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Old 2011-12-06, 20:17   Link #821
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Spoiler for True Tears:
Spoiler for Comparison to True Tears:
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Old 2011-12-06, 20:21   Link #822
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I must be a bloody sadist for watching "that scene" over and over again...
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Old 2011-12-06, 21:17   Link #823
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One more unrelated point about the imagery/symbolism in this show.

Spoiler for Up to Episode 10: "Umbrella":
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Old 2011-12-06, 21:37   Link #824
vio5555
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Originally Posted by karuroso View Post
Spoiler for ep10: what the...:
While I do think the anime put Airi in the figurative "pole position" from episode 1 through 6 in terms of how she felt (by episode 3 she openly stated that she felt differently around Shingo than other boys), I don't think she really scored any relationship points with him from his point of view, since he didn't really disclose his feelings until episode 7 when the Miu/Sana arc started, and it wasn't really clear that he was aware of her in terms of as relationship material.

This is definitely not the kind of show that you want to be shipping for though; it's one you should just enjoy for the ride because Shingo hasn't really waffled and developed his feelings for Miu rather quickly starting from a rather blank slate in terms of how he felt about the girls...

Compared to other shows, this one spent far more time in the introduction "phase" so that's probably why a lot of people feel misled in a sense...

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Spoiler for The show to this point:
Spoiler:

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2011-12-06 at 22:40. Reason: merge double posts
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Old 2011-12-06, 21:59   Link #825
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Originally Posted by vio5555 View Post
While I do think the anime put Airi in the figurative "pole position" from episode 1 through 6 in terms of how she felt (by episode 3 she openly stated that she felt differently around Shingo than other boys), I don't think she really scored any relationship points with him from his point of view, since he didn't really disclose his feelings until episode 7 when the Miu/Sana arc started, and it wasn't really clear that he was aware of her in terms of as relationship material.

This is definitely not the kind of show that you want to be shipping for though; it's one you should just enjoy for the ride because Shingo hasn't really waffled and developed his feelings for Miu rather quickly starting from a rather blank slate in terms of how he felt about the girls...

Compared to other shows, this one spent far more time in the introduction "phase" so that's probably why a lot of people feel misled in a sense...
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-12-06, 22:13   Link #826
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Originally Posted by karuroso View Post
Spoiler:
Yeah, I think it's fair to say that none of the girls have been misled. I mean even Airi after the famous bathtub scene says "that's just how he is" in terms of taking care of people selflessly, there's no ulterior motive for any of his interactions with the girls in the first 6 episodes.
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Old 2011-12-06, 22:38   Link #827
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Spoiler:
Spoiler for Episode 10 and on:
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Old 2011-12-06, 22:45   Link #828
Vena
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Originally Posted by vio5555 View Post
Yeah, I think it's fair to say that none of the girls have been misled. I mean even Airi after the famous bathtub scene says "that's just how he is" in terms of taking care of people selflessly, there's no ulterior motive for any of his interactions with the girls in the first 6 episodes.
The biggest issue is really that all of this becomes much clearer in hindsight but its really the *first impressions* that make or break a deal for someone. As good as a show may be, if the first half or even just four or so episodes of it paint a picture in a viewers head, bore them, or whatever, they will carry that first impression with them through the show. If a person is bored of a show, for an example, they'll not want to continue watching on the promise that "it gets better". If I were to sum up my main gripe with the show, that would probably cover all of the points in a succinct one liner. The first half is deceptive in that it alludes to things that have not gone anywhere as of now and don't look to be ever on the chopping block of resolution, or had forays into characters that amounted to bugger all. In hindsight, some of these issues cannot be addressed and some can be linked together symbolically, but from the seat of a random viewer who isn't reading threads like this or committing all that much time to the show, it may lead them astray and their subsequent expectations dashed.

So yes, Mashifony: An intro that lead us along a big road with bread crumbs scattered about that eventually became the path when the big road disappeared. You can follow the bread crumbs back to the start, the big road though... the construction workers left before finishing. What a colorful metaphor that was.

I'm still going to call it a good show, great even for its genre and limitations. Unfortunately, no matter how well the show does, sale or VN wise, I doubt we'll see more of this adapted unless its in an OAV movie sort of thing.

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Spoiler for Episode 10 and on:
Spoiler for Imagine it:
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Old 2011-12-06, 23:06   Link #829
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The biggest issue is really that all of this becomes much clearer in hindsight but its really the *first impressions* that make or break a deal for someone. As good as a show may be, if the first half or even just four or so episodes of it paint a picture in a viewers head, bore them, or whatever, they will carry that first impression with them through the show. If a person is bored of a show, for an example, they'll not want to continue watching on the promise that "it gets better". If I were to sum up my main gripe with the show, that would probably cover all of the points in a succinct one liner. The first half is deceptive in that it alludes to things that have not gone anywhere as of now and don't look to be ever on the chopping block of resolution, or had forays into characters that amounted to bugger all. In hindsight, some of these issues cannot be addressed and some can be linked together symbolically, but from the seat of a random viewer who isn't reading threads like this or committing all that much time to the show, it may lead them astray and their subsequent expectations dashed.
But I don't think this show has fundamentally changed. I was never enjoying this show because I expected them to end the show a certain way or go down a certain route. I enjoyed this show from the get-go for the careful way they developed the characters, and the very thoughtful, considered interactions between the cast revolving around certain central themes. If someone isn't going to pay attention to the character development or reflect on the interactions, themes, and symbolism at play, they may be confused as to where this show's heart really is and what it's really about. And if so, they miss out. Is that really a flaw in the show, or is it a flaw in the audience?

I don't agree that they were being deceptive in any of the earlier developments, even if they didn't lead to the ultimate destination that some people were expecting. These developments were still meaningful and important in the overall development of the show, its themes, its characters, and its overall message. This was developed progressively throughout the show, not just in retrospect. While they didn't firmly close every door that was opened, that doesn't mean these developments amounted to nothing.

People often complain bitterly that anime follows a pre-set formula and sticks too closely to tropes and archetypes such that the medium lacks in originality and everything's too predictable. But whenever a show doesn't strictly conform to convention and tries to tell a story that's more subtle than can be easily captured by first impressions, people dismiss the show and don't give it a chance, or end up judging it negatively because it didn't give them the ending they wanted.

I'm not going to shed too many tears for the "random viewer" who doesn't give the show his/her full attention or give it a chance to come into its own. The fact that this show is thoughtful and introspective and expects the same from its audience is arguably its greatest strength.


Edit: Since we could probably go on forever about this point, let me just say that I'm not saying the approach they used didn't have issues/drawbacks. I can agree with vio's statement below that it is an "arguable weakness" -- arguable because this approach also has certain strengths, not least of which the way that it gave us so much to talk about and speculate about for the past many weeks. As I've said before, this show seems more concerned with presenting "a" plausible path than "The Only Path", and I think that suits a show that spent so much time developing a whole bunch of characters. So I guess I can understand why some might consider this a weakness, but I don't consider it a weakness for me. That's why I don't like it when you say that the show was "deceptive", because even though the show didn't end the way I originally suspected it would, I don't feel that they ever deceived me along the way. There was no "trickery" involved. If you say that the first half was "potentially misleading" (especially based on what people have come to accept from anime in this genre), then I could probably agree -- because, as a matter of fact, many people were misled.
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Old 2011-12-06, 23:07   Link #830
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Yeah, I was arguing for your point on the previous page in my spoiler-comparisons post for why I think that's the one arguable weakness of the show.

This show really didn't provide much clarity early on with respect to the eventual pairing, and it's safe to say that anything that can be read has to be read after we already knew the facts. There wasn't much in the way of hints as to which path the anime was going on (although plenty of ambiguous hints were provided for each girl), since you could read any ending out of the first 6 episodes with the hindsight of knowing the actual ending.

But as relentlessflame has said many times on this thread, the show followed the general introduction path for 6 episodes and then decided to go towards a specific pairing path (past the point of no return presumably).

It's tough for me to fault the show for that, since I wasn't that focused on the romantic pairings until he started to get closer to Sana and then Miu, which triggered everything...
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Old 2011-12-06, 23:29   Link #831
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Spoiler for Episode 10 and on:
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-12-07, 00:04   Link #832
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From the bottom, some what. And looky! We got more ammo to shoot at each other.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I'm not going to shed too many tears for the "random viewer" who doesn't give the show his/her full attention or give it a chance to come into its own. The fact that this show is thoughtful and introspective and expects the same from its audience is arguably its greatest strength.
Requiring such from your audience is also a weakness, isn't it? I'm not saying to feed people details, anything but that, but many of the *hints* in the first half of the show really aren't clear unless you know the ending. In which case, your entire view will change because you'll... know the ending. Thus, requiring your audience to be incredibly introspective and analytical can lead to rifts in interpretations when the waters are so murky. Its fine to be symbolic and expect it to be picked up on, but when you thrown in allusions to other things in with the mix to hide your plot (and I'm still not happy with the explanation that certain scenes were simply used to obfuscate the goal of the plot; I'm pretty sure this wouldn't fly as valid writing if I tried to pull it in one my publications unless it was a mystery and said obfuscating were addressed by Dr. Holmes), can you really hold the audience accountable for not looking to the man behind the curtain? This is why I once said heavy handed symbolism, which was too strong a word back then, because the later half of the show is *much more* clear cut in its direction. (And I'm not even going to fault the show on this because it's a natural progression even if I found the change rather abrupt when it happened. If they didn't turn up the symbolism in the second half we'd all still be scratching our heads... maybe. )

I have no qualm with calling the first six episodes the setting of our stage pieces and the actors for our drama, I'm perfectly fine with it. Its just that some pieces were set-up as if they were distractions and haven't amounted to much more than that. Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain!

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I don't agree that they were being deceptive in any of the earlier developments, even if they didn't lead to the ultimate destination that some people were expecting. These developments were still meaningful and important in the overall development of the show, its themes, its characters, and its overall message. This was developed progressively throughout the show, not just in retrospect. While they didn't firmly close every door that was opened, that doesn't mean these developments amounted to nothing.
I don't mind admitting that I had expected an Airi end, I think most of us were thinking/expecting that when episode 4 concluded and even into episode 6. But my enjoyment didn't come from that; in fact, most of what I enjoyed in the show and what hooked me were: the music, the character designs, and what felt like it would be a slow and steady story of friends and love. This really didn't change (and in the overall scheme has not changed much at all even now) until the birthday scene where I thought "Aha! I've found some plot in all this fluffy goodness! We're going to delve into a more somber story now!" (and as you remember, I had thought that Shingo's asthma was something... boy was I lolably wrong) ... didn't happen. It could have been Airi, Sakuno, Miu, Sana, or even Ange, the girl in and of itself was not relevant but the little carrot they hung out on the end of a stick was (the fact that it was Airi just lends itself to the whole obfuscating issue). It begs to be answered and for more questions to be asked: what was being alluded to, what are the circumstances, etc, and...

I bit.

Is it wrong for me to be disappointed with the fact that said carrot on the stick led to the end of a loose string? It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the rest of the show on its own, but in the overall sense it does leave me with a sense of incompletion. (You can tie this into an overall incomplete feeling about Airi's character even if her evolution on what has been shown has been done in a superb fashion. She was developed well and I like your analysis on her development, but that doesn't change the fact that her backstory was put on the table then brushed aside when the deck was dealt later on in the series.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
People often complain bitterly that anime follows a pre-set formula and sticks too closely to tropes and archetypes such that the medium lacks in originality and everything's too predictable. But whenever a show doesn't strictly conform to convention and tries to tell a story that's more subtle than can be easily captured by first impressions, people dismiss the show and don't give it a chance, or end up judging it negatively because it didn't give them the ending they wanted.
Because people are inert by nature, not matter what they may say. They like the status quo even if they'll complain about it.

Nothing like a glass of wine while doing this.

Last edited by Vena; 2011-12-07 at 00:32.
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Old 2011-12-07, 00:20   Link #833
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Spoiler for related to ep 10:

Spoiler for spoiler ep 10:

Last edited by hyl; 2011-12-07 at 00:30. Reason: yeah it's a spoiler for the people who have not seen ep 10
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Old 2011-12-07, 00:42   Link #834
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Its fine to be symbolic and expect it to be picked up on, but when you thrown in allusions to other things in with the mix to hide your plot (and I'm still not happy with the explanation that certain scenes were simply used to obfuscate the goal of the plot; I'm pretty sure this wouldn't fly as valid writing if I tried to pull it in one my publications unless it was a mystery and said obfuscating were addressed by Dr. Holmes), can you really hold the audience accountable for not looking to the man behind the curtain?
Maybe not, but for better or worse I don't think this anime was intended to be taken in complete isolation. The fact that there are other paths the anime could have followed is pretty essential to the show's construction, and in fact essential to the game from which the anime is derived/inspired. If the anime can stand on its own, but also lights certain fires of interest in the audience that compel them to play the game, I think the production committee will consider that a job well done. Maybe this comes at a "cost" to some objective viewing of the anime as an independent standalone work, but indeed the anime is not a fully-complete work, even if it's "sufficient" on its own. I would even say that an anime adaptation of a branching/multi-path story cannot tell a complete story and remain completely faithful to the original source, especially not in 12 episodes. If that's the point you're trying to get across in all this, then I guess I'll concede.

To me, the goal of an eroge/VN adaptation should be to convey as much of the game as possible while creating a solid, cohesive story. And with that goal in mind, I think the anime has fared admirably. If you were reinventing the whole story as a standalone 12-episode anime, then I'm sure there's a lot of content that could be removed or reworked... but I think the primary audience for the anime is game players, or those who might become interested in playing the game. As a member of the former group, I can tell you that I think this anime is doing great justice to the game on which its based, and I'm quite impressed with the cohesive story they've managed to weave without requiring massive edits or rewrites. If that means that this anime always has to come with a "based on a multi-path game that you need to play to get the complete story" label, then I guess that's fine, but I don't think there's a single one of these adaptations that doesn't come with that disclaimer, and most would know that before they start. That doesn't mean that the story we do get isn't comprehensive and functionally complete... just that it doesn't say all there is to say on the matter and there is indeed more out there.
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Old 2011-12-07, 01:44   Link #835
Vena
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Maybe not, but for better or worse I don't think this anime was intended to be taken in complete isolation. The fact that there are other paths the anime could have followed is pretty essential to the show's construction, and in fact essential to the game from which the anime is derived/inspired. If the anime can stand on its own, but also lights certain fires of interest in the audience that compel them to play the game, I think the production committee will consider that a job well done. Maybe this comes at a "cost" to some objective viewing of the anime as an independent standalone work, but indeed the anime is not a fully-complete work, even if it's "sufficient" on its own. I would even say that an anime adaptation of a branching/multi-path story cannot tell a complete story and remain completely faithful to the original source, especially not in 12 episodes. If that's the point you're trying to get across in all this, then I guess I'll concede.
I'm not really looking for concessions or otherwise, I'm just enjoying the discussion, but I don't really think its *impossible* for a 12-episode show to tell a complete story even if its source is a VN. (Yes, I'd be hard pressed to find examples of it but I do not think its impossible.) I think Mashifony was very close or could have been very close to it, if they just had omitted certain scenes that hinted at things that didn't develop and haven't been of too much overall purpose otherwise. Tingling our taste buds with samplers of other routes is a great business strategy and all the more power to them for selling me on the game just so that I could see the rest of the story, but I'm not here to critique the show as an endeavor in economics.

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To me, the goal of an eroge/VN adaptation should be to convey as much of the game as possible while creating a solid, cohesive story. And with that goal in mind, I think the anime has fared admirably. If you were reinventing the whole story as a standalone 12-episode anime, then I'm sure there's a lot of content that could be removed or reworked... but I think the primary audience for the anime is game players, or those who might become interested in playing the game. As a member of the former group, I can tell you that I think this anime is doing great justice to the game on which its based, and I'm quite impressed with the cohesive story they've managed to weave without requiring massive edits or rewrites. If that means that this anime always has to come with a "based on a multi-path game that you need to play to get the complete story" label, then I guess that's fine, but I don't think there's a single one of these adaptations that doesn't come with that disclaimer, and most would know that before they start. That doesn't mean that the story we do get isn't comprehensive and functionally complete... just that it doesn't say all there is to say on the matter and there is indeed more out there.
I think we really just have different expectations from an adaptation in this genre. I do believe that the adaptation is a way to *reward* game players and/or to try and attract new ones, and that cohesion is as important here as in any other genre. But I do not believe that it is imperative to be so faithful to the source that the story of the adaptation be paper thin at regions just to satisfy or hint at *this or that*. If the adaptation molds the story to have a stellar, four legged plot that comes out running from the gates and never looks back, I would imagine this to be just as much an incentive to look into the source as some vague hints surrounding a good plot. (Liberties taken being a natural, as even Manglobe has taken liberties with this show and I do not see what stopped them taking others. They set the precedent in the show, why not go further? Just to hide the plot?)

Mashifony didn't need that much reworked but had it been done, it would have made the story obvious. Is this bad? I don't think so, especially not if that plot is consistent, solid, well paced, and so on and so forth. Its a good show, its really good, but its by my nature to be curious why it couldn't have been better and to that end I offer my criticism. What probably exasperates this is that the next few years will probably be heralded by twenty more Hoshizoras before I see another Mashifony attempt to take up the mantle to actually be good.
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Old 2011-12-07, 02:05   Link #836
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Mashifony didn't need that much reworked but had it been done, it would have made the story obvious. Is this bad? I don't think so, especially not if that plot is consistent, solid, well paced, and so on and so forth.
I think it's a toss-up of competing objectives. I mean, if the objective were primarily "we want to tell a love story between Shingo and a certain heroine", then yes, absolutely: a story that clearly develops a central relationship from start to finish and deals with the bumps along the way is the most effective. I've loved many romantic anime told in this style. But I think that's not the only good way, nor the only valid objective. To me, I think they've created an entertaining experience that has good cohesion and provided plenty to think about and discuss. Perhaps it's because I had already played the game, but the things you find worth criticizing simply don't register as notable flaws for me... and I guess that's that. I think we've belaboured this point enough by now, as fun though this may be. Time to let others speak.
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Old 2011-12-07, 02:12   Link #837
Vena
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I have a different entry into the series, so your point may be valid. I started anime-only and moved into the game. This is probably why certain empty threads are more glaring to me but I don't think I'm the only one. Or maybe I am...

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I think it's a toss-up of competing objectives. I mean, if the objective were primarily "we want to tell a love story between Shingo and a certain heroine", then yes, absolutely: a story that clearly develops a central relationship from start to finish and deals with the bumps along the way is the most effective. I've loved many romantic anime told in this style. But I think that's not the only good way, nor the only valid objective. To me, I think they've created an entertaining experience that has good cohesion and provided plenty to think about and discuss. Perhaps it's because I had already played the game, but the things you find worth criticizing simply don't register as notable flaws for me... and I guess that's that. I think we've belaboured this point enough by now, as fun though this may be. Time to let others speak.
It's certainly not the *only* way to tell a story but isn't this a tale of two people falling in love, developing a central relationship, and that deals with the bumps along the way?

Anyway, yes, let's leave this at that.
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Old 2011-12-07, 02:27   Link #838
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Argh, I'm not going to get into this, but one important point:
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It's certainly not the *only* way to tell a story but isn't this a tale of two people falling in love, developing a central relationship, and that deals with the bumps along the way?
I'd say this is not actually the theme of the show, nor it's most central element. As for what it is if not that... I'll let other people speculate, or say more once the show's done.
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Old 2011-12-07, 02:51   Link #839
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How am I supose to watch this ?! .... ^_^


Last edited by relentlessflame; 2011-12-07 at 02:53. Reason: Please don't post giant images behind spoiler tags
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Old 2011-12-07, 03:12   Link #840
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How am I supose to watch this ?! .... ^_^

true..sana is totally my favourite and that was extremely sad...
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