AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Madoka Magica

Notices

View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Rating
Perfect 10 170 72.65%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 42 17.95%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 5.13%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 1.71%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.43%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.85%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 1.28%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 234. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-03-03, 04:37   Link #721
taofd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Is it evil to ensure one's own survival?




No, that's just being apathetic about life.

Agreed, I wouldn't say that it is evil. Although it's a fairly despicable thing to do.

Once again though, you are confusing a few issues. Kyouko has a vested interest in allowing witches to produce GS. Her life depends on it, and she has survived this far because of it.
taofd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 07:03   Link #722
erneiz_hyde
俺強えええ (笑)
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
OOT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner
Is it evil to ensure one's own survival?
You know, I've been playfully wondering with this in mind about the AVP movies. By this train of thought, then the Aliens are supposed to be on the 'good' side because they kill to survive, while Predator merely kills for sport. Yet, the producers always make the Aliens the BigBad while the Predators as the Bad That Might Still Be Good. just saying

Also, our weekly dose of despair is just around the corner. Brace your pants everyone, I have a feeling this next episode will be a blast.
Edit: WHAT THE FU**!? It's cancelled?...
Eh, apparently not, it's just some guys whining on the internet.
__________________

Last edited by erneiz_hyde; 2011-03-03 at 07:16.
erneiz_hyde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 08:04   Link #723
zwei-hamilton
Scientist in wonder land
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Welcome to AnimeSuki.

That idea has floated around here (in one thread or another), with variations (Homura is Sayaka, Madoka, etc.,). There really isn't much proof either way though since she's still very much an enigma. The next episode will probably narrow down most of our theories greatly (and probably create new ones ).

Personally I don't think Homura is anyone but herself, since I'm not really sure why she'd need to be anyone else.
Thanks!
The main reason why she might be someone among the already-known characters is that, with only 4 episodes left, it would be difficult to make a convincing development that explains why Homura is so passionate about Madoka. What type of events do you think would make a person so passionate that she can sacrifice anyone else for Madoka, especially a person like Homura? Just a plain-old saving-life story is convincing enough?

For Homura=Mother hypothesis, there had been some scenes which implied Homura might be Madoka's mother (I guess such discussions might have been done here): Both of them have a habit to often toss their hairs; both of them have purple eyes; both of them seem to like to use hair-dressing items; the first question ever that Homura did to Madoka was like one a mother would do to the daughter; in talking with Sayaka in the last episode, she referred to Madoka as "ano ko (that girl)" not "kanojo (she)" and this is more like a mother would refer to her daughter; and, on top of all that, the crying scene in the episode 8.

But, anyway let's see what happens in the Episode 9 that starts in a few hours!
zwei-hamilton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 08:12   Link #724
zwei-hamilton
Scientist in wonder land
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei-hamilton View Post
Thanks!
; both of them seem to like to use hair-dressing items;
I meant "Black" hair-dressing items.
Mother wore a black one in the Episode 1, while Homura has been wearing a black head band.
zwei-hamilton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 15:26   Link #725
ruurguy
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
OOT

You know, I've been playfully wondering with this in mind about the AVP movies. By this train of thought, then the Aliens are supposed to be on the 'good' side because they kill to survive, while Predator merely kills for sport. Yet, the producers always make the Aliens the BigBad while the Predators as the Bad That Might Still Be Good. just saying

Also, our weekly dose of despair is just around the corner. Brace your pants everyone, I have a feeling this next episode will be a blast.
Edit: WHAT THE FU**!? It's cancelled?...
Eh, apparently not, it's just some guys whining on the internet.
Well, both aliens and predators were at one point definitely trying to kill humans. Aliens are considered well, alien, and we have no way of communicating with. And they definitely want us dead/used, even if it is for their survival. For Predators, umm, at least we can sort of communicate with them and make an alliance, so, it's sort of an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation.
ruurguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 15:31   Link #726
Kinematics
Let's play a game!
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Kyoko is not fighting the familiars because she wishes to protect people. She is not fighting the familiars because she wishes for those people to die.

Sure, she saved some people from dying by killing witches. She also let many people die for Grief Seeds. What makes Kyoko evil is she wants people to die for her sake.
There's no real direct analogy, so I'm just going to try to put this in mathematical terms.

Suppose:

1) Each witch fought generates an average of 5 familiars over its lifetime.
2) That the cost (in magic used/soul gem contamination) of defeating a familiar is 1 point, and the cost of defeating a witch is 5 points. (ignoring possible perpetuation costs of just maintaining her magical body)
3) That a grief seed restores 15 point of energy.
4) That only half of all witches drop a grief seed.

Scenario 1: Kyouko fights and kills all witches and familiars.

She gets a grief seed from every other witch, so has to kill 2 witches and 10 familiars per grief seed.

The cost of defeating 2 witches and 10 familiars is 20 points. She only recovers 15 points per grief seed. Therefore her overall net magic power/soul gem purity is degrading by 5 points for every two witches fought. If she started with 100 points, after 40 witches she would be dead, and probably not terribly effective at fighting the last half-dozen or so anyway, leading to even more deaths, and possibly even a premature one for herself.


Scenario 2: Kyouko allows one familiar to upgrade to a witch per witch/familiar set.

That means each witch set effectively becomes 2 witches and 4 familiars, and will tend to always generate a grief seed.

Cost of fighting 2 witches and 4 familiars is 14 points. She recovers 15 points per grief seed. Therefore she has a net +1 energy point for every witch set she kills.

Whereas in scenario 1 she would be dead after 40 witches, in scenario 2 she would be at 140 points instead of 100, giving her more flexibility in the use of her power and more buffer to keep her alive.


So then the question becomes, how many people have to be killed to convert a familiar to a witch, and how does that compare to the number of people killed by the familiars and witches in the time before Kyouko would be able to find and kill them?

Further, the instant she dies, deaths start racking up that are effectively her responsibility (even if another magical girl would come in to take over her territory). How long would it take for the deaths to overtake the losses caused by the familiars?

If 120 people died (over and above however many died before the familiar could be found in the first place) for those familiars to become witches, and a witch and her familiars normally caused 10 deaths before being eliminated, a mere dozen witches further into Kyouko's career would balance out the loss.

If she believes that she is more capable than any likely replacement (which is quite possibly true to a large extent, especially if she's working a net positive on the magic flow instead of a net negative), she might also expect that, aside from general psychological responsibility, her replacement may allow *more* people to die even if following the "kill immediately" tactic.

Given her improved powers, is it possible that she may be more effective in preventing deaths as a whole? Finding and tracking down 5 familiars that on average killed 3 people each, or allowing one to kill 10 people while clearing out the others before they kill more than 1?


We simply don't have enough knowledge of how she operates to know the exact balance of how things would play out, so declaring her actions as 'evil' based only on a subset of information seems remarkably short-sighted.

Quote:
Mami killed both witches and familiars. She got enough Grief Seeds to live quite a long time.
We also know that Mami's special power allowed her to use those grief seeds more efficiently. Perhaps she got 25 points per use instead of 15. That would allow her to be less efficient in her strategy for gathering grief seeds and still maintain a net positive magical flow.
Kinematics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 18:59   Link #727
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinematics View Post
We also know that Mami's special power allowed her to use those grief seeds more efficiently. Perhaps she got 25 points per use instead of 15. That would allow her to be less efficient in her strategy for gathering grief seeds and still maintain a net positive magical flow.
Wait, I do not remember Mami having such special powers. Can you point to the quote that confirms that fact?

Your scenarios make sense. However, I am not entirely convinced that Kyoko is unable to survive by killing both witches and familiars. At the least, Kyoko could kill familiars until she reaches her limit... and then go about waiting for a witch.

So instead of killing 2 witches and 10 familiars (-20 + 15), she could kill 2 witches and 5 familiars (-15 + 15). Partial reduction, in other words. That would convince me that Kyoko is putting forth an effort to save people. Alas, from what I have seen, Kyoko is disinterested in humanity's well being.
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 19:15   Link #728
taofd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinematics View Post
There's no real direct analogy, so I'm just going to try to put this in mathematical terms.

Suppose:

1) Each witch fought generates an average of 5 familiars over its lifetime.
2) That the cost (in magic used/soul gem contamination) of defeating a familiar is 1 point, and the cost of defeating a witch is 5 points. (ignoring possible perpetuation costs of just maintaining her magical body)
3) That a grief seed restores 15 point of energy.
4) That only half of all witches drop a grief seed.

Scenario 1: Kyouko fights and kills all witches and familiars.

She gets a grief seed from every other witch, so has to kill 2 witches and 10 familiars per grief seed.

The cost of defeating 2 witches and 10 familiars is 20 points. She only recovers 15 points per grief seed. Therefore her overall net magic power/soul gem purity is degrading by 5 points for every two witches fought. If she started with 100 points, after 40 witches she would be dead, and probably not terribly effective at fighting the last half-dozen or so anyway, leading to even more deaths, and possibly even a premature one for herself.


Scenario 2: Kyouko allows one familiar to upgrade to a witch per witch/familiar set.

That means each witch set effectively becomes 2 witches and 4 familiars, and will tend to always generate a grief seed.

Cost of fighting 2 witches and 4 familiars is 14 points. She recovers 15 points per grief seed. Therefore she has a net +1 energy point for every witch set she kills.

Whereas in scenario 1 she would be dead after 40 witches, in scenario 2 she would be at 140 points instead of 100, giving her more flexibility in the use of her power and more buffer to keep her alive.


So then the question becomes, how many people have to be killed to convert a familiar to a witch, and how does that compare to the number of people killed by the familiars and witches in the time before Kyouko would be able to find and kill them?

Further, the instant she dies, deaths start racking up that are effectively her responsibility (even if another magical girl would come in to take over her territory). How long would it take for the deaths to overtake the losses caused by the familiars?

If 120 people died (over and above however many died before the familiar could be found in the first place) for those familiars to become witches, and a witch and her familiars normally caused 10 deaths before being eliminated, a mere dozen witches further into Kyouko's career would balance out the loss.

If she believes that she is more capable than any likely replacement (which is quite possibly true to a large extent, especially if she's working a net positive on the magic flow instead of a net negative), she might also expect that, aside from general psychological responsibility, her replacement may allow *more* people to die even if following the "kill immediately" tactic.

Given her improved powers, is it possible that she may be more effective in preventing deaths as a whole? Finding and tracking down 5 familiars that on average killed 3 people each, or allowing one to kill 10 people while clearing out the others before they kill more than 1?


We simply don't have enough knowledge of how she operates to know the exact balance of how things would play out, so declaring her actions as 'evil' based only on a subset of information seems remarkably short-sighted.



We also know that Mami's special power allowed her to use those grief seeds more efficiently. Perhaps she got 25 points per use instead of 15. That would allow her to be less efficient in her strategy for gathering grief seeds and still maintain a net positive magical flow.
This is a utilitarian argument, and suffers from one of its greatest flaws. Theoretically what you say is all true, but the issue here is how do you accurately quantify human life? That is something that utilitarianism has struggled and failed to do convincingly.

I think a more accurate and pertinent way to determine "evil" as an attribute is through intent. Madoka Magica each of the girl's desires, and so far I would argue that there are no evil characters that have appeared yet.
taofd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 20:19   Link #729
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
We also have another issue about Utilitarian argument, being that good is a variable and not really a constant, which is something that Karl Marx had some problem with. As a result, it almost becomes self-serving to declare the value of utility when this is not a constant. We would have to fall into a deontological camp to assign definite values that are in-volatile to do this justification by numbers, or to somehow say that there exist certain utilities that are constant.
(Sorry for derailing. It's just too tempting)
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 21:09   Link #730
taofd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
We also have another issue about Utilitarian argument, being that good is a variable and not really a constant, which is something that Karl Marx had some problem with. As a result, it almost becomes self-serving to declare the value of utility when this is not a constant. We would have to fall into a deontological camp to assign definite values that are in-volatile to do this justification by numbers, or to somehow say that there exist certain utilities that are constant.
(Sorry for derailing. It's just too tempting)
I see a lot of utilitarians using a free-market approaching to assigning value to life. However, they still ignore the issue that there may be value to a human being beyond their worth to society. For example, how do you take into account potential value? Also, a very ethical and wise individual could bring very little direct value to society, but cause a great amount of indirect value, such as Socrates. This is the fatal conceit of utilitarianism; they are unable to account for all variables.

QB for the most part, leaves the question open. If Mahou Shoujo can continue being Mahou Shoujo but produce a positive energy (rather than becoming witches), this is probably something he would prefer because it would mean a true limitless supply of energy. If this is possible, and if he is a true utilitarian, he will adopt this new approach.
taofd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-03, 21:33   Link #731
Kinematics
Let's play a game!
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Wait, I do not remember Mami having such special powers. Can you point to the quote that confirms that fact?
Hm. Well, it was generally implied in 5:15-5:30 in episode 6 (and generally the entire conversation Sayaka has with Kyubei at that point), but I think I misremembered the exact lines as being mixed with things people have said on the boards. It's possible to interpret what was said in a more metaphorical way, but the basic gist was that Mami was able to function well despite not acquiring as many grief seeds as might be warranted.


Quote:
Your scenarios make sense. However, I am not entirely convinced that Kyoko is unable to survive by killing both witches and familiars. At the least, Kyoko could kill familiars until she reaches her limit... and then go about waiting for a witch.
The problem with that strategy is that you automatically place yourself at heavy risk due to the (presumed) perpetuation cost of maintaining your magical body (even if not seen that way before they knew about how their bodies were constructed, the magical 'upkeep' cost would still be known). It also puts you at a severe disadvantage if you encounter a witch that's significantly stronger than you made allowance for.

It'd be like living with a bank account sitting at $20 between paydays because that's enough for a sandwich and a tank of gas. If your car breaks down, or a leak forms in your roof, or any of a million other things, you're screwed.

Of course you don't have to live on such a slim buffer, but then it just becomes a question of "how much?" And you still need to produce that buffer somehow.
Kinematics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 00:27   Link #732
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinematics View Post
Hm. Well, it was generally implied in 5:15-5:30 in episode 6 (and generally the entire conversation Sayaka has with Kyubei at that point), but I think I misremembered the exact lines as being mixed with things people have said on the boards. It's possible to interpret what was said in a more metaphorical way, but the basic gist was that Mami was able to function well despite not acquiring as many grief seeds as might be warranted.
I guess I can take your word for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinematics View Post
The problem with that strategy is that you automatically place yourself at heavy risk due to the (presumed) perpetuation cost of maintaining your magical body (even if not seen that way before they knew about how their bodies were constructed, the magical 'upkeep' cost would still be known). It also puts you at a severe disadvantage if you encounter a witch that's significantly stronger than you made allowance for.
Yes, but Kyoko is obligated to take that risk in order to save people from dying. Even if she kills one familiar per ten witches, that would show the intention of saving people - I would find Kyoko lazy instead of evil. Unfortunately, Kyoko has expressed the opposite. She says that innocent people serve as means to her own ends, and that she will never fight for someone else's sake. Not willing to save a single person and willing to let those people die for self-benefit makes Kyoko evil.

Well, what Kyoko does and says do contradict each other. If it is revealed that Kyoko has been lying, then maybe she is not evil.
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 09:00   Link #733
Sekishi
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
WTF, this Bullshit about Kyouko being evil or not is missplaced in an episode thread and should be limited to the character thread.
Since Kyouko sacrified herself and has been shown to be a good girl behind a selfish facade this discussion is pointless.
Sekishi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-29, 20:54   Link #734
MrSandman
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Sandman here, 2 cent aplenty.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica Episode 8:
MrSandman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-05, 14:44   Link #735
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
Reckoner in particular said he was looking forward to my reaction to this episode and I can pretty much see why now. It's basically the episode where it's all layed out for the viewer.

Right from the get go it's easy to see that Sayaka was about to go the way of Mami (her starting to adopt Akemi's mannerisms were tip off that she was a changed person after her most recent battle), but I wasn't quite expecting something like that. Well okay...I kind of suspected it given the nature of the series so far and the fact that the witches obviously had to come from somewhere. It only made sense that they would have come from an already powerful magical source like the magical girls gone corrupt. I don't think it needed to happen this way though and am kind of disappointed in how stubborn Sayaka got after just one set back last episode that didn't even really need to be. For such a strong character she sure fell hard and fast. Obviously I know it's supposed to be a classic tragedy, but I still don't find it all that believable given the nature of the character beforehand. Perhaps the limited length of the series forced the writers hand to make things move fast. It's not the worst result, so I'll take it, but wow what a shame for Sayaka's character. Guess it's all up to Madoka now. Frankly I don't blame Kyubei too much on this one though. That was all Sayaka.

Anyway other things that happened this episode included Kyoko and Akemi planning an ambush for the elite witch type monster that is about to appear. Speaking of Akemi she was a bit of a saving grace this episode and I think it's time people start listening to her more, but now I have to ask what is up with all the sudden character changes. Kyoko is like a different more relatable person after just telling her story, I guess she trusts the other girls more or something, but she basically went through a personality inversion as of this episode. Akemi is suddenly a lot more open and you'd almost get a sense that she's been through all of this before by how much she knows. Is she possibly some sort of time travelling magical girl? It wouldn't surprise me since a lot of Magical Girl shows (at least the ones I've watched) have dealt with time travel at some point. Specifically Sailor Moon, but also Nanoha and Card Captor Sakura.

I still like where some of this is going and it opens up the possibility for an interesting finale, but I can't help but feel that part of the morality/balance issue is getting muddled in the girls just plain being the authors of their own destiny as Akemi seems to think. They just made bad decision after bad decision recently and seem to succumb to despair a little too easily giving Incubator/Kyubei everything that it apparently wants. If Akemi does turn out to be a time traveller I'm going to be a little disappointed that she couldn't tell all a little sooner here. I mean of course the show has to keep up the aura of mystery, but I've never really liked it when bad things happen to good people just because people refuse to tell people the whole story and have a proper dialogue, especially when there's no outright intention to deceive as it appears here for all the characters. It strikes me more as a crutch for writers telling a story than anything else. We'll see though....I'm kind of interested to find out what it is up Madoka's potential since even Kyubei doesn't seem to understand. Something to look forward to as well as we head towards the finale.
Kaioshin Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-05, 14:55   Link #736
GDB
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 29
Have to say, I was also looking forward to your take on this episode. Also looking forward to your impressions of episodes 9 and 10. Now, are you going to continue with the TV broadcasts for 9-12, or wait on the BDs?

Also, why do you refer to Homura by her last name and everyone else by their first names?
GDB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-05, 15:14   Link #737
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
Oh shoot, I forgot to mention something really important. Madoka's voice acting by Yuuki Aoi has been really strong and a big part of why I've gotten into the character so much. She's definitely becoming one to watch out for like Kana Hanazawa has become for me recently.
Kaioshin Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-05, 16:11   Link #738
Arkanis
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
I wouldn't quite call it a character inversion regarding Kyouko. In particular all we can see is a change in behavior, but behavior is just something emanating from surface coating the underlying character. From my point of view Kyouko is an especially caring character to persons who she feels bound with. And that comes to light in this instance.
Arkanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-05, 16:14   Link #739
Triple_R
Senior Member
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 34
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Great to read another one of your reviews Kaioshin.

Fascinating how you don't appear to bear much malice towards Kyubey. Even I, who had defended him a long time (along with Kaijo and a couple others) pretty much gave up defending him after this episode. I think that it's fair to say that most viewers saw him as evil, or at least as villainous, after this episode.

That being said, I agree almost entirely with your comments pertaining to character development. Kyoko's character does indeed do a personality inversion between her first encounter with Sayaka, and how she comes across in this episode. I myself had real issues with that.

However, I have come up with a theory that can perhaps legitimize why Kyoko seemingly changed so rapidly, but I'll bring it up after you review Episode 9, since it touches on that episode a bit.


One character that I differ with you on a bit is Homura. Maybe it's where I'm somewhat used to the magical girl genre, but it had long been apparent to me that Homura was hiding strong feelings for Madoka behind a cold facade, so her emotional breakdown in this episode was something I could easily accept (and, in fact, I was glad to see it).


Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to your reviews on each of the final four episodes.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-05, 16:56   Link #740
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
People seem to forget. It was Sayaka who first swung her sword at Kyoko, not Kyoko who swung her spear . People make her out to be more psychotic than she was initially presented. I always viewed Sayaka as unstable from the point they itnroduced Kamijou in this story.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
madoka, mahou shoujo, puella magi, shaft, urobuchi gen, witches

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.