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Old 2011-08-23, 10:28   Link #1281
lordshadowisle
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I just flipped though an earlier episode (8), Lunatic has access to Wild Tiger's files and does indeed know Kotetsu's identity. This is why Maverick's plan sucks; surely there are plenty of nosey government employees with access to such information and have browsed it out of boredom or curiosity. The number of people in the know makes his plan too high risk to have a chance of working... but then again, I don't think he's the final villain.

As for Kotetsu, one way of convincing the heroes is well, just to reveal their secret identities (just not in view of the camera).
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Old 2011-08-23, 10:49   Link #1282
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, but the fake could make it himself. How hard can it be?
Well, there's always the good old power test.

Mr. Kotetsu, you claim to be Wild Tiger? Could you activate your Hundred Power for five minutes, please?
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Old 2011-08-23, 10:54   Link #1283
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by lordshadowisle View Post
I just flipped though an earlier episode (8), Lunatic has access to Wild Tiger's files and does indeed know Kotetsu's identity. This is why Maverick's plan sucks; surely there are plenty of nosey government employees with access to such information and have browsed it out of boredom or curiosity. The number of people in the know makes his plan too high risk to have a chance of working... but then again, I don't think he's the final villain.

As for Kotetsu, one way of convincing the heroes is well, just to reveal their secret identities (just not in view of the camera).
Maverick's plan doesn't need to require that Tiger's identity never come to light. And why would it?

Maverick's goal isn't 'frame Tiger': it's 'obscure his responsibility for the murder of Barnaby's parents.' Everything else is how he's going to do that. Framing Tiger was a spectacular diversion: Tiger coming out on top is just as good for the ratings as if he doesn't. Remember, the point of framing Tiger is the spectacle.

At the end of the day, all Maverick has to do is claim that he himself was brainwashed like all the Heroes... which is incredibly easy for someone like him to pull off. He might even be able to brainwash himself to believe it.

Without someone like Kaede to actually prove he has powers, Maverick can always claim to be another victim of Ouroboros, just like the heroes, Doc Saito, and the cast of Hero TV.
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Old 2011-08-23, 14:24   Link #1284
Funkatron
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whoever made this has my thanks:
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Old 2011-08-23, 14:33   Link #1285
Fenrir_valindri
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EPIC MULTI-ANGLE POSING!

Heh, Kotetsu, your so awesome in your original outfit.
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Old 2011-08-23, 14:50   Link #1286
saravis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Maverick can always claim to be another victim of Ouroboros, just like the heroes, Doc Saito, and the cast of Hero TV.
Possibly, but Tiger has learned that Maverick lied to him about Barnaby being at his house. With that bit of information, its gonna be difficult for Maverick to concoct an "I'm a victim" story.

Honestly, though, I'm fine with a plan full of holes, happy even. Its refreshing to have a plan that isn't absurdly perfect.
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Old 2011-08-23, 15:08   Link #1287
Jeffry2009
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Tiger & Bunny One-Shot Manga Released On Young Jump Weekly Magazine



http://moeakiba.com/2011/08/05/tiger...ekly-magazine/
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Old 2011-08-23, 15:47   Link #1288
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by saravis View Post
Possibly, but Tiger has learned that Maverick lied to him about Barnaby being at his house. With that bit of information, its gonna be difficult for Maverick to concoct an "I'm a victim" story.
Why? If Maverick has had his memories altered to believe that Barnaby was at his house...

Maverick would be 'lying' in the same way that the other heroes are 'lying' about not knowing Tiger.
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Old 2011-08-23, 16:31   Link #1289
saravis
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Why? If Maverick has had his memories altered to believe that Barnaby was at his house...

Maverick would be 'lying' in the same way that the other heroes are 'lying' about not knowing Tiger.

How would Maverick achieve that? Kotetsu knows that Maverick lied to his face. He saw Maverick come on the news and reveal that Barnaby is with him. Maverick is sending Barnaby after Kotetsu. How is he going to cover that up with being a victim of memory alteration?
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Old 2011-08-23, 16:44   Link #1290
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by saravis View Post
How would Maverick achieve that? Kotetsu knows that Maverick lied to his face. He saw Maverick come on the news and reveal that Barnaby is with him. Maverick is sending Barnaby after Kotetsu. How is he going to cover that up with being a victim of memory alteration?
You, ah, just answered your own question. By claiming to be a victim of memory alteration: Maverick can claim lie is the result of memory manipulation. In the exact same sort of way that all the Heroes are lying when they say they've never known Kotetsu.

If whoever is behind this is capable of making life-long friend Antonio forget that Kotetsu is Tiger, why can't whoever is behind this have also targeted Maverick and manipulated his memories about Barnaby? And since there's no reason to believe that Maverick only had to have his memories meddled with just once while Orobouros was doing its evil scheme...

While Kotetsu's guess is correct by virtue of plot, there's nothing he's come across to actually prove that Maverick is the perpetrator and not another victim.

Not only would Maverick being 'discovered' to be a victim pardon him, but it also explains how Kotetsu's data was erased from the system (because, by targeting Maverick, they got access into HeroTV). Maverick goes from perpetrator to victim, with Orobouros's meddling going back however far is necessary to cover Maverick's sins.
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Old 2011-08-23, 17:10   Link #1291
saravis
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
You, ah, just answered your own question. By claiming to be a victim of memory alteration: Maverick can claim lie is the result of memory manipulation. In the exact same sort of way that all the Heroes are lying when they say they've never known Kotetsu.
You're not answering my question. I'm asking you how he is going to lead everyone to believe that he is a victim of memory alteration? What is the story he is going to concoct that doesn't contradict whats been established so far?
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Old 2011-08-23, 17:18   Link #1292
~BC~
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You know there's this little evil part of me that's interested in seeing things play out the way Dean describes. However, I don't think that plan would work so long as Barnaby is still alive.
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Old 2011-08-23, 18:20   Link #1293
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by saravis View Post
You're not answering my question. I'm asking you how he is going to lead everyone to believe that he is a victim of memory alteration?
Fake the symptoms by pretending he's under the same effect as the heroes, and then be 'saved' from it.

Or

Use his power on himself, in a xanatos gambit of absolute conviction. Plus, if any mindreader NEXT reads his self-altered memories, that 'proof' will only prove what Maverick believes not what he did.

OR

Arrange for evidence of his victimhood to be uncovered... like, say, being able to set up a witness who 'saw' him be brainwashed as well on a separate occassion.

OR

Work with Oroborous to let everyone's favorite criminal group take the responsibility: Oroborous finds/produces some NEXT who can easily be seen as responsible. Since we know that powers of the same type do exist, that's just a token-character introduction, not an impossibility.



Quote:
What is the story he is going to concoct that doesn't contradict whats been established so far?
It doesn't need to contradict. Tiger's suspicion has no proof besides the discrepancy between Maverick on TV and what Maverick told him in person, but that's the sort of discrepancy that can be explained by Maverick also being brainwashed in the interim. Since all the Heroes were also brainwashed in the interim, we know there was enough time for Maverick (Who was also at the dinner where... gasp! Everyone present forgot about Tiger!) to be hypothetically targeted.

The Heroes need to prove that Maverick is responsible for brainwashing the Heroes. That's going to include proving that Maverick himself wasn't a victim, as well as that he has the powers.

Fortunately, Kaede has provided the later.
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Old 2011-08-23, 19:31   Link #1294
saravis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Fake the symptoms by pretending he's under the same effect as the heroes, and then be 'saved' from it.

Or

Use his power on himself, in a xanatos gambit of absolute conviction. Plus, if any mindreader NEXT reads his self-altered memories, that 'proof' will only prove what Maverick believes not what he did.

OR

Arrange for evidence of his victimhood to be uncovered... like, say, being able to set up a witness who 'saw' him be brainwashed as well on a separate occassion.

OR

Work with Oroborous to let everyone's favorite criminal group take the responsibility: Oroborous finds/produces some NEXT who can easily be seen as responsible. Since we know that powers of the same type do exist, that's just a token-character introduction, not an impossibility.



It doesn't need to contradict. Tiger's suspicion has no proof besides the discrepancy between Maverick on TV and what Maverick told him in person, but that's the sort of discrepancy that can be explained by Maverick also being brainwashed in the interim. Since all the Heroes were also brainwashed in the interim, we know there was enough time for Maverick (Who was also at the dinner where... gasp! Everyone present forgot about Tiger!) to be hypothetically targeted.

The Heroes need to prove that Maverick is responsible for brainwashing the Heroes. That's going to include proving that Maverick himself wasn't a victim, as well as that he has the powers.

Fortunately, Kaede has provided the later.
Barnaby, though, was with Maverick during the time that Maverick told Kotetsu that he wasn't. And the truth of that hasn't even been covered up in Barnaby's memories. Furthermore, Barnaby knows the entire truth about Maverick. As BC said, he'd need to be eliminated for Maverick to be able to successfully cover up the truth.

For Maverick to be able to cover up his lie to Kotetsu he would need to create some crazy story that his memory was somehow being altered while at the same time he was experiencing the truth. In other words there's a serious discrepancy between what he was telling Kotetsu and what was going on at his house during that time.

Also you're forgetting about Lunatic as well, while he doesn't have the best relations with the heroes, he's not their enemy either. He clearly knows things and I doubt he's just going to let the truth slip away, even if he doesn't specifically know about Maverick.

Keep in mind I don't entirely doubt the possibility of what you say happening. It certainly could happen, but it would have to be one crazy convoluted story for it to work. Furthermore, I don't want Maverick escaping justice. We've learned the truth about him and he's whipped together this crazy antagonistic plan. For him not to be taken down would be a very anticlimactic and unsatisfying end to this season. We've got more Oroborous, would you really want Maverick continuing to be the Antagonist while there is so much more that can be delved into?
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Old 2011-08-23, 19:46   Link #1295
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by saravis View Post
Barnaby, though, was with Maverick during the time that Maverick told Kotetsu that he wasn't. And the truth of that hasn't even been covered up in Barnaby's memories.
And so Oroborous was manipulating Maverick before Tiger showed up in his room, so that it could manipulate events.


Quote:
Furthermore, Barnaby knows the entire truth about Maverick. As BC said, he'd need to be eliminated for Maverick to be able to successfully cover up the truth.
Not necessarily: we've seen repeatedly that Bunny's memory doesn't simply 'snap' back in place. Even when his memory about the murder was shifting, he only remembered the night of murder correctly with Samantha's proof... and Samantha's proof is once again lost. Barnaby needs to only not remember two things... and as long as there are no discrepancies to trigger him on those two nights...


Quote:
For Maverick to be able to cover up his lie to Kotetsu he would need to create some crazy story that his memory was somehow being altered while at the same time he was experiencing the truth. In other words there's a serious discrepancy between what he was telling Kotetsu and what was going on at his house during that time.
Or, more simply, Oroborous has been playing him like a fiddle. That's no more convulted than Maverick re-brainwashing anyone.

Quote:
Also you're forgetting about Lunatic as well, while he doesn't have the best relations with the heroes, he's not their enemy either. He clearly knows things and I doubt he's just going to let the truth slip away, even if he doesn't specifically know about Maverick.
That's all that he doesn't need to know about: if the conspiracy can be pinned on Oroborous as the responsible party, the truth he suspects can be explained.

Quote:
Keep in mind I don't entirely doubt the possibility of what you say happening. It certainly could happen, but it would have to be one crazy convoluted story for it to work. Furthermore, I don't want Maverick escaping justice. We've learned the truth about him and he's whipped together this crazy antagonistic plan. For him not to be taken down would be a very anticlimactic and unsatisfying end to this season. We've got more Oroborous, would you really want Maverick continuing to be the Antagonist while there is so much more that can be delved into?
This is as convulted as it needs to be:

Maverick: "Tiger, thank you for rescuing me and restoring my memories. I now realize Ourborous has been manipulating me for some time years, changing my memories at whim."

Tiger: "Oh, ok."

Kaede: "Dad, don't listen! I can prove he has mind-control powers!"

Maverick: Oh, snap.
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Old 2011-08-23, 20:33   Link #1296
saravis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Stuff
Its not just a simple matter of Oroborous playing Maverick like a fiddle, the issue is that he would need to act like an ongoing memory was being altered while he was experiencing that memory.

Scenario: Maverick believed that Barnaby wasn't at his house when he told Kotetsu that, but wait he goes home and voila there's Barnaby. Kotetsu calls him about his mistake about the pins, Maverick again believes that Barnaby isn't at his house, but voila Barnaby is still at his house. Wouldn't you start questioning WTF was going on if that was happening?

As for Lunatic not specifically knowing about Maverick, its pretty clear that he knows that this is an inside job with seeing Tiger's files being put into restricted status and attacking false Tiger, so it wouldn't take too much effort to start suspecting Maverick himself

Your final scenario is the only way I could see that believably happening as it doesn't give any time for people to question the truth.
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Last edited by saravis; 2011-08-23 at 20:43.
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Old 2011-08-23, 21:55   Link #1297
TheForsaken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saravis View Post
Scenario: Maverick believed that Barnaby wasn't at his house when he told Kotetsu that, but wait he goes home and voila there's Barnaby. Kotetsu calls him about his mistake about the pins, Maverick again believes that Barnaby isn't at his house, but voila Barnaby is still at his house. Wouldn't you start questioning WTF was going on if that was happening?
What if: It's true that Barnaby wasn't in Maverick's house, but kidnapped by the mastermind instead. Later the mastermind brought the brainwashed Barnaby to Maverick and altered his memory as well, making him believe that Barnaby's with him.
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Old 2011-08-24, 02:12   Link #1298
Jeffry2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
What if: It's true that Barnaby wasn't in Maverick's house, but kidnapped by the mastermind instead. Later the mastermind brought the brainwashed Barnaby to Maverick and altered his memory as well, making him believe that Barnaby's with him.
That's what I want to know. Maverick is now using Barnaby. So what happens NEXT? Could it be worse for him?
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Old 2011-08-24, 02:37   Link #1299
bakAnki
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So that was what the spoiler meant Origami transforms into something unexpected. Dude can turns into object, nice. And we see Dragon Kid's kungfu with that lightning, awesome!

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My face when Kaede directly ran into Maverick..

"HOLY S- NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOO!!! Don't say anything!! Don't mention anything!! Don don don DON'T!!!!"
I was the same.
But then I calmed down when he leaved her.
But theeen, I was worried again when Koutetsu scream her name on the preview >.<

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Originally Posted by -KarumA- View Post
New spoilers are out

Spoiler for duh.. for next episode:
Spoiler for comment:


Still pumped up for next episode though.
And I read that episode 24 and 25 is also going to be aired on theater on Japan, is that mean the TV will get 1-hour special finale too or they just replay the episode 24 before episode 25 for the theater event?
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Old 2011-08-24, 09:23   Link #1300
Jeffry2009
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Imagine that this is sorta like Star Wars Revenge of the sith where Anakin (Barnaby) joins the darkside with darth sidious (Maverick) and become a new apprentice after the defeat of Count Dooku (Jake Martinez).

Maverick: Barnaby....
Barnaby: Yes, master.
Maverick: Arise.....

*Barnaby comes out with the new suit*
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