG than we previously thought. It could mean that MG are created from witches, meaning it wouldn't be surprising to say the reverse couldn't happen as well. If you read the Claymore series you'll know what I'm hinting at.
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:05   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Heh, you must not watch enough fundamentalists. It's kind alike how Glenn Beck can argue that George Soros is bad because he's a multi-billionaire and owns diversified companies and has an ideological agenda... while ignoring that Fox News (the network Beck appears on) is owned by a multi-billionaire who owns other companies and has an ideological agenda.

Arguably, the fact that Sayaka is having these issues, is because she recognizes the moral conflict is attempting to work through it. Whether she does, we shall see. She could get through it with the help of Kyoko, or she could become as crazed as Beck. Or she could just end up in the middle and turn cynical like Homura and Kyoko.
It's curious you bring up Fox News, because your arguments in favor of Kyubey and now of Sayaka reminds me of Fox News' blind praise for Cheney.

Last edited by Decagon; 2011-02-17 at 17:20.
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:08   Link #69
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It was probably akin to getting punched in the stomach, rather than slapping some sense into Sayaka. QB is a wife beater, oh noes!
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:13   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post



While I'd agree on a difference, I'd argue that it ultimately doesn't matter.
I disagree.

I don't know if this anime is going to have much of a theme or not, but if it does, it might have absolutely nothing to do with idealism vs. cynicism, per se.

The theme might simply be that it's better to be careful, cautious, diplomatic, thoughtful, and trying to find peaceful solutions to problems (like Madoka), than it is to be courageous, headstrong, welcoming of conflict, and quick to engage in violent solutions to problems (like Sayaka).

That is a separate issue from idealism vs. cynicism, Kaijo, as the two competing positions are both somewhat idealistic. In fact, one could easily argue that Madoka's is the more idealistic and morally cleaner of the two (violence can, of course, be seen as bad in and of itself).

So if Madoka is shown to be right all along, and if Sayaka is shown to be wrong all along, then how does that promote cynicism over idealism? Fact is, that it doesn't.


Now, as I've stated before, I don't want an intensely idealistic climax for this anime, where Madoka is the ultimate heroine triumphing over an incredibly evil big bad, bringing down a corrupt system with him.

But regardless of what I want there, it would hardly be illogical or "bad writing" (in an objective "this doesn't make sense" way) for Urobuchi to go for that. I think it would be a missed opportunity for this anime to go for that, but that's not quite the same as "bad writing", per se. I've read plenty of comic books with idealistic messages, but they were still reasonably well-written.


Quote:
Sayaka and Madoka (and Mami) were all doing "good" things,
Not necessarily. If Madoka's approach is shown to be right, one can argue that Sayaka wasn't doing "good", but that she was rather being reckless, needlessly violent, and not thinking things through enough.


Quote:
Perhaps some hardship along the way, but ultimately triumphing.
Well, that's what Madoka is going through. Hardship.

If Madoka's basic beliefs and values remain unchanged for the entirety of this anime, and she ends up triumphing in the end (arguably because she stood by those beliefs and values) then what does that say, Kaijo?


Quote:

Since Mami is dead and Sayaka is supposedly headed for a psychotic breakdown and Madoka is ineffectual, I personally think the writing is fairly clear.
Well hey, by this rationale, we can argue that the cynical Homura is "ineffectual". Homura probably didn't want Mami to die, and Sayaka heading for a psychotic breakdown likely doesn't help matters on the Madoka front.

Also, being ineffectual at persuasion doesn't necessarily mean that the point you're trying to make with that persuasion is wrong. In fact, a good way to show that the point being made was correct is to show negative repercussions arising from that point being ignored or dismissed.
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:28   Link #71
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I think that Triple_R is definitely on to something here. Before I really comment indepth, I'll wait for some subs, but the difference in method and approach between Sayaka and Madoka is really very visible. And while I do agree that Sayaka's intentions are fundamentally sound, her pain is blinding her that she's straying more and more from the path she started on.
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:44   Link #72
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I can't even find a raw so how come this has already 4 pages of discussion + actual votes on an episode ? o.O
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:52   Link #73
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I can't even find a raw so how come this has already 4 pages of discussion + actual votes on an episode ? o.O
The ep's already aired. Just need to know where to look. -cough-
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Old 2011-02-17, 17:54   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
I find it hard to believe that he would not even try to stop Kyoko and Sayaka from fighting.
What would you suggest he do?

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Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
It's curious you bring up Fox News, because your arguments in favor of Kyubey and now of Sayaka reminds me of Fox News' blind praise for Cheney.
You would be not reading all of my posts if you thought that. I have anything but blind praise. Indeed, I've called out Sayaka for her hot-headed recklessness and Kyube for his morally questionable methods (and possibly dickish ones based on what I'm hearing about this episode, but waiting to watch subs for myself) for almost as long as I've been in this forum.

But I suppose there is a blind spot there, as well. Anyone who has anything positive to say about Kyube or Sayaka must automatically be lapping at their feet, eh? I guess I'll sit back and wait for the next person to claim "blind praise" thus showing they don't actually read posts.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The theme might simply be that it's better to be careful, cautious, diplomatic, thoughtful, and trying to find peaceful solutions to problems (like Madoka), than it is to be courageous, headstrong, welcoming of conflict, and quick to engage in violent solutions to problems (like Sayaka).

That is a separate issue from idealism vs. cynicism, Kaijo, as the two competing positions are both somewhat idealistic. In fact, one could easily argue that Madoka's is the more idealistic and morally cleaner of the two (violence can, of course, be seen as bad in and of itself).

So if Madoka is shown to be right all along, and if Sayaka is shown to be wrong all along, then how does that promote cynicism over idealism? Fact is, that it doesn't.
No, it doesn't. What you have to realize...Madoka agrees with Sayaka. Madoka said it herself, "Sayaka is doing the right thing." If Madoka agrees with Sayaka, then there is no real conflict between the ideologies. Madoka's problem is that she just didn't want Sayaka to fight other magical girls, but couldn't really call what Sayaka was doing "wrong." Indeed, Madoka knew that Sayaka was right, so their thoughts on idealism are very close.

Quote:
Not necessarily. If Madoka's approach is shown to be right, one can argue that Sayaka wasn't doing "good", but that she was rather being reckless, needlessly violent, and not thinking things through enough.
Curiously enough, it was Madoka not thinking things through almost killed Sayaka. Even if tossing the soul gem overboard wasn't going to do any direct harm, she just tossed away Sayaka's only weapon when two other girls were planning to beat her down. It was Madoka not thinking things through that led Madoka into a witch's domain that could have led to her death or worse.

So while I can call Sayaka a bit hot-headed, it's been shown that Madoka does more things without thinking than Sayaka does; at the least, they might be considered equal in that regard.

Sayaka's problem is more that people aren't telling her things. Madoka didn't tell her about Homura, and Kyube didn't tell her fully about the soul gems. If you go into something, and find out later that people didn't tell you things, does that make you reckless and "not thinking things through"?

Last thing for this point, is that I would contest needlessly violent. Kyoko made it quite clear that as long as she was around, she was going to let familiars feed on humans. No one has yet answered how they would "negotiate" with that, but even taking the time to negotiate means people will die. I wouldn't want that on my conscience, so if Kyoko wasn't going to yield, I'd smack her up.

Do we hold to our beliefs so strongly, that we are willing to let other people pay the price?

Quote:
Well, that's what Madoka is going through. Hardship.

If Madoka's basic beliefs and values remain unchanged for the entirety of this anime, and she ends up triumphing in the end (arguably because she stood by those beliefs and values) then what does that say, Kaijo?
A lack of character growth, in my opinion. If she was right from the start, then she didn't need much growth, and her idealism should have carried through. Considering what is going on, Madoka's idealism a big 0 for 5, or so. They say the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Quote:
Well hey, by this rationale, we can argue that the cynical Homura is "ineffectual". Homura probably didn't want Mami to die, and Sayaka heading for a psychotic breakdown likely doesn't help matters on the Madoka front.
I wouldn't call Homura ineffectual; she's getting most of what she wants right now. Madoka is still not an MG, although Kyoko is giving her some issues.

Quote:
Also, being ineffectual at persuasion doesn't necessarily mean that the point you're trying to make with that persuasion is wrong. In fact, a good way to show that the point being made was correct is to show negative repercussions arising from that point being ignored or dismissed.
I wasn't implying ineffectual at persuasion; I was implying ineffectual, period. She hasn't stopped any witches or familiars, she didn't stop Mami's death, she couldn't stop Sayaka and Kyoko from fighting, she can't think of any good solutions, and she spends most of her time in angstville. Even Shinji accomplished things despite his angst.

Well, I will give her the one thing where she stopped Hitomi and the others from suiciding, but that wouldn't have amounted to much if Sayaka hadn't of killed the familiar/witch. If Sayaka hadn't of made her contract, Madoka could have been dead now.
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Old 2011-02-17, 18:35   Link #75
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Wait wait wait, from what I can tell Hitomi simply said she liked him and that's it. What's the big deal, so they like the same guy, that doesn't mean Sayaka and Kamijou can't be together.
Sayaka thinks herself as a zombie, and thus incapable of being together with Kamijou (she said them when she was crying to Madoka).
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Old 2011-02-17, 18:49   Link #76
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What would you suggest he do?
I just said it, but he has the ability to enforce the contract by causing pain to MGs shown in episode 7.
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:24   Link #77
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I just said it, but he has the ability to enforce the contract by causing pain to MGs shown in episode 7.
It was my understanding he was touching her soul gem, which was out. Do you think Kyoko would let him get close enough to do so? Even if she did because she wasn't sure what he would do, do you think she would stand there and let it happen once she started feeling pain? Why wouldn't he do that to get Homura off his back?
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:32   Link #78
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I was under the impression that what Kyuubei did was more of a demonstration than anything done out of outright malice. Kind of like "this is what you are now, accept it and get on with your duty already!"

That said, it doesn't really help with Sayaka's situation any.
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:34   Link #79
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I just noticed, but Sayaka's body is getting all wrecked in the last scene. Putting aside the fact that she's casting her human self aside and going bat-shit crazy, I was wondering who's going to fix her body. Kyubey said this can be done with magic, but it seems they will need a freaking lot of it to fix that crazy chick....
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:35   Link #80
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It was my understanding he was touching her soul gem, which was out. Do you think Kyoko would let him get close enough to do so? Even if she did because she wasn't sure what he would do, do you think she would stand there and let it happen once she started feeling pain? Why wouldn't he do that to get Homura off his back?
It would make sense if QB has some tools at his disposal to enforce the contracts. Otherwise the entire system of contracting MG to "fight witches" would be moot if he didn't have some control over the girls. So it might not be so arbitrary as to simply touching the soul gem to cause pain.

In episode 7, when Sayaka was lashing out at QB about the soul gems, he (to my understanding of Japanese) mentions that neither Mami nor Kyoko were aware of the true nature of the Soul Gems, and maybe the extent of QBs ability to cause cause pain. So in that respect to Kyoko or any of the girls there is no reason for them to be on their guard, being a cute mini-Mephistopheles that he is.

Get Homura off his back? Are you talking about her constant attempts to prevent Madoka from making a contract?
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