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Old 2011-12-10, 18:55   Link #981
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
I think that's his point, the scene wasn't necessary and it serves as a disconnect of sorts from the overall narrative.
Yes, that's much of my point, thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That logic does not follow.
Yes, it does follow, at least for me. I'm now going to delve into why it follows.


Quote:
If Shingo did not have any romantic feelings towards Sakuno and Ange, why would he be so flustered about going in the bath with them?
Why do male anime characters almost always blush and/or get flustered when they see a female anime character naked, unless they're in an established relationship with her?

Personally, I've always interpreted such scenes as the male character realizing that his society deems it inappropriate for him to see the female character naked unless they're in a romantic and/or sexual relationship together. Ergo, she may yell at him and/or hit him to express outrage over the situation. By extension, this is why he'll typically just take the abuse without arguing back or even defending himself in some instances.

This is quite possibly the oldest anime trope in the book.

The exceptions to it are, of course, when the male and female anime pair are in a romantic/sexual relationship together and/or are in the process of creating such a relationship.

Shingo's reaction to Ange and Sakuno wanting to bathe with him is very much in line with this ageless anime trope, and so that scene becomes a bit of a nod to the viewer that Shingo will be reflective of male anime characters in general when it comes to ageless tropes like this one.

So when Shingo and Airi agree to bathe naked together, over a rather flimsy pretext, it naturally conveys the notion that the two are developing romantically with one another.

Seriously, who would agree to bathe naked with someone for such a pretext as very mild health concerns arising from being drenched in the rain, unless the whole point is in fact a more basic desire to bathe with that person due to romantic and/or sexual attraction?

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that line of thinking. I literally know nobody who would bathe naked with someone purely because they've both been drenched in the rain and could use a warm bath soon. I respect that different people can have different ways of thinking, but there are practical limits to this, particularly as viewer suspension of disbelief in concerned.


Quote:
If he did have undisclosed romantic feelings towards Airi, would he not have been even more hesitant and flustered to go into the bath with her?
Not if she was cool with the idea. Then it's believable that he might see this as a means to grow closer to her, and develop a relationship with her.


Quote:
Note his reaction towards having seen Miu naked a few episodes later, who he did have a crush on; he didn't exactly take it in stride.
Because he had yet to confess to her. Now that he's confessed to her, do you think he'll continue to have such reactions to seeing Miu naked, or do you think he'll eventually come to accept it over time as part and parcel of having a romantic/sexual relationship with someone?


Quote:
The reason, suggested by the show, is that he thought it was necessary.
And I simply don't buy that.


Quote:
Airi turned out the lights to reduce the risk of embarrassment. It was a logical compromise with no romantic intentions from Shingo's part.
No, it was silly. There would be no serious harm in one person waiting a few minutes for the other one to have a bath first.


Quote:

Of course, getting into a bath together is a sign of trust, and that Shingo and Airi trusted each other by that point is certain. But it's also a case of "desperate times call for desperate measures", whether you believe the situation was really that "desperate" or not. (Anime logic: soaking wet + no bath = certain illness)
I reject "anime logic" in this instance for the simple reason that this anime has been admirably "keeping it real", as I've mentioned before. Basically, I expect more from this show than the sillier instances of "anime logic". That's a credit to this show, but it also means that this show has, in my view, built an identity for itself that simply doesn't flow well with the sillier instances of "anime logic".

You know how some people find it hard to square Guilty Crown's realistic setting with its more extreme "Rule of Cool" moments, and at times campy atmosphere? Likewise, the sillier moments in Mashiro-iro Symphony often seem out of place to me given how appreciably realistic the anime's narrative, characters, and character relationships are overall.

Now, while these issues with Guilty Crown aren't issues for everyone (they aren't for me, for example), I can understand and respect why they would be issues for some people. Likewise, I hope that you and Skyfall and others can at least understand and respect why some "anime logic" scenes in Mashiro-iro Symphony is an issue for me and some other viewers.

What works in a gag comedy doesn't necessarily work in a more serious and realistic show, if you catch my drift.


Aside from all of that, let me just say that I agree with much of what Vena has wrote on the topic.
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Old 2011-12-10, 19:16   Link #982
novalysis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

So when Shingo and Airi agree to bathe naked together, over a rather flimsy pretext, it naturally conveys the notion that the two are developing romantically with one another.

Seriously, who would agree to bathe naked with someone for such a pretext as very mild health concerns arising from being drenched in the rain, unless the whole point is in fact a more basic desire to bathe with that person due to romantic and/or sexual attraction?

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that line of thinking. I literally know nobody who would bathe naked with someone purely because they've both been drenched in the rain and could use a warm bath soon. I respect that different people can have different ways of thinking, but there are practical limits to this, particularly as viewer suspension of disbelief in concerned.




Not if she was cool with the idea. Then it's believable that he might see this as a means to grow closer to her, and develop a relationship with her.

I think I will jump in on this discussion here.

Note that Shingo was not the one to initiate the bath-scene - it was Airi instead. I interpret this scene as a subtle attempt by Airi to force the issue on her feelings , with regards to Shingo. The aftermath was about as polite a manner as Shingo could to reject her without saying it outright.

The way I see it , what Airi was hinting, either consciously , or sub-consciously at Shingo in this scene was that she would have been perfectly ready if Shingo wished to take their relationship out of the friendzone. Notice that this scene is essentially the climax of Airi's focus in the story. After that , the attention shifts almost completely to Miu and Sana.

Now , it's been established that Shingo is extremely socially perspective , and most likely picked up the subtle hint. The very fact that everything returned to the status quo after that scene , instead of a chain of events leading up to a confession is another very subtle way for the writers to demonstrate that in effect , Shingo has "friend-zoned" Airi. In other words , this was an entirely in-character way for Shingo to indirectly reject Airi .

So yes , the Bath Scene to me was both a red-herring , and a masterful way of demonstrating that Shingo is not interested in Airi in any romantic sense , since he chooses to ignore the signals that Airi has sent to him , culminating in that scene.

It could easily have been different of course - if Shingo had chosen to reciprocate , no doubt we'll be on the Airi route right now.

In essence , this is the scene marking the end of the line for Airi's development. By choosing to ignore that scene , and behave as if nothing had happened , Shingo had basically essentially rejected Airi in the most private ,and polite way he could.

As for Sana. I personally feel her character has been very shoddily handed. Ironically , my sympathies were highest for her before her sudden transformation into a caricature of Tsunderes in episode 4 (if I remember correctly). Seriously , had she not perform a 360 sweep with her character , I think we'll be on the Sana route.

Oh Sana. You've given us something rarely seen in this genre. Tsunderes deconstructed.

*Flees to avoid a Stoning by Sana fans*
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Old 2011-12-10, 19:42   Link #983
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
I think I will jump in on this discussion here.

Note that Shingo was not the one to initiate the bath-scene - it was Airi instead. I interpret this scene as a subtle attempt by Airi to force the issue on her feelings , with regards to Shingo. The aftermath was about as polite a manner as Shingo could to reject her without saying it outright.

The way I see it , what Airi was hinting, either consciously , or sub-consciously at Shingo in this scene was that she would have been perfectly ready if Shingo wished to take their relationship out of the friendzone. Notice that this scene is essentially the climax of Airi's focus in the story. After that , the attention shifts almost completely to Miu and Sana.

Now , it's been established that Shingo is extremely socially perspective , and most likely picked up the subtle hint. The very fact that everything returned to the status quo after that scene , instead of a chain of events leading up to a confession is another very subtle way for the writers to demonstrate that in effect , Shingo has "friend-zoned" Airi. In other words , this was an entirely in-character way for Shingo to indirectly reject Airi .

So yes , the Bath Scene to me was both a red-herring , and a masterful way of demonstrating that Shingo is not interested in Airi in any romantic sense , since he chooses to ignore the signals that Airi has sent to him , culminating in that scene.

I think that you're right about Airi. I think that this was her way of trying to move her relationship with Shingo into a more romantic/sexual direction.

But here's the problem I have then: If Shingo was picking up on that, then it would have been best for him to reject the move in question. In other words, to reject the suggestion of bathing with her. That would have made it crystal clear to her that there are certain boundaries in their relationship, and that Shingo isn't interested in her as more than a friend.

From Airi's perspective, him agreeing to bathe naked with her could easily be interpreted as him going along with her desire to shift the nature of their relationship.

I don't think that Shingo is the sort of person to knowingly send mixed messages to other people like that.
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Old 2011-12-10, 19:43   Link #984
Tenchi Ryu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
I think I will jump in on this discussion here.

Note that Shingo was not the one to initiate the bath-scene - it was Airi instead. I interpret this scene as a subtle attempt by Airi to force the issue on her feelings , with regards to Shingo. The aftermath was about as polite a manner as Shingo could to reject her without saying it outright.

The way I see it , what Airi was hinting, either consciously , or sub-consciously at Shingo in this scene was that she would have been perfectly ready if Shingo wished to take their relationship out of the friendzone. Notice that this scene is essentially the climax of Airi's focus in the story. After that , the attention shifts almost completely to Miu and Sana.
Exactly, the way I see it, the bath scene was ENTIRELY coming from Airi....and like you said, she was basically putting herself on the table. Shingo did not accept her gesture, so she's just been nicely friendzoned at this point. She even hinted that she cried over it for a little while and eventually got over him. So it does make sense why she's not the being centered on anymore, she pretty much lost.
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Old 2011-12-10, 19:47   Link #985
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
Exactly, the way I see it, the bath scene was ENTIRELY coming from Airi....and like you said, she was basically putting herself on the table. Shingo did not accept her gesture,
But that's the thing: He did accept her gesture. He did bathe with her. That's the whole problem here for some viewers, including myself.

Rejecting her gesture would logically mean rejecting the suggestion to bathe with her.
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Old 2011-12-10, 19:55   Link #986
hyl
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Like skyfall has said: would you reject someone like Airi the offer to take a bath together with you? Romantic or not, i wouldn't refuse though.
Also Shingo might not have thought that it was romantic gesture seeing that Airi only asked about why Shingo did not invite her to the nukobu. After his response Airi realized that Shingo is "that kind of person". Which in my opinion the answer to her thoughts that "Shingo might be different" from episode 5.
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Old 2011-12-10, 20:07   Link #987
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Likewise, I hope that you and Skyfall and others can at least understand and respect why this is an issue for me and some other viewers.
I think that you and "some other viewers" are forcing your own opinions/perspectives on the anime which has itself provided other answers and explanations. I personally think doing this is rather pointless. I'm not going to stop you from doing it, and I can't stop it from being a problem for you, but I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. At this point, I think you're debating for the sake of debating.

The anime's internal logic is fairly clean-cut and adequately explains all the developments that transpired in the show, at least as far as this event is concerned. Whether you should have had the foresight to understand that when Episode 6 aired is debatable, but surely now you can look back and see things in context to figure out what it meant. If you think that the anime's rationale is insufficient/deficient, then I guess let that be a point you judge the show against in the end. I personally don't have a problem with the show's logic on this point. I would have gotten in the bath if I believed it was important enough, as Shingo did. So... I think we should just let this issue go. We're not getting any closer to an understanding and just going around in circles.
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Old 2011-12-10, 20:28   Link #988
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Oh man, this episode was heart-breaking... I hated Sana at first but grew to like her quite a bit. It hurts to see her that sad T_T...

So next episode seems to be the last... I wonder if it'll make a 180... or it'll just wrap everything up. To be honest, if going by the first half of the series, I woulda never expected Miu to be the "winner" If anything Airi was the most "expected" heroine of the series.
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Old 2011-12-10, 21:55   Link #989
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But that's the thing: He did accept her gesture. He did bathe with her. That's the whole problem here for some viewers, including myself.

Rejecting her gesture would logically mean rejecting the suggestion to bathe with her.
But the most important thing from that bath scene is when she asks why he didn't invite her to the club. And he says that no matter how much he cares about the club, he'd never invite her because of how she is around animals.

And then as he's walking home she says "you're just that kind of guy."

By the way, that smile that she has on her face is bittersweet at best after hearing his answer. It tells her that he's considerate about her feelings in a general way, but he won't rely on her because he views her the same as any other person.

From everything going on in that scene, I think that tells her that he's not interested in her as anything beyond a friend. That bittersweet smile on her face along with the "you're just that kind of guy" statement told me that she believed she had been friendzoned.

He stayed in the bath because she came in and put herself there. He's not one of those hyperactive male leads that has nosebleeds and goes crazy around any kind of ecchi situation. He knew that he wasn't going to do anything untoward in that kind of situation, and he respected her enough to believe that she wouldn't have done anything. If either of those wasn't true, he probably would have bailed on the situation. The same goes for her, if she thought he would do anything, she wouldn't have put herself in that situation, but she already suspected that he wasn't asking her to join the kitty club because of her animal problems.

And she already was in love with him, acknowledging in episode 3 that he made her feel differently than other boys did, so that was the most appropriate way for her to try to confirm the kitty club non-invite in an intimate way.

I think any reaction out of him other than to stay in the bath would have cheapened the effect of her questioning him about the kitty club because it would have showed that he didn't trust himself or her to not do anything...
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Old 2011-12-11, 01:54   Link #990
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Not only that , but he was a guest of Airi's house. I doubt it would have been polite for him to deny her. So his lack of protestations is understandable , in my view. Objecting would have been OOC for him.

This was Airi's house , and if she wanted to get into the same bath as him (and due to the same logic she used to get Shingo into the bath) , he could hardly say no reasonably , could he? He seemed quite uncomfortable after all in that scene, but it'll be reasonable to conjecture that he knew what subtle message Airi was trying to send, and came up with an equally subtle way to signal his rejection.

Of course , by this episode , Airi's lost has been confirmed - like the viewers , she probably held up hope for a turn around of sorts.

Really , this story can be divided into three parts. Shingo's orientation into the new School , Airi's aborted route , and Miu's Route with Sana getting her heart broken. Airi's route ended when the bath scene failed to trigger any developments (in other words , it was Airi's flag , but it was a failed flag , rejected by the protagonist ). Miu's route begun with the Nuko club , and both routes overlapped slightly.

In a way , it's refreshing to see a proactive harem protagonist. I think we as viewers are too used to assuming that male harem protagonist tend to be passive with regards to the Flags raised by members of the harem , and that they don't have a choice to proactively reject flags. We are conditioned to think that way , so Shingo is a breath of fresh air , since he does take a proactive role in rejecting flags , and even initiating a few , to use Galge terms.

The big mistake is to see Shingo as a passive protagonist. He is anything but that , and this is sufficient to make labeling him a generic harem protagonist quite unjust. It's the same as calling Airi just a Tsundere. No , she's a Tsundere , yes , in the classic sense , but that's just one dimension in her character . In the same way , Shingo is your nice guy (or a parody thereof , whichever floats your boat) , but that's not all to him too.

The other thing that's refreshing is just how socially aware most of the characters are . Ironically , I'd say the least socially aware members of Shingo's "harem" (note that I am reluctant to leave it as that) are Angie , and ironically , Sana.

Speaking of which , why did Sana's character underwent a 360 degrees switch? She came off a as a rather mature and confident young women , during the first few episodes , then turned into raging , and even spiteful at times Tsundere after the first big Shingo-Miu flag.

Sana's very fears turned into self-fulfilling prophecy. The more Tsun she is , the more likely it was that Shingo would have ended with Miu. She essentially lost at the very moment she beat up Shingo for talking to Miu.

So yes , Sana is Tsundere deconstruction. Why she suppressed her man-hating tendencies in the first place , and how she developed it is a mystery - unless I understand that , I find it hard to sympathize with her.

If you want a Sana end , you'll need her not to go bonkers during her first Tsun scene. By the time Airi was rejected , Sana had no chance at all , no matter what the shippers might claim.

Bravo Shingo. You actually managed to masterfully deconstruct the very idea of Tsundere. Mashiro-iro a breath of fresh-air after the Tsundere spam that post-Clannad harem seemed to have been obsessed with. The only problem is that both you and the winning girl share one big potential weakness in common- both of you care for others to the point you might neglect yourself. Of course , that's also a strength ironically.

However, I did like Airi's character alot, and could possibly comprehend her motives better , so were it Airi who was crying on screen , my empathy would have went out to her far more that it did went out to Sana. Even if visually , the producers did a good job in making us feel Sana's pain.

They should have gone Amangi SS on us , IMHO.
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Old 2011-12-11, 06:11   Link #991
Qikz
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I'm not sure if people have said this, but is anyone else happy that there's finally been a VN Adaptation where the protagonist actually confesses to somebody? Admittedly you've got like Yosuga no Sora and Amagami but they followed a different format. Miu <3
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Old 2011-12-11, 06:41   Link #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But that's the thing: He did accept her gesture. He did bathe with her. That's the whole problem here for some viewers, including myself.

Rejecting her gesture would logically mean rejecting the suggestion to bathe with her.
Actually he was already in the bath butt naked when Airi came in moments ltr also completely naked.

He didn't really accept any suggestion. It was kinda forced onto him. Though i guess he could have ran out of the toilet/request for Airi to get out , but that wouldn't make much sense.

The way i see the bathe scene on Shingo & Airi together is more of a lil Fan-service for the viewers in a mild way.
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Old 2011-12-11, 07:28   Link #993
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What,you guys haven't finish the discussion in this topic yet???

Anyway, there is a leak information of Ep.11 - 12 come out

Spoiler for ep 11- 12 information (japanese,need a translation!):


From http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-5841.html
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Old 2011-12-11, 07:42   Link #994
xKeir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
What,you guys haven't finish the discussion in this topic yet???

Anyway, there is a leak information of Ep.11 - 12 come out

Spoiler for ep 11- 12 information (japanese,need a translation!):


From http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-5841.html
From using Google Chrome Auto Translation -

Spoiler for Possbility of whats on EP11:


Guess it won't work using just a translation.
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Old 2011-12-11, 07:53   Link #995
Magicmonkeyman
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post

Sad Sana (only click after watched ep.10), someone please tranlate the text on it
http://i.imgur.com/vjhGF.jpg
My japanese (especially kanji) isn't the best but here goes!

"something thoughts, the feelings that could not said
and the girl is slowly becoming an adult" ????
Damn i can understand it hard to put into words
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Old 2011-12-11, 09:39   Link #996
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Wow impressive how much traffic this show can produce despite some claims that reasons for specualtions are settled.

I still expect some lovey-dovey time from our fresh couple.
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Old 2011-12-11, 10:13   Link #997
usspaul
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im not a good poster so i try not to post much, but i have to say i really do love this show. i really do like all the charaters in this show. Airi is a very nice girl and is very beautiful, Mui is also a very sweet girl and her quirks are cute as hell, not to mention i just really like her. Sana i had mix feelings about when she did that 180 on us but you just cant really hate her no matter what. Angie is well Angie and she good in her own way. Sakuno well she that cute little sister though i wish we had gotten a little more from her but im okey with what we did get. Im always checking up on this thread and always thinking about this show more then the other this season. yeah well i will just go back to doing what im good at by lurking and posting images lol hope you all like btw just click image to get bigger image


Spoiler for nsfw:

Last edited by usspaul; 2011-12-11 at 10:27.
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Old 2011-12-11, 11:42   Link #998
Mahou
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
What,you guys haven't finish the discussion in this topic yet???

Anyway, there is a leak information of Ep.11 - 12 come out

Spoiler for ep 11- 12 information (japanese,need a translation!):


From http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-5841.html
Spoiler for Ep. 11 - 12:
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Old 2011-12-12, 02:07   Link #999
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by Qikz View Post
I'm not sure if people have said this, but is anyone else happy that there's finally been a VN Adaptation where the protagonist actually confesses to somebody? Admittedly you've got like Yosuga no Sora and Amagami but they followed a different format. Miu <3
While I'm sure there have been a few (very few... too few!) of those, the occurrences are so rare it's indeed a welcome deviation from the norm. In the vast majority of cases any and all romantic initiatives are in the hands of the female side of the cast, the male lead just strung along with the currents until finally managing to muster a decision by the time the show ends (if the anime gods and constellations favor us). A protagonist who actually knows what he wants, and is the first among cast to push the envelope on said issue ... yeah, we don't get many of those.

The last one of this rare mold that I can recall from the top of my head is Haruhiko from Gift ~Eternal Rainbow~ (Unless we count Clannad, but that's a bit of a different beast) ... and considering that show aired 5 years ago, I guess that serves to prove the point of the rarity of these. If there is one thing Shingo will be worth remembering for, it's going to be exactly that - being among the very few male leads who aren't indecisive and actually have their own feelings figured out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usspaul View Post
Spoiler for nsfw:
What can I say ... Shingo is a lucky bastard indeed
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Old 2011-12-12, 08:16   Link #1000
Vena
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The last one of this rare mold that I can recall from the top of my head is Haruhiko from Gift ~Eternal Rainbow~ (Unless we count Clannad, but that's a bit of a different beast) ... and considering that show aired 5 years ago, I guess that serves to prove the point of the rarity of these. If there is one thing Shingo will be worth remembering for, it's going to be exactly that - being among the very few male leads who aren't indecisive and actually have their own feelings figured out.
Fortune arterial wasn't that long ago, and that resolved itself well before the final arc.
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