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Old 2011-12-10, 04:09   Link #961
U<3Anime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterVampire View Post
Maybe if Sana wasnt such a tsundere bitch she would of had a chance for him to like her that way.


I know, right? She even kicked him hard in the guts just because he was talking on the phone with Miu. WHAT GIVES? JUST TALKING ON THE PHONE, MAN!
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Old 2011-12-10, 04:25   Link #962
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I want to briefly revisit the Shingo/Airi bath scene, as upon further thought, this is one area where I continue to disagree with Relentlessflame.


Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

This isn't actually terribly relevant to the show.
I disagree. If major protagonists partake in actions that almost no viewer would be willing to, I think that runs the risk of severely undermining viewer suspension of disbelief, which is obviously not good for the show. Hence it is relevant to the show, imo.


Quote:
You have to consider how Airi and Shingo were taking it in their own context.
Shingo was quite flustered at the idea of bathing with his sister. He was also flustered at the idea of bathing with Ange, IIRC. Within Shingo's context, his established characterization very much seems to run contrary to him actually suggesting that him and a teenage girl (that he has no romantic feelings for) bathe naked together as a form of compromise.

Given Shingo's overall characterization, I don't think that the Shingo/Airi bathing scene was reasonable at all, unless both sides had romantic feelings for one another. In other words, I think that this anime, as it currently stands, would have been better off without that scene. It's very understandable how that scene would lead people to suspect a Shingo/Airi romance end, and even in retrospect, this scene sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
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Old 2011-12-10, 07:08   Link #963
ookamigirl
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I just love how this anime is relaxing & fun.
Still dealing with the kittens.
Sana sure has a big heart..
Nice, Shingo finally confessed & to Miu!
Thought Sana was more his type.
Poor Sana, I felt sorry for her...
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Old 2011-12-10, 09:17   Link #964
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I want to briefly revisit the Shingo/Airi bath scene, as upon further thought, this is one area where I continue to disagree with Relentlessflame.




I disagree. If major protagonists partake in actions that almost no viewer would be willing to, I think that runs the risk of severely undermining viewer suspension of disbelief, which is obviously not good for the show. Hence it is relevant to the show, imo.




Shingo was quite flustered at the idea of bathing with his sister. He was also flustered at the idea of bathing with Ange, IIRC. Within Shingo's context, his established characterization very much seems to run contrary to him actually suggesting that him and a teenage girl (that he has no romantic feelings for) bathe naked together as a form of compromise.

Given Shingo's overall characterization, I don't think that the Shingo/Airi bathing scene was reasonable at all, unless both sides had romantic feelings for one another. In other words, I think that this anime, as it currently stands, would have been better off without that scene. It's very understandable how that scene would lead people to suspect a Shingo/Airi romance end, and even in retrospect, this scene sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
The bathing had no impact/effect at all for their relation, because they never mentioned that scene again and the next day those 2 were acting like nothing has happened. Also the subject that they were talking about while in the bath was not even close of being romantic.
The only reason why they put in that scene is probably for
-extra fanservice: every girl besides Sana had one, unless you include Sana's picture with the Shingo kitten
-to make the end heroine less clear. Even the people who read the VN could not make out who the end heroine was untill episode 8.
-probably a nod for the people who read VN when there was such a scene, but the circumstances and subject that they were talking about were completely different in the VN though

I don't think that scene was necessary, but it had no impact for the plot in my opinion. If the next day Airi and Shingo were acting flustered around everyone, then that scene had effected the both of them but as i mentioned before they acted like nothing has happened.

edit: i am also looking forward to next week Nuko radio with Mayumi Yoshida as the guest.

Last edited by hyl; 2011-12-10 at 09:42. Reason: typo
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Old 2011-12-10, 09:53   Link #965
Vena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
The only reason why they put in that scene is probably for
-extra fanservice: every girl besides Sana had one, unless you include Sana's picture with the Shingo kitten
-to make the end heroine less clear. Even the people who read the VN could not make out who the end heroine was untill episode 8.
-probably a nod for the people who read VN when there was such a scene, but the circumstances and subject that they were talking about were completely different in the VN though

I don't think that scene was neccesary, but it had no impact for the plot in my opinion.
I think that's his point, the scene wasn't necessary and it serves as a disconnect of sorts from the overall narrative. The scene falls right in to the same fairly useless endeavor of throwing Ange into a towel with Sakuno along side her, the problem with the former to the latter is that the latter hadn't spent half of the show at the forefront. So if we're going to praise the show for being effective in its delivery of all other scenes, we should probably be rather questioning of things we see as disconnects. (Airi had given plenty of fanservice in the second episode.) I've said this before and I'll continue to say it, a scene or plot element with the purpose of hiding the actual plot is suspicious... unless Dr. Holmes is on the case.
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Old 2011-12-10, 10:06   Link #966
hyl
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People should not look at the bathing, but at what they have actually discussed. Which was in my opinion a big hint for the later episodes. (you probably have read my speculations about it in the games section)
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Old 2011-12-10, 12:10   Link #967
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I Don't Know....
am i the only one who just really didn't like how
Spoiler for episode:
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Old 2011-12-10, 12:17   Link #968
Guardian Enzo
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I certainly had the stock reaction to that bath scene, and maybe even the "desired" reaction if Relentless is right and it was partially there to throw the audience off the scent. But I can't help but wonder if there's a cultural aspect to some of the fan reaction to this.

I'm put in mind of another anime bath scene that was widely misinterpreted by fans, this one from Soredemo. Hotori and her brother Takeru (who's about 11) take a bath together after sneaking out to take a midnight stroll on a cold night. I remember a flood of posts from folks who were offended and thought it was a brocon, shotacon, etc. moment - when of course, it's perfectly natural in Japan for siblings to bathe together even at that age.

Now obviously the two situations aren't completely analogous, but I do think it's relevant that bathing has very different connotations in Japan than it does in the West, with roots leading right back to Shinto. In fact, I think you could even make a case that what the bathing scene ends up showing is that Shingo and Airi have grown increasingly comfortable in each other's presence, almost like "siblings" - and that there isn't much sexual tension.
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Old 2011-12-10, 12:36   Link #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Shingo was quite flustered at the idea of bathing with his sister. He was also flustered at the idea of bathing with Ange, IIRC. Within Shingo's context, his established characterization very much seems to run contrary to him actually suggesting that him and a teenage girl (that he has no romantic feelings for) bathe naked together as a form of compromise.

Given Shingo's overall characterization, I don't think that the Shingo/Airi bathing scene was reasonable at all, unless both sides had romantic feelings for one another.
That logic does not follow. If Shingo did not have any romantic feelings towards Sakuno and Ange, why would he be so flustered about going in the bath with them? If he did have undisclosed romantic feelings towards Airi, would he not have been even more hesitant and flustered to go into the bath with her? Note his reaction towards having seen Miu naked a few episodes later, who he did have a crush on; he didn't exactly take it in stride. There has to be a different reason why he was willing to go into the bath with Airi on this occasion, and why the other occasions were not acceptable.

The reason, suggested by the show, is that he thought it was necessary. Both were drenched by the rain and believed they were at risk of catching a cold unless they each got into a bath. Airi was not willing to let Shingo go without getting into the bath first. Shingo didn't consider it acceptable that he get in first before her, since then she could get sick. Hence they would both get in. Airi turned out the lights to reduce the risk of embarrassment. It was a logical compromise with no romantic intentions from Shingo's part. Of course, he was still embarrassed when Airi got in (she was naked after all), but the conversation that ensued and their attitude towards each afterwards suggest it had no deep meaning.

The previous times with Sakuno and again with Sakuno and Ange were unnecessary, unexpected, and in full light. He was embarrassed and considered their actions inappropriate (they were just trying to tease him/see him naked).

Of course, getting into a bath together is a sign of trust, and that Shingo and Airi trusted each other by that point is certain. But it's also a case of "desperate times call for desperate measures", whether you believe the situation was really that "desperate" or not. (Anime logic: soaking wet + no bath = certain illness)

Also, this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Now obviously the two situations aren't completely analogous, but I do think it's relevant that bathing has very different connotations in Japan than it does in the West, with roots leading right back to Shinto. In fact, I think you could even make a case that what the bathing scene ends up showing is that Shingo and Airi have grown increasingly comfortable in each other's presence, almost like "siblings" - and that there isn't much sexual tension.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say about the bath scene because I already talked about it a lot when episode 6 aired, and now a lot again now. If you're going to keep saying "oh it had to be romantic!" then we'll just disagree.
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Old 2011-12-10, 13:31   Link #970
Marina2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crackabad View Post
I Don't Know....
am i the only one who just really didn't like how
Spoiler for episode:

I see that many people don't understand this scene. Well, I don't surprise because it wasn't emphasize enough in anime.

Explanation: You know that one of reasons that Shingo like Miu is her kind/caring personality right? You can see that he have been praising her about them for many eps.

Now what Miu said in club room when they were alone (about when she first met Pannya and her plan to return Pannya back to the wild) was heavily emphasized Miu's kindness/care (In Shingo POV). That is why he can't hold his feeling anymore and decide to confess.

.................................................. ..............................................
.................................................. ..............................................

Oh yeah, It seems no one post these two scanlatons before.

Sad Sana (only click after watched ep.10), someone please tranlate the text on it
http://i.imgur.com/vjhGF.jpg

็Happy Sana
http://i.imgur.com/s26z3.jpg

Your choice!
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Last edited by Marina2; 2011-12-10 at 13:46. Reason: add more comments
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Old 2011-12-10, 13:48   Link #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I disagree. If major protagonists partake in actions that almost no viewer would be willing to, I think that runs the risk of severely undermining viewer suspension of disbelief, which is obviously not good for the show. Hence it is relevant to the show, imo.

Shingo was quite flustered at the idea of bathing with his sister. He was also flustered at the idea of bathing with Ange, IIRC. Within Shingo's context, his established characterization very much seems to run contrary to him actually suggesting that him and a teenage girl (that he has no romantic feelings for) bathe naked together as a form of compromise.

Given Shingo's overall characterization, I don't think that the Shingo/Airi bathing scene was reasonable at all, unless both sides had romantic feelings for one another. In other words, I think that this anime, as it currently stands, would have been better off without that scene. It's very understandable how that scene would lead people to suspect a Shingo/Airi romance end, and even in retrospect, this scene sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
I can't help but feel you are putting undue emphasis on the bathing scene for the wrong reasons, that being an emotional response to the fact they bathed together, without giving enough consideration to the events that lead to them sharing the bathtub. Stop looking at the scene in a superficial vacuum of your own choosing and rather stop to apply the reasoning of both characters that contributed to their decision to do so, and the post-effect it had on their relationship. Only by taking the whole picture in the account can you truly judge the implications of said event, and the full picture goes well beyond "But they shared a bath together!"

As relentless already pointed out, the Ange/Sakuno scene is of completely different nature, to compare them means ignoring the context. If you ignore the context, it's no surprise you would misinterpret Shingo's character. Don't think only about the characters and how they behaved in the respective events, but why they behaved the way they did. Ange and Sakuno wanted to get in there just because, and it came out of the blue. Airi's was a planned event by both parties, a compromise rationalized as necessity out of concern for their mutual health, bolstered by a hefty dose of stubbornness. Romantic implications don't even figure there. While it easily could have been used in such context indeed, that simply didn't end up being the case, neither prior or post the event itself. That was exactly the take-away one was supposed to derive from that scene, especially in the light of events that followed. It was exactly the realization Airi took from the scene.

And really, whether you could see yourself bathing with a close female without having romantic feelings for her isn't terribly relevant for Mashifoni. While it probably goes a long way towards being able to emphasize with the scene, that's not the lens it should be analyzed through. We are talking about Shingo here, not you (Though if we are on the subject, if I imagine myself being ~17 again, and a situation cropped up where a beautiful female friend is about to enter the bath with me out of health concerns, you bet my teenage mind wouldn't need a whole lot of prior romantic inclinations to accept the offer, and probably of motives far less pure than health concerns, even if it only meant getting an eyeful or two ), so the important part to understand here is Shingo's character and what prompts him to act the way he does.

Those reasons might be alien to you, as they are alien to me (I'm honestly nowhere near as self-sacrificing as Shingo), but that doesn't render them invalid. It's important to realize that not everyone thinks the same, and equally important to realize that different ways of thinking aren't less valid because of it. Take me, you and Shingo. You apparently can't think of entering a bath with a female without romantic implications, health or no health on the line. At the age our characters operate at, I would have been gleeful at the opportunity. Bless the rain and potential health issues for giving me the chance to do so! The concept of both absolutely needing romantic feelings to do so boggles me, but I respect you having said opinion. And Shingo reacts in another way entirely, putting the health concerns he has for Airi as first on the line.

Three different ways of thinking, but is any less valid or possible to have for being so ? Obviously not. Understandably the further someone else is from the line of your own reasoning, the more your ability to emphasize with them suffers (I think both of us serve as a good example here ), but that doesn't lessen the possibility of them acting in such a way (I mean, you clearly have a stance on the issue that I can't agree with nor imagine myself having, but that evidently hasn't stopped you from being here and having said position ). You aren't supposed to imagine Shingo as an extension of yourself and judge his actions in light of how you would have acted in such a situation. You simply get to follow his actions from afar, and in order to understand why he acts in certain ways you have to understand what makes him tick. Irregardless of whether you agree with his actions or not, that's not what character analysis is about.

Obviously bathing together means different things to you and Shingo, and the occurrence of said event has different prerequisites depending on each line of thought. But we are talking about Shingo here, so his actions should be judged in light of his own established personality traits and tendencies, not anyone's else, only that way can you understand what makes him tick and act the way he does. Given the emotional sentiment being placed on the strict fact they happened to share a bath, circumstances notwithstanding, I can't help but feel there is some mixing up of the two going on here.
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Old 2011-12-10, 14:21   Link #972
Tenchi Ryu
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I have a hard time understanding though why so many felt that bath scene was suppose to mean that much in the first place. Looking at it from a story telling point of view, maybe I could see why someone would jump to conclusions....but see, that's the problem. Once again people are trying yo use their common knowledge of past cliche tools to "crack" the ending before it even happened.

You have to look at it from Shingo's prospective. All he did was get in the bath (which he really didn't care for taking in the first place), and noticed a naked Airi get in with him, being pretty shocked. I don't see how this is suppose to relate to "official couple". Yea Airi liked him at this point, but there was still no indication that Shingo saw her in that light, and if anything, was going more so "WTF is she doing?". But I do commend him for going through with it as calm and mature as possible.
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Old 2011-12-10, 14:25   Link #973
RDF2050
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When did the bath scene happen (Episode)? I need to re-watch it just to understand the current discussion better.
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Old 2011-12-10, 14:29   Link #974
hyl
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Originally Posted by RDF2050 View Post
When did the bath scene happen (Episode)? I need to re-watch it just to understand the current discussion better.
At the end of episode 6
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Old 2011-12-10, 15:45   Link #975
Crackabad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
I see that many people don't understand this scene. Well, I don't surprise because it wasn't emphasize enough in anime.

Explanation: You know that one of reasons that Shingo like Miu is her kind/caring personality right? You can see that he have been praising her about them for many eps.

Now what Miu said in club room when they were alone (about when she first met Pannya and her plan to return Pannya back to the wild) was heavily emphasized Miu's kindness/care (In Shingo POV). That is why he can't hold his feeling anymore and decide to confess.

.................................................. ..............................................
.................................................. ..............................................

Oh yeah, It seems no one post these two scanlatons before.

Sad Sana (only click after watched ep.10), someone please tranlate the text on it
http://i.imgur.com/vjhGF.jpg

็Happy Sana
http://i.imgur.com/s26z3.jpg

Your choice!
ok, ur rite.
the whole pannya explanation makes it more understandable for me.
thanks for pointing that out
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Old 2011-12-10, 16:13   Link #976
DasDingus
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Regarding Airi's "tsundere-ism"... I can't really call her a tsundere character because that was just a fašade. She had actual reasons for being standoff-ish that were developed and resolved, and now her behaviour has reverted to its normal state (shown at the beginning of the anime). She wasn't being "bitchy" to Shingo particularly to cover up romantic feelings towards him (though she did see him as a bit different than the other guys). And as her "true self", she's still strong-willed and easily-embarrassed (not just deredere all the time), but the temporary standoff-ish nature is gone.
It seems to me that using the standoff-ish tsuntsun nature as facade is the essence of what a tsundere is. The tsuntsun is used because the tsundere feels that he/she should be hostile to this person for whatever reason even if that hostility doesn't represent his/her true feelings. It doesn't matter that Airi's "true state" doesn't involve the tsuntsun behavior. If the tsuntsun behavior is the tsundere's true nature and not just a facade then the character goes, in my mind, from being a tsundere into being just a jerk. In Airi's case she puts on that hostile act because she feels that's her responsibility to the school to protect her fellow students from what she sees as a threat. Once she realizes that act was pointless she drops it and makes the tsun to dere transformation thus making her a tsundere.

Quote:
So I guess I'd say she was showing some "tsundere-like tendencies" in the early days, but she's not really a "tsundere character" if you ask me. I'd say Sana, on the other hand, is a tsundere character.
I feel like you're equating tsundere = "modern tsundere" while Airi is a classic/traditional tsundere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VNDB description of classic tsundere
Starts tsuntsun (cranky, violent and possibly violent) towards the protagonist (and possibly everyone else), due to some reason or another, and over the course of the game falls in love with him/turns deredere (lovestruck) .

While tsuntsun and deredere might conflict, this phase will be over after a short while and progress into straight deredere.
(http://vndb.org/g194)

I feel like that's a good description of Airi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VNDB description of modern tsundere
She has one side that is utterly deredere (lovestruck) towards the protagonist (and possibly everyone else).

She has another one that is extremely hostile towards the protagonist (and/or everyone else) and which often will use extreme violence towards him.

She's switch between those two frequently. Expect 2-3 switches within one minute at worst.
(http://vndb.org/g193)

Whereas this would be a better description of Sana.
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Old 2011-12-10, 16:54   Link #977
hyl
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There is one problem when calling Airi an actual tsundere, Airi didn't start tsun tsun towards Shingo. When they first encountered, she was nice and polite to him.
If their next encounter would not have been at Yujio as students, then i am sure that she would never acted that way towards Shingo to begin with.
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Old 2011-12-10, 17:05   Link #978
Vena
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I'm just humoring my nature by playing some devil's advocate. My stance on this issue is neutrality in general as my overall criticisms are aimed at other parts/decisions made when telling the story, though this particular discussion does tie into part of my criticism but is certainly not limited to only it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
I have a hard time understanding though why so many felt that bath scene was suppose to mean that much in the first place. Looking at it from a story telling point of view, maybe I could see why someone would jump to conclusions....but see, that's the problem. Once again people are trying yo use their common knowledge of past cliche tools to "crack" the ending before it even happened.
Remember, though, that conventions exist because they have shown to be tried and true methods of good story telling, or at the very least passable as methods of driving a story towards some conclusion. You cannot fault people for having used them when analyzing. (What you could criticize is when people say, without even a remotely well constructed and defended reason: "It didn't go way X, it can't be/isn't good.", but no one is really saying that here.) The issue that seems to be at the core of this is that, on a first watch and without knowing what comes later be it from the game or from watching the following episodes, the event is ambiguous and can easily be misconstrued (and has nothing in it on its own, the scene in and of itself, that necessarily precludes any possibility, leaving the dependence of conclusiveness (basically the answer to the question: "What did it mean?") to later scenes *not* occurring). Later, the issue isn't so much addressed directly but is instead left for an audience member to look back and say: "Oh, so that's what it meant." But, naturally, not everyone draws the same parallels or meanings from a scene be it from a bias, preference, or because of their dependence/comfort with convention, and this is made worse by the scene being fairly ambiguous and, as I said, dependent on later scenes *not* occurring. The way the scene was portrayed we could have just as easily branched into Airi's route had it been mentioned in the subsequent episode in some *this is embarrassing* way.

So, by using such "throw off" methods of obfuscating your plot's aim, you put yourself between a rock and a hard place for many people. It just isn't a necessary scene, for what it is worth, and could have been handled any number of other ways. You ask why do people jump to conclusions, I ask why was the scene *built* such that people could jump to conclusions? (Because, as reactions show, people have and continue to jump to conclusions on the smallest of things. Look at how Ange was handled, hardly anyone, if anyone at all, jumped to conclusions on that because it was presented and concluded fairly quickly and fully, even if it was sort of out of left field when it came up.) The issue that is raised then is that we'd have known where the plot was going but I'm still left asking why this would be a bad thing. Why must the plot be hidden behind vague allusions to other plots, this isn't a mystery novel or story.

The scene is vague, the discussion about the scene when the episode aired shows this and the many interpretations available to just a few minutes of an episode, all depending on a number of factors: expectations, analysis, depth of knowledge, and so on.
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Old 2011-12-10, 17:24   Link #979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DasDingus View Post
I feel like you're equating tsundere = "modern tsundere" while Airi is a classic/traditional tsundere.

(http://vndb.org/g194)

I feel like that's a good description of Airi.
Yes, I understand that there are those two different definitions of tsundere, but I don't think she's even totally true to the "classic" definition because of what hyl said above (she didn't start out tsuntsun, and it only happened at school) and that falling in love with the protagonist isn't what made her change (it was having her secret exposed and having a bunch of friends who accepted her). I guess it's kind of similar, and if you really want to see it that way, I don't really have a problem with it. But when you're talking about tsundere characters in anime, the "modern" definition is what most people are talking about, as most were not familiar with the trope before anime made it popular. So to most anime audiences I would say "she's not really a tsundere" because there's a lot more nuance to her behaviour, and it doesn't all revolve around "I'm being mean to you to cover up my feelings for you".

At the end of the day, I guess I'd say that I'd prefer for people to judge Airi as a complete character in her own right, and not just try to squeeze all her personality into a category or box. I think she's more complicated than any one label can fully convey.
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Old 2011-12-10, 18:32   Link #980
DasDingus
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@relentlessflame

I agree that there is more nuance to Airi's character than a single label/category can convey. I just personally find it useful to have a broad definition of tsundere. To me, any character that is at one point openly hostile and then later becomes lovestruck is, at least on some level, a tsundere. After that you can talk about classic vs modern, weak vs strong, physically abusive vs verball abusive etc etc. Obviously not all tsunderes are created equal characters like Airi and Sana can be very different while both being tsunderes. I guess at the end of the day I'd say that if you have to put Airi in a category it's "classic tsundere" and you can either, like me, choose to do that or, like you, choose not to do that but we both acknowledge that the label is not sufficient to completely define what makes Airi Airi.
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