Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vanish

You mean kuudere.

Yes, thanks for the correction. I confused the two temporarily there.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Zaresh

Well... Wait, what?!

He's not eating himself. He, like a cannibal farmer, is planting seeds in innocent girls, lying through omission to them, and for the sole purpose to eat their seeds when those little magical girls (who, we must don't forget had lost their natural bodies. But, nevermind...) become mad, crazy evil, breaking their lifes, forever. And for hunting them, he pacts with more little innocent girls, lying through omission once again I must say, little girls who, eventualy, will become witches who he's going to hunt and whose seeds he is going to eat again. Basicaly, he's farming and sacrificing little innocent girls for feeding himself.

If that's not evil enough to call it evil, what is it?

That's pretty much how I read Kyubei's motivations, too. Of course he might have a more advanced endgame plan, which is why Madoka might be so important for him to turn. Or she might just look like a really delicious future happymeal for him, take your pick.

[RiderLeangle]

OK show of hands here.. How many of you have been speculating all these things that this episode proved true?
^(o_o)v

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: Also, on an "outside the canon" level, it's important to remember that this show is still an anime, made primarily for anime fans. Homura is clearly designed to appeal to yandere fans, lol. Indeed, she might be the most memorable yandere I've seen.

Well besides the Kudere edit another poster mentioned...

Sure, you're not wrong in a general sense, but at least they didn't copy and paste archetypes. The characters aren't 2d like so many animes out there right now.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, thanks for the correction. I confused the two temporarily there.

Someone closer to yandere in this show would be Sayaka. If she decides to target Kamijou in her rampage of anger and despair.

[totoum]

Mentar brings up some great points

Originally Posted by Mentar

1) Sayaka said that happiness and despair balance themselves out in the life of a MG. The happiness she brings on one end causes despair on hers. If this is true (and it was a repeated line), just think what it would mean to a particularly _powerful_ girl like Madoka who'd try her hardest to help others. It must be living hell.

Just to add to this,a quote by homura from episode 4 "You're too kind,don't forget that kindness may bring upon you greater tragedy"

My gut feeling indicates that the current timeline might have played out in the past before, and Homura has done just what she is trying now before: Maybe in earlier iterations, she has told Madoka the truth, but Madoka didn't believe her (remember the scene from ep7 where she gave Homura the same explanation? "People" didn't believe her). So this time she's trying to prevent Madoka from contracting WITHOUT prematurely spilling the beans.

The "people" quote has me thinking the same thing,it's not like Homura travels around the country from town to town warning people about the MG system,so I do think that the "people" in question were Madoka and co in another timeline.Same about seeing countless number of people die,it could be she's lost count on how many times she's had a go at changing things.

And Madoka's nature might very well cause her to sacrifice herself open-eyed to help others (this is what caused Homura to despair this ep - I think she has seen it happen before).

I think that's pretty much what she says when she told Madoka : "Why do you always sacrifice yourself?",the "always" makes it sound like this is far from the first time she accepts a contract..

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Well besides the Kudere edit another poster mentioned...

Sure, you're not wrong in a general sense, but at least they didn't copy and paste archetypes. The characters aren't 2d like so many animes out there right now.

I didn't say it to be critical.

An anime with no archetype influence at all would be nigh-impossible, and possibly risking commercial suicide.


However, one thing I like about this anime is that there's no tsundere here. That's a real change of pace. One I can deeply appreciate after recently watching Ore no Imouto.

Also, Sayaka is one of the more original characters I've seen in awhile. She certainly doesn't comfortably fit into any prominent anime archetype that I can think of off-hand.

[hardworkgenius]

Hi guys! This is my first post on this forum, I have lurked around a lot, however this anime motivated me to contribute to the discussion of this anime.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, a lot of your observations depends on the exact nature of Homura's backstory, which is still clouded somewhat in mystery.

If Homura is just a magical girl who was close to Madoka at one time, and Madoka no longer remembers her (for some reason), then yes, her overall approach is questionable, and somewhat creepy.

However, it seems increasingly likely to me that Homura has seen these events pass by before, and tried to prevent a disastrous end before. Basically, that time travel and/or time reset is at play here. Homura may have tried a "gentler/softer" approach before, but that may have got her nowhere. So now she's trying a much more ruthless approach.

If so, her approach might not say a lot about her core personality.

For example, until this episode, Homura had been pretty stern to everyone, including Madoka. I think this is the first episode where we see Homura actually break down and shed tears for someone. Who knows what she's bottling up inside under a tough facade?


Edit: Also, on an "outside the canon" level, it's important to remember that this show is still an anime, made primarily for anime fans. Homura is clearly designed to appeal to yandere fans, lol. Indeed, she might be the most memorable yandere I've seen.

I agree with the statement that the events occurring right now may have happened before, but not exactly the same events but lead up to the same outcome, Madoka becoming a magical girl.

since most of you guys have pointed out what I had on my mind when I watched ep.8 regarding the QB, Homerun, and Madoka. I just wanted to pitch in my take of the possible backstory of Homerun or "one" of the timelines, since this could've happened many times ( the time travel I mean, not the current events).

Homura's Power:

What I wanted to point out was the passive benefit of making wish and its effect on the Magical Girl who made it. Flashback to the fight between sayaka and Kyoko, when sayaka was dealt that deadly blow, according to Kyoko should have left her out of commission for a while, got back up on her feet. QB goes on to say that due to her wish of her wanting her friend to be cured, she gained the ability to regenerate quickly, kinda like Wolverine's healing factor. I know I may be going out there. But I think Homerun's ability to manipulate time (which was shown when evading the monster in the Mami fight, catching up to the truck, and ep.8 the attack on QB) is her passive ability due to a wish she made.

the wish:
like many have pointed out probably involves madoka. I will go out on a limb and say she may have wished to go back in time to before Madoka made the decision. Instead of outright wishing for it not to happen I believe she might have wanted to "guide" Madoka. It would be wrong and naive to want to change a persons fate
for selfish reasons, whether it be good or bad. I think this leads to her breakdown in the episode, because past events are about to happen again.

The outcome of a past-time line:
basically, madoka makes the decision, bad things happen Homura witnesses the tragedy, wants to change it without taking direct control but allowing free-will, but she cannot handle the final boss (Walpurgisnacht) alone and leads into pretty much Madoka's dream. Repeat that with different variations and you have the current time-line. Kinda reminds me of season 2 of "Higurashi"

[ars89]

Yes!, Sayaka's finally gone! At least she realized at the end that she was a fool. So she turned into a witch right?

Awesome how Homura shot up Kyuube, too bad he didn't die. Also him eating his old corpse was funny. So he's really the Incubator? Wonder what that is. Too bad he figured out that Homura isn't from this time.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: Also, on an "outside the canon" level, it's important to remember that this show is still an anime, made primarily for anime fans. Homura is clearly designed to appeal to yandere fans, lol. Indeed, she might be the most memorable yandere I've seen.

I wouldn't quiet call her a yandere. While she does have killing intent, it's not grounded in jealousy or resentment. She's just kind of naturally cold / aloof, but it's very clear she cares.

x dere wouldn't apply here as must of the time the terms are used for interactions between individuals of romantic interest.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Xacual

I still want to say that I believe that if Homura has gone back in time once, then this isn't the first time she has done it and since she always ends up in alternate timelines the differences between her original timeline and the new ones always cause her to make new mistakes or just not to expect things to happen.

Also I was thinking about this but QB could have started the entire cycle by himself, all he had to do was to grant a few miracles, those girls would have gotten powers but there weren't any witches so they slowly darkened and became the first witches then after that QB could start recruiting girls to fight those witches. Also if at anytime his mahou shoujo defeated all the witches they'd just eventually darken and become a new set of witches themselves. This operates on the idea that the soul gem darkens even without being used for magic because Sayaka was using some but she was also just walking around so I assume there is a built in mechanic to stop them from just sitting at home not doing anything and being fine.

I agree the time circle theory got a boost this ep. The sentence where Kyubei admits that Madoka's immense power makes no sense may point to an accumulation of power every cycle.

Since their bodies are known to be puppets now, they can't be working from food->energy like normal humans. That leaves magic, so even existing would probably take some power for their soul gem.

One thing i would like to know is why are all the current witches having western names? Do they do a swap? Like Sayaka becomes a witch over in europe while europe's charlotte goes over to japan?!?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by taofd

x dere wouldn't apply here as must of the time the terms are used for interactions between individuals of romantic interest.

As said above,"Kuudere" seems to fit her well,especialy after that scene where she had her breakdown in episode 8

About Homura's wish being to go back in time,did QB grant that wish?

I mean I doubt there was a conversation that went like :

Homura:"Let me go back in time to prevent you from executing your masterplan"
QB:"sure,go right ahead"

Unless QB thought she'd fail and therefore would go into dispair and become a witch"

[taofd]

Originally Posted by totoum

As said above,"Kuudere" seems to fit her well,especialy after that scene where she had her breakdown in episode 8

About Homura's wish being to go back in time,did QB grant that wish?

I mean I doubt there was a conversation that went like :

Homura:"Let me go back in time to prevent you from executing your masterplan"
QB:"sure,go right ahead"

Unless QB thought she'd fail and therefore would go into dispair and become a witch"

If QB was in fact the facilitator of Homura returning to the past. As you mentioned it raises a few interesting questions.

1) Why would QB do such a thing? Is he not afraid of her meddling in her plans?
2) Where is QB getting this power (how can he send people through space/time)
3) WHAT is QB?
4) Perhaps QB has a different motive beyond corrupting young mahou shoujo?

Perhaps QB is bound by a contract himself of things he can and cannot do. I believe he mentioned that he had certain rules himself.


EDIT

Also, where is the word kuudere derived from? (never heard it before)

Is it kuu as in kuuki / mood or atmosphere?

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Zaresh

Well... Wait, what?!

He's not eating himself. He, like a cannibal farmer, is planting seeds in innocent girls, lying through omission to them, and for the sole purpose to eat their seeds when those little magical girls (who, we must don't forget had lost their natural bodies. But, nevermind...) become mad, crazy evil, breaking their lifes, forever. And for hunting them, he pacts with more little innocent girls, lying through omission once again I must say, little girls who, eventualy, will become witches who he's going to hunt and whose seeds he is going to eat again. Basicaly, he's farming and sacrificing little innocent girls for feeding himself.

If that's not evil enough to call it evil, what is it?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=711

Too long to post, but here's the discussion.

Personally, I think there's a lot of things we don't yet know about QB. Leaves a lot of room for his redemption.

[Zaresh]

Originally Posted by taofd

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=711

Too long to post, but here's the discussion.

Personally, I think there's a lot of things we don't yet know about QB. Leaves a lot of room for his redemption.

Ok, we don't know a lot of things about QB. So what? \o/ Sure we know enough things to guess. Besides, that doesn't do his acts less evil or does mean my points and logic are wrong. That his actions are logical for him doesn't make him less evil, by the way. Currently, on plain sight, even on hidden sight, he's evil for those girls, and the girls are part of our mankind.

I understand that you want him to be neutral at best, but I sure think he's not, as I shown you in my argument.

And I think this thread is as good as kyuubey thread to post these things, because this episode points hints related to argue about it. It really confuses me if you link a post in another thread to argue with someone, it's like a diversion .

And what do you consider evil?

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Zaresh

Ok, we don't know a lot of things about QB. So what? \o/ Sure we know enough things to guess. Besides, that doesn't do his acts less evil or does mean my points and logic are wrong. That his actions are logical for him doesn't make him less evil, by the way. Currently, on plain sight, even on hidden sight, he's evil for those girls, and the girls are part of our mankind.

I understand that you want him to be neutral at best, but I sure think he's not, as I shown you in my argument.

And I think this thread is as good as kyuubey thread to post these things, because this episode points hints related to argue about it. It really confuses me if you link a post in another thread to argue with someone, it's like a diversion .

And what do you consider evil?

Sorry, I posted it in that thread because it's the speculation / spoiler thread, and so most of the theories are in that thread.

It's not to say that his actions may not be perceived as evil, but I think evil is pretty subjective. For example, if you do an evil thing but with an intent for good, is that evil? Furthermore, can evil people do good things? I think the road to hell is often paved with good intention, but in this case, I question whether or not QB could be neutral / good (for example, an Elder God to combat the Old Ones). He may do many things that may be considered "bad", "cruel", or "evil" if we aren't privy to all the facts. Is it evil to torment a few young mahou shoujo, to save the rest of humanity for example?

It's very clear that QB is "alien" to human values, and I question whether or not there's a bit of bias to believe QB is evil simply because Urobuchi is writing this script.


EDIT:

Do people understand my references to H.P. Lovecraft? o_O For example, The Elder Gods were very neutral and while their interests usually overlapped with what was best for humanity, their means weren't always considered "good".

[Flower]

8 out of 10 from me ... well done ep.

Spoiler for ep 8 spoiler:

Totally did not expect Homura being a time traveller, though.

[Sol Falling]

Do the girl's really consider Kyuubey evil? At this moment. Let's consider:

Homura is clearly antagonistic. However, her goal has also been admitted to solely deal with Madoka. A great number of people including myself consider this goal to arise from strong personal feelings. So we cannot yet conclude that Homura considers Kyuubey evil from an objective perspective.

Next, Kyouko and Sayaka. I really like their relationship, it really seems like the possible yuri combinations in this show are practically endless. That doesn't really have anything to do with anything, so more relevantly both seem to have concluded that the joy and sadness balance from wishes seem to come up neutrally. Now, from an objective perspective I am still hesitant to take that conclusion as more than something they came up with from their personal experiences, but as for their own opinions, I think that shows that the girls don't believe yet that they have been decieved maliciously.

Finally, Madoka. As for her opinion this is still pretty straightforward, right? Kyuubey explicitly tells Madoka that in becoming a Puella Magi she will be trading her soul. That Madoka has yet to outright reject him says pretty clearly that she still believes there are things worth trading that for. In Madoka's eyes, Kyuubey's words and promises can still be trusted. So finally for Madoka I don't believe we can say yet that she believes Kyuubey is evil either.

Speaking solely from the girls' perspectives, do people agree with this?

[ThereminVox]

Spoiler for ep08:

Kyyyyyyyyyyyuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuubeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!

Incubator was a great reveal. It makes perfect sense, and ties in with Sayaka's transformation. The Soul Gem's resemblance to an egg is no coincidence. The girl is the larvae, and the Soul Gem is the cocoon within which the witch incubates.

I suspect that the grief seeds he's storing within himself are incubating as well. Hmmm.. Wonder what he's making in there...

Appropriate -- if unsurprising, given the overt Faust comparisons -- that Kyubey's final service to his contracts is to literally swallow their soul.

I preemptively tip my hat to those of you who first staked out the position that Hitomi isn't after Sayaka's crush all. Watch the scene again, and you'll notice we never hear her say anything that overtly implies a confession, and the scene Sayaka watches from a distance almost makes more sense if you assume Hitomi is actually lobbying on Sayaka's behalf. There's a lot of nodding and smiling, but if that was a confession, then they both remained remarkably cool and collected.

The above brings me to one last possible cherry on top of the tragedy sundae: Sayaka tells Kyouko just before her transformation that she did something terrible to a friend. If Hitomi really is working behind the scenes for Sayaka's sake, then we'd better hope like hell that she was talking about blowing up at Madoka.

[Flower]

Agreed about the Hitomi/Sayaka dynamic. I was also wondering whether Sayaka just misinterpreted what was going on (after all, we did not hear the words actually said).