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Old 2011-07-17, 05:16   Link #861
MeisterBabylon
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Those comparing this 'shift' to Madoka is too allergic. Madoka's somewhere better than 40K, only. T&B is waaay better than both, simply because there is still hope and hotblood and guts can still prevail at the end of it.

All we need now is Kotetsu gaining the ability to shatter Lunatic's illusion with his right fist!
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Old 2011-07-17, 06:01   Link #862
Anh_Minh
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To think Legend had such feet of clay. I hope Tiger never learns the full extent of that.

About Kotetsu retiring: I'm very ambivalent about that. Of course I don't want him to kill himself. I agree he doesn't need super powers to be a good man. But I can't help but think the other heroes still need him. How will they feel if he just quits? Oh, well. Maybe the mark of a great man is the people he left behind. Barnaby, Blue Rose, and to some extent Dragon Kid grew in his contact. Maybe that will be enough. (Certainly better than the mixed heritage of Legend, with Lunatic and Tiger. Unless Kaede grows up to be a pyromaniac vigilante or something.)

About Maverick being evil: he does look evil. But I don't know if taking in Barnaby was that suspicious. I'm reminded of Batman's Alfred. Sure, the healthy thing would have been to teach him to move past his obsession instead of pushing him to risk his life. But there wouldn't be much super-heroing going on if people were that reasonable. And all in all, Barnaby turned out alright.
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Old 2011-07-17, 06:18   Link #863
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I guess some people thought this show would be Superman

And now they are surprised that this is turning into Batman

but I think what this show wants to be is Spiderman

Gwen Stacy just died, my friend. Playtime is over.

//
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Old 2011-07-17, 07:54   Link #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
To think Legend had such feet of clay. I hope Tiger never learns the full extent of that.
This is my main concern going forward. Wifebeating is a big, big deal. If Tiger finds out that his idolized hero was a wifebeater (especially if he finds it out directly from Lunatic during a tense confrontation), and if he absolutely refuses to accept it and/or downplays it... The potential here for the likeable Kotetsu to be reduced to a horrible moment of douchebaggery, one that some viewers may never forgive him for, is scarily high.

I will say that Episode 16 does a lot for Lunatic's character. Makes him much more interesting and sympathetic. But it's only worth it if Kotetsu doesn't have his character seriously hurt, later on, due to it.
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Old 2011-07-17, 08:03   Link #865
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This is my main concern going forward. Wifebeating is a big, big deal. If Tiger finds out that his idolized hero was a wifebeater (especially if he finds it out directly from Lunatic during a tense confrontation), and if he absolutely refuses to accept it and/or downplays it... The potential here for the likeable Kotetsu to be reduced to a horrible moment of douchebaggery, one that some viewers may never forgive him for, is scarily high.

I will say that Episode 16 does a lot for Lunatic's character. Makes him much more interesting and sympathetic. But it's only worth it if Kotetsu doesn't have his character seriously hurt, later on, due to it.
I think him downplaying it is unlikely. Flat out denial, OTOH... I mean, he'd only have Lunatic's word for it to start with. And even with mounting evidence... Some truths are just too unpleasant to easily accept.
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Old 2011-07-17, 08:26   Link #866
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I think him downplaying it is unlikely. Flat out denial, OTOH... I mean, he'd only have Lunatic's word for it to start with. And even with mounting evidence... Some truths are just too unpleasant to easily accept.
Agreed.

I just hope that viewers don't hold such a refusal to accept too much against Tiger if it does come to that.
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Old 2011-07-17, 08:50   Link #867
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Ep 16, holy shit. Totally didn’t expect that. Legend losing his power, becoming depressed, resolved into alcohol, wife beating, and being Lunatic’s father, what a fucking plot twist. It really adds plenty to Lunatic’s character on the way he is now. If Kotetsu ever found out about all of those stuff Legend did I’m sure he’ll be broken. He basically idolized Legend. What happened to Legend happens to him now. I’m guessing the show is currently following the angst route. The Batman route is probably already finished with Barnaby, I wonder what will they show us now?

My speculation on Maverick being Legend also was pretty much off. Seeing how he’s got history with Barnaby’s dad made me wonder if he was actually the one pulling the strings on the parents’ death
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Old 2011-07-17, 10:04   Link #868
Dann of Thursday
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Couldn't Kotetsu become a sort of teacher if he should need to retire in the end? He already has taken a sort of mentor role with many others and the students at the academy appeared to regard him quite highly.

I'd expect he'll discover what became of Legend at one point. He probably would go into denial and probably get a bit depressed, but I do think that he might get past it in the end.
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Old 2011-07-17, 10:13   Link #869
Anh_Minh
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Couldn't Kotetsu become a sort of teacher if he should need to retire in the end? He already has taken a sort of mentor role with many others and the students at the academy appeared to regard him quite highly.
That'd be nice. But I'm not sure we're headed for "nice".
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Old 2011-07-17, 10:13   Link #870
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I don't think it's that simple for Kotetsu. It's pretty clear that there are careers and life after superhero retirement, but that realistic notion of 'moving on' doesn't necessarily apply to everyone.

Kotetsu's life literally revolved around being a superhero. His aspirations, dreams, fuel... To him, it's not just a job, but a living dream.

I don't like to make any assumptions, but I feel that Legend was the same way. Being a superhero was his life, and he knew absolutely nothing else. I don't know if the staged captures and false records of Legend were mutual on his own part, or it was forced by corporations who wanted Legend to stay in the superhero business for profits, but it was pretty obvious Legend didn't like what he became one bit... which gave birth to Lunatic.
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Old 2011-07-17, 10:34   Link #871
Dann of Thursday
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That'd be nice. But I'm not sure we're headed for "nice".
Hmm, you're right. Perhaps incredibly depressing then? Always something to keep in mind.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
I don't think it's that simple for Kotetsu. It's pretty clear that there are careers and life after superhero retirement, but that realistic notion of 'moving on' doesn't necessarily apply to everyone.

Kotetsu's life literally revolved around being a superhero. His aspirations, dreams, fuel... To him, it's not just a job, but a living dream.

I don't like to make any assumptions, but I feel that Legend was the same way. Being a superhero was his life, and he knew absolutely nothing else. I don't know if the staged captures and false records of Legend were mutual on his own part, or it was forced by corporations who wanted Legend to stay in the superhero business for profits, but it was pretty obvious Legend didn't like what he became one bit... which gave birth to Lunatic.
He probably never has considered what he'd do if he couldn't be a hero, yes. Considering that he finally seems to be getting recognition and respect, this is an especially hard blow for him.

Perhaps Kotetsu could become the antithesis of what Legend became? There's also the potential that Kotetsu might just lose it and go off the deep end, doing many things he'd regret. Perhaps take advantage of Karina or hit his daughter. Maybe even end up as some sort of villain before some last bit of heroism. I'd be rather surprised if we went quite that dark with him though.

Too bad he can't be like Batman and rely on gadgets and intelligence rather than powers.
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Old 2011-07-17, 10:43   Link #872
Nightengale
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How does one define the anti-thesis of Legend though?

To accept the passages of time, move on, accept a superhero retirement package and become a news caster/teacher/new career path?

To live a new, human life with virtue without corruption as a loving father and son? To finally become a father that Kaede needed most of her life and pass on the job of protection to others?

To simply accept becoming a 'hero of people's heart', and acknowledge that while he can no longer be a hero, he has inspired heroism in others?

These options are perfectly rational, good and for most people, easy to make because they're good choices with nothing bad out of it.

But is that the case for Kotetsu?

Furthermore, with how the story is progressing, this feels more like a choice that is forced on Kotetsu, and not a choice he wanted to make willingly. Even more so after the Legend comparison, because for Kotetsu at his current thought process... to choose either side of the extreme is suffering.
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Old 2011-07-17, 10:57   Link #873
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
How does one define the anti-thesis of Legend though?

To accept the passages of time, move on, accept a superhero retirement package and become a news caster/teacher/new career path?

To live a new, human life with virtue without corruption as a loving father and son? To finally become a father that Kaede needed most of her life and pass on the job of protection to others?

To simply accept becoming a 'hero of people's heart', and acknowledge that while he can no longer be a hero, he has inspired heroism in others?

These options are perfectly rational, good and for most people, easy to make because they're good choices with nothing bad out of it.

But is that the case for Kotetsu?

Furthermore, with how the story is progressing, this feels more like a choice that is forced on Kotetsu, and not a choice he wanted to make willingly. Even more so after the Legend comparison, because for Kotetsu at his current thought process... to choose either side of the extreme is suffering.
I'll commend this. There are a lot of ways Tiger could move on, but that doesn't mean any one of them would satisfy him. If this were an RPG, encouraging Tiger to one point or another would be a quest in and of itself.

And there's always the point that he, too, could fall into Mr. Legend's fate: does anyone doubt that the other heroes would give him a few captures to keep him in the game? With the Tiger & Bunny team so popular, does anyone doubt the companies and Agnes would be willing to let him stay?

It would be poisonous kindness. I bet everyone thought they were doing something nice for Mr. Legend as well.

In a way, though, I think Yuri's mother was right: I think Mr. Legend would have recovered at some point. I think he would have gone back to being the man everyone respected, even without his powers. But, at that moment, when Yuri tried to stop him-



Whatever happens, though, I think Tiger will pull through. I think that's going to be a point of this story: while you can't remain optimistic always, and while everyone loses sight and loses their way, it doesn't mean you can't recover. In Season 1, Tiger helped others. Now, it will be their chance to help him.

Physician, heal thyself.
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Old 2011-07-17, 11:12   Link #874
Guardian Enzo
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This is my main concern going forward. Wifebeating is a big, big deal. If Tiger finds out that his idolized hero was a wifebeater (especially if he finds it out directly from Lunatic during a tense confrontation), and if he absolutely refuses to accept it and/or downplays it... The potential here for the likeable Kotetsu to be reduced to a horrible moment of douchebaggery, one that some viewers may never forgive him for, is scarily high.
I'll be shocked if that happens. Kotetsu isn't a character built on quicksand - he has a solid foundation of decency and honor. I see no evidence that the writers of this show are capable of the hackery it would take to turn him into a douchebag.
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Old 2011-07-17, 11:26   Link #875
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Hmm, you're right. Perhaps incredibly depressing then? Always something to keep in mind.



He probably never has considered what he'd do if he couldn't be a hero, yes. Considering that he finally seems to be getting recognition and respect, this is an especially hard blow for him.

Perhaps Kotetsu could become the antithesis of what Legend became? There's also the potential that Kotetsu might just lose it and go off the deep end, doing many things he'd regret. Perhaps take advantage of Karina or hit his daughter. Maybe even end up as some sort of villain before some last bit of heroism. I'd be rather surprised if we went quite that dark with him though.

Too bad he can't be like Batman and rely on gadgets and intelligence rather than powers.
I could never see Ktetsu go off the deep end. He's just too nice of a guy. I do agree that he will be the antithesis of What Mr. Justice and Lunatic are

Okay, here is some wild speculation time:

Okay, I think one of the revolving morals of the show is that of justice and what justice means to different heroes. We have Mr. Legendwho named himself after his ideal and then we have two "heroes" who follow in his legacy: his son, Lunatic and his number 1 fan, Wild Tiger.

I think that Mr. Legend's justice is a justice for the sake of justice and/or justice born from glory. Its root was his powers. Because he could exact justice, he did so. Once he lost those he lost everything. He had nothing else to fall back to and because of that he fell.

His falling created Lunatic. We see where Lunatic's fanatical justice comes from in that flashback: his father tells him strike evil down if it shows up in front of him. Yuri takes this especially to heart when he sees his own father doing evil and does as his father instructs literally. From there, Lunatic is born, his justice now perverted by the sins of his father. His justice has no kindness, no mercy. He does what he thinks is necessary, what he thinks heroes are too weak to do.

Then we have Kotetsu. He hasn't seen Mr. Legendat his downfall, he's only seen him at his apex and it shows. He's all about justice, but his seems different to me. His justice is all about protecting those he cares about, whether that be his friends, his family, his fellow heroes or the city itself. It not only effects his works as a hero but it effects how he interacts with everyone. He may not be the best hero but his attitude is infectious. It effects the people around him. rallies them together. To me, if he does loose his powers, I don't think it will break him or if it does, the people around him won't let him fall too far.

Hope that made some sort of sense.

Last edited by Funkatron; 2011-07-17 at 15:21.
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Old 2011-07-17, 13:25   Link #876
Haak
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This is my main concern going forward. Wifebeating is a big, big deal. If Tiger finds out that his idolized hero was a wifebeater (especially if he finds it out directly from Lunatic during a tense confrontation), and if he absolutely refuses to accept it and/or downplays it... The potential here for the likeable Kotetsu to be reduced to a horrible moment of douchebaggery, one that some viewers may never forgive him for, is scarily high.

I will say that Episode 16 does a lot for Lunatic's character. Makes him much more interesting and sympathetic. But it's only worth it if Kotetsu doesn't have his character seriously hurt, later on, due to it.
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I'll be shocked if that happens. Kotetsu isn't a character built on quicksand - he has a solid foundation of decency and honor. I see no evidence that the writers of this show are capable of the hackery it would take to turn him into a douchebag.
I gotta agree with Gaurdian Enzo on this. I have more faith in Kotetsu and don't think he'd do any such thing. I'd want Kotetsu to find out about Mr Legend, since I think it would actually help deal with his loss of powers (which I also want happening in the end, so he can finally be a "hero" to his daughter).

Anyway I'm going to chime in with everyone and marvel at the incredibly cynical route it suddenly swirved into. I think it will end optimistically or atleast bittersweet optimistically so I rather enjoyed this sudden shift.
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Old 2011-07-17, 13:36   Link #877
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Its Mr. Legend not Justice.

As I've said before Kotetsu has a knack for mentoring if he retires he still has an option to teach at Hero Academy or play coach to the second stringers.

I think one of the reasons why Maverick had hired Kotetsu was to mentor Barnaby to be a hero.
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Old 2011-07-17, 13:45   Link #878
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Kotetsu is more knowledgable of the situation he is getting himself in then Mr. Legend was, so he's able to deal with it earlier rather then later when in a critical situation. I still believe Kotetsu can be a hero without his powers, I mean he stopped Lunatic from killing the criminal while Barnaby caught him. So they can start placing more gadgets in their suits to help out. But right now, unlike the first half of Tiger & Bunny where Kotetsu helps Barnaby. It seems Barnaby is going to be the one to help Kotetsu this time, with his powers declining and if he decides to retire from being a hero after overcoming all the delimma. He can start focusing on raising his daughter, or atleast centering her more around his life and might eventually get the moment where his daughter calls him cool.
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Old 2011-07-17, 13:57   Link #879
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I'll be shocked if that happens. Kotetsu isn't a character built on quicksand - he has a solid foundation of decency and honor. I see no evidence that the writers of this show are capable of the hackery it would take to turn him into a douchebag.
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I gotta agree with Gaurdian Enzo on this. I have more faith in Kotetsu and don't think he'd do any such thing. I'd want Kotetsu to find out about Mr Legend, since I think it would actually help deal with his loss of powers (which I also want happening in the end, so he can finally be a "hero" to his daughter).

Anyway I'm going to chime in with everyone and marvel at the incredibly cynical route it suddenly swirved into. I think it will end optimistically or atleast bittersweet optimistically so I rather enjoyed this sudden shift.
Guys... Mr. Legend was Kotetsu's childhood hero. Mr. Legend is likely the primary reason why Kotetsu decided to become a hero in the first place.

Also, do you know why I think Kotetsu was pretty blaise during the celebration ceremony being thrown for his teammate Barnaby? I think it's because while he was happy for Barnaby, he also hated the thought that his big hero Mr. Legend had his records broken.

I respectfully think that you're both underestimating how much Mr. Legend meant and still means to Kotetsu. Just look at Kotetsu watching old black-and-white tapes of Mr. Legend. Just look at how upset Kotetsu became when he heard that Mr. Legend's powers faded with age.

This is clearly a very touchy spot for Kotetsu, and to expect him to just accept the news of his hero's descent into wifebeating and a self-destructive end without even so much as engaging in passionate denial of it... no offense, but that strikes me as wildly optimistic.

Hey, I hope that you're both right. But I truly doubt it.
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Old 2011-07-17, 14:14   Link #880
Haak
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I agree with you that Mr Legend certainly means that much to Kotetsu (though I think the reason Kotetsu was upset in that party was because he had the thought of his own powers in mind, not Mr Legend's record). I just don't think it has to mean such a passionate denial. Maybe a denial for about a day that harms no one at the most, but nothing more than that. It was a touchy spot for Kotetsu but Kotetsu didn't go into an incredible denial when he found out about Mr Legends massive record being a sham and becoming a heavy drinker. If what you say is true, that alone must've been big for Kotetsu but I'd say he took that bit quite reasonably despite it being a massive blow to Kotetsu's image of him.
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