AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Madoka Magica

Notices

View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Rating
Perfect 10 91 52.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 20.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 29 16.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 6.86%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-03-04, 16:23   Link #301
Kaoru Chujo
Kuno Misaki
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Another good episode, with its freight of surprises and horrors. Now it seems there is no way out: Madoka will become a magical girl to save Homura and the city.

I've never been sure that Kyuube is "evil," and now we know that in his own mind, he is acting for the good of the universe, even if he does end up sacrificing a few human girls in the process. From a single human's point of view, sure, he can be called "evil," since he certainly deceives and exploits. But how do we treat cattle? We deceive and exploit them.

There is certainly more to learn that could change my opinion: what does extending the life of the universe really mean? Who benefits most? What is Kyuube's race? It seems reasonable to me to try to destroy him, but to call him "evil" doesn't seem justified to me...yet.
__________________
Kuno Misaki 久野美咲 age 21. 2009 - King of Thorn (Alie). 2010 - Oreimo (Bridget). 2012 - Black Rock Shooter (Hiro). 2013 - Problem children (Melln). Ro-Kyu-Bu! SS (Mimi), Log Horizon (Serara), Galilei Donna (Grande Rosso). 2014 - Noragami (Keiichi), Escha and Logy (Kuu), Zvezda Plot (Hoshimiya Kate/Venera-sama), Wixoss (Tama), Mahouka Koukou (Kasuga Nanami), Flag o Oraretara (Kurumiko), Nanana (Saki), Seven Deadly Sins (Hawk).
Hashihime blog | Twitter @nakanokimi | autumn 2014 previews | autumn 2014 schedule |
characters/seiyuus: Sailor Moon Crystal | Akatsuki no Yona | Amagi Brilliant Park | Coffin-Princess Chaika | Cross Ange | Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai | Danna ga Nani ga Itteru | Denkigai no Honya-san | Donten ni Warau | Fate/Stay Night UBW | Le Fruit de la Grisaia | Gugure! Kokkuri-san | Inou Battle wa Nichijou-kei no Naka de | Madan no Ou to Vanadis | Orenchi no Furo Jijou | Seven Deadly Sins | Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso | Shirobako | Sora no Method | Tribe Cool Crew | Trinity Seven | Ushinawareta Mirai o Motomete | Wixoss
Kaoru Chujo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 16:25   Link #302
Crontica
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
As for Incubator, i would really love to know what would happen if he incubated soul gems instead of grief seeds.
__________________
Crontica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 16:30   Link #303
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I've never been sure that Kyuube is "evil," and now we know that in his own mind, he is acting for the good of the universe, even if he does end up sacrificing a few human girls in the process. From a single human's point of view, sure, he can be called "evil," since he certainly deceives and exploits. But how do we treat cattle? We deceive and exploit them.
KC, I consider you a very reasonable guy, and I like your contributions alot, so I hope you don't mind if I pick (on) you for a response. Please explain to me how we "know" that in his own mind, he's acting for the good of the universe.

...

If I visit you and tell you that I'm the empress of China, do you "know" that this is so?

What we _know_ is what QB has done. That there is a huge disconnect between what he peddled at the beginning and what he's been babbling in this ep. In the light of these facts, how can you attribute any trace of credibility to his explanations, which are - I hope we can agree about that at least - really outlandish and unlikely.
Mentar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 16:33   Link #304
FlareKnight
User of the "Fast Draw"
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to FlareKnight Send a message via MSN to FlareKnight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Another good episode, with its freight of surprises and horrors. Now it seems there is no way out: Madoka will become a magical girl to save Homura and the city.

I've never been sure that Kyuube is "evil," and now we know that in his own mind, he is acting for the good of the universe, even if he does end up sacrificing a few human girls in the process. From a single human's point of view, sure, he can be called "evil," since he certainly deceives and exploits. But how do we treat cattle? We deceive and exploit them.

There is certainly more to learn that could change my opinion: what does extending the life of the universe really mean? Who benefits most? What is Kyuube's race? It seems reasonable to me to try to destroy him, but to call him "evil" doesn't seem justified to me...yet.
I think the key problem here is assuming that Kyuube's explanation is correct and true. When did we see the entropy of the universe being affected by the destruction of a witch? It may be true, but just assuming that he's now decided to be completely open and honest with Madoka might be a stretch. After all his goal is a contract and Madoka becoming a witch to whatever end. If he paints a situation where her life which she hasn't seen in a positive light can be used for the benefit of the universe she might bite on the bait. She's lost so much, but hey she can be of use for the whole universe.

Right now no reason to trust some manipulative little thing that has been luring girls into these contracts. Information has rarely ever been offered by Kyuube. For someone claiming to not get human emotions he sure can manipulate them pretty well.
__________________
FlareKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 16:47   Link #305
Dharma
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kyrgyzstan, Bishkek
Age: 31
Send a message via ICQ to Dharma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
No, you're right and I completely agree. I'm also baffled by this behavior.

If he's telling the truth, he still needs to be stopped.
If he's lying, he definitely needs to be stopped.

So no matter what he says, you can't trust him and he needs to be stopped. And if you can't trust him, then you need to figure out what his real motives are or at least plan for the worst and hope.

It's not a difficult conclusion to come to but apparently some people are still grappling with it. In the end I think the only thing that will convince some is if Kyubey just comes right out and says "lol guys, I was screwing with you the whole time!".
Prove that QB's words can not be trusted by words. Until than you deliberately blinding yourself to possibility that his words can be trusted (but only by words, not by spirit).
While such blindness can be helpful, it can be harmful. May be he can't lie due to his race moral code or whatever they have. If it is the case, such possibility must be exploited to find out his goals, weaknesses and such. This exploit can be especially effective when enemy trying to put up a friendly face. Unfortunately that moment already wasted.
Like most effective things in existence, this concept can cut two ways. It may be smart of you to stay away from it. Just do not forget, what good for you doesn't necessarily good for everyone else.
__________________
Bravery is not a function of firepower.
Dharma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 16:55   Link #306
Irisiel
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Cuba reminds me of sexual predators. There, I said it. Specifically the ones with a taste for adolescent girls. Basically, they lure in their victims with toys, sweets and promises, then brainwash them through abuse and manipulation. Then, in court, they say that the girls willingly gave themselves to the predator.

Some really disgusting perverts claims that if they just get a few children to play with, all other children are safe from them. Most of the disgusting perverts has the view that what other perverts are doing is wrong and bad for the children, but what they're doing is good and pure and they would never hurt the children (unless the children made them do it by, I dunno, not wanting to have sex with them /sarcasm).

Cuba has a major difference, however, and it lays in how he believes that his species can make the decision for all of humanity.

Lets be realistic, if the universe is slowly ending, it still wont end for the next millions of years (unless Earth's stargazers are all blind). It'll be there when humans take to the stars, so don't kid yourselves; Cuba is not doing it so that he can leave a fresh universe for humanity to enjoy.

Which brings me to the next part: It is entirely likely that Earth, and our sun, will go boom before the universe does, and that humanity itself have gone to the next step of our evolution, and possibly even figured out how to harness the latent magical powers.

Cuba's species might believe that they have the right and foresight to kill our young and farm epidemics of depressions (what use is a universe we cannot enjoy? Since they want to leave it for us to enjoy and all, or so Cuba says), but they do not.

Is there any more condescending words than "we at the big people's table decided this, and your opinion doesn't count, yet we still want you to die for the universe because we say so, even though we have shown you no evidence of universal decay and destruction. If you do well, what's left of your species might even grow up enough to get a seat at our table!".

One of the reasons why Cuba targets little girls, is probably because adults would be waaay harder to manipulate into a contract in which they are on the losing end. Even when they're dying, because everyone knows that any contract signed under duress, drugs or deception are invalid, and that instead of standing over the dying Mami and requiring a contract to save her, Cuba is under moral and ethical obligation to help her, without contract, to the best of his abilities, and if he can't, he should get someone that can.

Cuba is contracting humans on Earth. Then he better play by our contracting rules and laws. Preferably following each country's laws, to put on a show of good will and respect for humanity's autonomy. If he cannot do that, he is a threat and an enemy and should be dealt with accordingly.
__________________
Irisiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:07   Link #307
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
Prove that QB's words can not be trusted by words. Until than you deliberately blinding yourself to possibility that his words can be trusted (but only by words, not by spirit.
What's that? It's a bird! It's a plane! It's.... the point!

The point is not trusting QB's words, it is trusting him in general. It's already been made clear he is a master of deceit. But remember, being deceitful doesn't exclusively single out just by telling lies. Being a manipulator or deceiver requires all sorts of tools and techniques to coax out the desired result. Yes, lies is the most obvious example, but if you paid any attention to real life, you would know that the truth & lies quandary is filled with grey areas too.

For example, I could omit important information, tell half-truths, or just plain refuse to say anything at all. I could use the situation to pressure the target, take advantage of their personality. I can misdirect, misguide, or create an intentional misunderstanding, by then I do not need to take responsibility to correct the situation. I can change the flow of a conversation away from "vital information" to another subject to avoid it entirely, or skirt around the main subject and focus on minor details instead of the big picture. I could make a "mistake" or make the situation ambiguous or vague if I wanted.

If we really wanted to play semantics, I could use my own "definition" to substitute key terms of the contract and I couldn't be faulted for lying.

The point is, QB to a certain extent has shown to use these techniques in fulfilling his contracts. It's the sort of underhanded, fine print, legalese flourishes that make QB a character that cannot be trusted.

I do not see why some people obstinate on the point that "QB has not told a lie", in the end what are you trying to say? That he can be someone you can trust? That everything he says or does can be taken at face value?
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:15   Link #308
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
You are assuming the fact in that statement is only "stopping the witches prevent them driving people to suicide". You ignored that "MG's purpose is to kill witches" part. It had changed from "MG's purpose is to kill witches" to "MG's purpose is to become witches".
And why can't both be true? Kyubey needs MG to kill Witches farm Grief Seeds, but he also needs them as a source of Witches for Grief Seeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Again, you ignore "Help me." Why does QB need to cry out for help? Clearly to create an impression that death will effect him so that it will paint himself as a helpless mascot creature in front of Madoka.
A cry for help does not explain his reasoning. He could very well just want to get Homura off his tail. The idea that "it will paint himself as a helpless mascot creature in front of Madoka" is a conclusion drawn by you, not a part of Kyubey's statement.

For example, a person who is testifying says that he pleads the 5th. Is the fact that he needed to plead the 5th incriminating evidence? Maybe, maybe not. However, you cannot make any assumptions on what exactly he is hiding with that statement.

The fact is that he asked for help, so he must have wanted it for a reason. But to paint a harmless image like you stated? Don't get ahead of yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
So when someone says I will leave you alone, he literally means leaving you alone for a moment? Is that how "leaving someone alone' normally being interpreted?
I certainly don't expect someone who claims to leave me alone to be leave me alone for good. I woul expect a few minutes, a few ours, a day, or a week depending on the issue. The time is subject to change. However, it's never expected to be permanent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
We just went from an explanation that MGs can keep on fighting precisely because they do not feel pain and how QB perceive that as an advantage because pain can impair their ability to fight. Now as a physical demonstration, QB put Sayaka in so much pain that she literally cannot do anything physically and you are saying it does not stop fighting if it was done to both Kyoko and Sayaka? It's like saying if I tie up both combatants arms and legs with ropes and yet that does not stop them from righting
Are you telling me that Kyubey has the ability to jump onto two moving, fighting Puella Magi, make contact with the body part that the Soul Gem is attached to, then activate the Soul Gem to incapacitate them?

Sayaka was caught off guard because Madoka was a friend and would have listened to her for a moment. Do you honestly expect that Kyubey will get that luxury? He cannot force Puella Magi to stop fighting. Your analogy is false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Again the lie is not whether or not it is possible but rather on whether he knows it is possible or not. He conveyed to Kyoko that he doesn't know when he clearly knows.
If Kyubey's lie is whether or not he knows of a possible way to save a Witch, then Kyubey would have directly told Kyoko that there was a way. He did not; Kyoko formed her own conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
You seem to be putting each sentence QB said in a vacuum to judge them factual. In that scenario, almost anything anyone said can be considered factual. When words are being uttered, they are not in a vacuum. Both the context and additional related info are to be taken into account on whether something being said is true or not. The words may be factual in a vacuum, but they are not truthful communication. Therefore, he spoke untruthfully with the intent to deceive.
I'm glad we have some common ground. If you acknowledge that they are at least factual in a vacuum, then it's important to note that just because Kyubey can mislead humans, it does not mean that he is free to say whatever he pleases. He makes sure that his statements are at least factually true. Whether the context and impications are true, which ultimately decides his trustworthiness, is another story.


Keep in mind how Madoka considers Kyubey her enemy now. She is not concerned whether Kyubey is a liar or not; in fact, she believed what he said. The point is that Kyubey is making humans suffer, not whether he lied or not.

Again, this moral evaluation of Kyubey's speech was interesting at the start of the series when it wasn't clear whether Kyubey was an ally or an enemy and a threat. Now that it is clear that Kyubey is the enemy and cannot be trusted, this discussion on whether Kyubey is lying or not is pointlessly pedantic.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:17   Link #309
Kaoru Chujo
Kuno Misaki
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
KC, I consider you a very reasonable guy, and I like your contributions alot, so I hope you don't mind if I pick (on) you for a response. Please explain to me how we "know" that in his own mind, he's acting for the good of the universe....
Lol. Fair enough. Let me restate that: "He has now stated an overarching purpose that could actually justify what he has done, depending on what extending the life of the universe really means." Sure, he is deceiving and mistreating human girls. But I have never been able to call him "evil," because we have not learnt much about his real motivations.

I have to add that I don't actually see much use for the English word "evil" in any context. It is a religious word, not a rational word. People can act extremely badly, but to call them "evil" seems to me like stating that one believes in the existence of the Devil, which I don't.

I also don't believe Hitler was "evil": he just did some very bad things. I prefer to judge people according to their own conscious motivations. But we still have the right as a society to defend ourselves and kill or imprison people who are a threat to our notions of good and of society. That is a separate matter.
__________________
Kuno Misaki 久野美咲 age 21. 2009 - King of Thorn (Alie). 2010 - Oreimo (Bridget). 2012 - Black Rock Shooter (Hiro). 2013 - Problem children (Melln). Ro-Kyu-Bu! SS (Mimi), Log Horizon (Serara), Galilei Donna (Grande Rosso). 2014 - Noragami (Keiichi), Escha and Logy (Kuu), Zvezda Plot (Hoshimiya Kate/Venera-sama), Wixoss (Tama), Mahouka Koukou (Kasuga Nanami), Flag o Oraretara (Kurumiko), Nanana (Saki), Seven Deadly Sins (Hawk).
Hashihime blog | Twitter @nakanokimi | autumn 2014 previews | autumn 2014 schedule |
characters/seiyuus: Sailor Moon Crystal | Akatsuki no Yona | Amagi Brilliant Park | Coffin-Princess Chaika | Cross Ange | Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai | Danna ga Nani ga Itteru | Denkigai no Honya-san | Donten ni Warau | Fate/Stay Night UBW | Le Fruit de la Grisaia | Gugure! Kokkuri-san | Inou Battle wa Nichijou-kei no Naka de | Madan no Ou to Vanadis | Orenchi no Furo Jijou | Seven Deadly Sins | Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso | Shirobako | Sora no Method | Tribe Cool Crew | Trinity Seven | Ushinawareta Mirai o Motomete | Wixoss
Kaoru Chujo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:17   Link #310
Dr. Casey
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
I've never blindly trusted Kyubey and think there have been times where he's full of crap (The most blatant example being the end of episode five where he claims that he can't do anything to stop Sayaka and Kyoko from fighting, so Madoka has to contract right then and there because that's totally the only solution whatsoever), but personally I think he's telling the truth about the whole entropy thing. My reasoning is more on a meta level than anything; the direction of the scene is too sincere for me to think that it will be tossed aside as Kyubey just lying out his ass to manipulate Madoka into forming a contract. The mood of the scene gives me the impression that we're supposed to be learning some really important stuff, that we're being given information meant to fill in some gaps and that after Kyubey's monologue the story is supposed to make a lot more sense. It's kind of the opposite of Sayaka's first death in episode six, where I might have been able to predict that Sayaka wasn't really gone because the scene was rather muted and halfhearted (I'm guessing either because the anime team couldn't pour that much emotion into the scene since they knew Sayaka would come back just a couple of minutes later, or thought that it would be a waste and they should save their wholehearted effort for Sayaka's real death - which of course was much better done).

I don't think Kyubey's an emotionless robot. He's shown an antagonistic attitude on occasion ("Yare yare, am I really that unwanted?" to Homura and Kyoko in episode 8), I think that he's capable of malice and most other emotions. I'm sure that he's still hiding things from Madoka and isn't someone that anyone should trust. I do believe there's some truth to the whole save the universe from entropy spiel, though.
Dr. Casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:17   Link #311
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
What's that? It's a bird! It's a plane! It's.... the point!

The point is not trusting QB's words, it is trusting him in general. It's already been made clear he is a master of deceit. But remember, being deceitful doesn't exclusively single out just by telling lies. Being a manipulator or deceiver requires all sorts of tools and techniques to coax out the desired result. Yes, lies is the most obvious example, but if you paid any attention to real life, you would know that the truth & lies quandary is filled with grey areas too.

For example, I could omit important information, tell half-truths, or just plain refuse to say anything at all. I could use the situation to pressure the target, take advantage of their personality. I can misdirect, misguide, or create an intentional misunderstanding, by then I do not need to take responsibility to correct the situation. I can change the flow of a conversation away from "vital information" to another subject to avoid it entirely, or skirt around the main subject and focus on minor details instead of the big picture. I could make a "mistake" or make the situation ambiguous or vague if I wanted.

If we really wanted to play semantics, I could use my own "definition" to substitute key terms of the contract and I couldn't be faulted for lying.

The point is, QB to a certain extent has shown to use these techniques in fulfilling his contracts. It's the sort of underhanded, fine print, legalese flourishes that make QB a character that cannot be trusted.

I do not see why some people obstinate on the point that "QB has not told a lie", in the end what are you trying to say? That he can be someone you can trust? That everything he says or does can be taken at face value?
I agree with this.

My point is that Kyubey cannot be taken at face value, but that does not mean his words have no value either, because he has not told a direct lie. There is some grey area here.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:24   Link #312
Kitsu Breaker
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
In the end, Sakura and Sayaka is canon pair in this show, have many feeling in the end
__________________
Kitsu Breaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:46   Link #313
jeroz
Art Block Specialist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
I think mentar got annoyed at the sci-fi elements, or the people on 4chan that trolls by claim they support kyubey's cause now.

I'd said it before and I'll say it again because apparently he didn't read my post

Firstly, It doesn't matter if kyubey's the savior of universe, or if he's even jesus reincarnation putting trials on those girls. The fact that he doesn't treat human lives as important makes him an asshole already and deserve to be dead. That and the fact that he doesn't seem to be too concerned about them. The point of the plot is not the fate of the universe, but the fate of those girls involved.

Secondly, we can't tell if he's telling the truth or not. There's no way to find evidence supporting or even against what he said. You can speculate that he's bullshiting, but you can't prove it other than "he lies before so he must be lying this time". Would you be better off if he says that he's a creature from the magical lands that just wants to create witches for some other reasons then? I like how he, assuming he's telling the truth, openly admits that his goal is to harvest those girls souls. It doesn't matter if it's "for the greater good" or some random stuff like that.

If we take step back and look at the meaning behind the message, it's that he feels good about what he does, and at the same time guilt trip Madoka into becoming a mahou shoujo. He can be sprouting other reasons and the effect will still be the same. My reaction towards him is still the same that he's an asshole.


I know if i do something to the brain it will cause some response, however, I don't have a fkin clue as to why that happens. Knowing how things will reaction does not mean you know why those things react that certain way. Statistics is a funny tool. It's just like explaining music to a deaf person. They can work out by statistics that certain chords, certain note combinations, sounds good to the audience, but they won't have an idea as to why they sounds good. Or let's even take cooking for example.
__________________
She's not Mary Sue, she's Hajime-su!
jeroz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 17:51   Link #314
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I agree with this.

My point is that Kyubey cannot be taken at face value, but that does not mean his words have no value either, because he has not told a direct lie. There is some grey area here.
Do i agree his word have value and contain useful information? Yes.
Has he told direct lies is something we will have to disagree on. But let me ask you this: What are your thoughts on the whole entropy revelation?
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 18:16   Link #315
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
Prove that QB's words can not be trusted by words. Until than you deliberately blinding yourself to possibility that his words can be trusted (but only by words, not by spirit).
I can direct that right back at you. Why would you deliberately blind yourself to the possibility that his words can't be trusted?

The entire concept of telling something that is half true is that it enables you to deflect any consequence of people trusting what you say. Because you KNEW that you left out information, because you KNEW that leaving out this information would completely change the reasoning of the person you were talking to, you are knowingly deceiving that person for reasons they are not aware of. Are you "technically" telling the truth? Yes. But you're lying because you are hold back relevant information for your own benefit. It's a lie of omission.

The entire concept of a contract is that both parties agree to terms, but because even this can be manipulated we developed the concept of "informed consent". Why? Because of the concept of bait and switch.

Kyubey KNEW that every girl he contracted would eventually die in combat or become a Witch. He chose to not inform any of the girls of this because it would reduce the number of girls who would consent to his contract. He KNEW that humans have an attachment to their souls. He chose to not tell any of them what a Soul Gem actually was until he was forced to. He KNEW that the entire system was designed to harvest energy by turning Magical Girls into Witches, yet he did not say anything about it until the girls found out the hard way.

There is no way that most people would agree to have those powers if they knew that their fate was to become the monsters they agreed to fight, and that this fate couldn't be changed without some kind of miracle that Kyubey claims doesn't exist.

Mami showed us that being a Magical Girl means literally putting your life on the line. Sayaka showed us the inevitable result of not being killed. Kyoko showed us that if given the choice, contracted girls would reject that fate. Homura shows us that some would even fight it. We have yet to see what Madoka will show us.

Through the entire show each episode has slowly shown us that Kyubey isn't just a magical being offering wishes for great power. He has shown us that he has an secret motive that he wouldn't divulge until he had to. You have to think about the progression of the plot here.

Homura comes from a time where Mami didn't die, Sakaya didn't contract, and Kyoko never appeared. Why do I say this? Because of Kyubey. He was able to find Madoka before all of this happened. Why do I say this? Because of Homura.

Homura's interference has shown Madoka, and us the audience, exactly why the Magical Girl system is corrupt, why it has greater benefit for Kyubey than the girls contracted. Even if you accept his rationalization that he did it for the greater good, he is still sending girls to doomed fates without them knowing what awaits them until after the contract. They don't know all the details when they agree. He turns that back at them by saying they never asked. This is called a bait and switch.

Because Homura interfered, Madoka now has knowledge she did not have in the time line Homura came from. She knows exactly what awaits her if she contracts. She'll become a great Magical Girl and then a horrible Witch, killing everyone. The girl who was so ready to contract just an episode ago to save her friends just told the same creature that he was her enemy. That speaks volumes. She doesn't buy his explanation and neither should we. He tricked girls into horrible fates.

Kyubey not understanding human values or not having emotions is a cop out. He sees a "lower life form" as a means to an end, targeting young females with limited knowledge and impressionable minds and tempting them with power and miracles without telling them of the price or his true intentions.

This is why I have said that his morality, his ability to tell the truth, his logic, all of it is pointless in the face of what he represents. He cannot be trusted. He is nothing more than a parasite, leeching off of another sentient living being for his own benefits. Good, bad...it doesn't matter. He needs to be stopped or it will be the end of the species.
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 18:19   Link #316
Crontica
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I agree with this.

My point is that Kyubey cannot be taken at face value, but that does not mean his words have no value either, because he has not told a direct lie. There is some grey area here.
How can you tell he hasn't been lying the entire time? Where's the proof that he has been telling the truth?

Pruella Magi for instance, where is the proof that the name is the globally accepted term for the people who designed the system / race that made it?

Where is the proof that the word witch is the true term for what has happened so far?

Soul gem aside, how do we not know that the term grief seeds is simply a darkened version of ones soul, QB was so fast to hide them that we don't know if it can be used to re-summon the fallen / control the souls he has collected so far / is using the grief seeds to create the witch epidemic to lull more girls into contracting him.
__________________
Crontica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 18:25   Link #317
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 24
Seriously, it doesn't matter whether or not QB is evil or good, or whether he says nothing but truth or lies. The simple fact is that he is using people for his own goals. That should ensure that no one trusts him.
__________________




Illusion, illusion, this is illusion. It cannot harm me.
Endscape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 18:37   Link #318
DasDingus
Dango Daikaizoku
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southern California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And this - excuse me - is complete nonsense. He has been masterfully using human emotions throughout the entire show, multiple times. He has purposely applied emotional pressure to the girls to make them do exactly what he wanted. He knew exactly which emotional stimulus he could exploit for yet another run on a contract. Yet - at the same time - he claims that he doesn't understand them at all. Which is BS. It's a LIE. You cannot use human emotions so masterfully for your own gain without understanding them.
You aren't addressing the point I'm getting at. He absolutely has a keen understanding of how to get humans to elicit certain emotions. He knows exactly what kind of situations will cause what kind of emotions. He is a master manipulator. What I am saying he doesn't understand is what these emotions mean to humans personally. When a human sees somebody they cared for die and they start to cry we, as humans, know what that means in terms of the pain that person is going through because we possess the same type of emotions as that other human does. QB, on the other hand, does not possess such emotions. He sees a girl crying and it's just chemical reactions to him. He understands the inputs that result in the crying, but he doesn't understand the pain that crying indicates. The girls can say to him "I'm hurting" or "This is wrong" all they want but their concept of emotional pain or right and wrong do not mean anything to QB. As far as he's concerned they're just cogs in the machine that need to be oiled to keep them doing their job.

Quote:
This is what he SAYS. But we know for a fact now that what he says has NO MEANING. He is an unmasked cheater who has been tricking little unsuspecting girls, and who he now admits are no more than "power sources" to him. To believe anything he says at this point of time, after what we know he has done all the time, is STUPID.
Now that's jut patently untrue. What QB says has plenty of meaning. Up to this point everything he has said has been literally true. Now obviously he has intentionally left things out to manipulate the girls, but each thing he said is true in the most literal interpretation of the word. So if we accept that what he tells us is true on some level then that means that he is harvesting energy from magical girls and that energy is contributing to preventing the heat death of the universe. We don't know if that's the only thing he gains out of this. We don't know how imminent a threat this heat death is. We don't know if there's any other way to prevent this heat death. All we know is that what he said, and only what he said, is true. Inferring anything from it would be stupid as you said, but saying that what he said is an outright falsehood would be even stupider.
__________________
DasDingus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 18:42   Link #319
jeroz
Art Block Specialist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
How can you tell he hasn't been lying the entire time? Where's the proof that he has been telling the truth?

Pruella Magi for instance, where is the proof that the name is the globally accepted term for the people who designed the system / race that made it?

Where is the proof that the word witch is the true term for what has happened so far?
If that's the case might as well make this whole story a dream sequence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
Soul gem aside, how do we not know that the term grief seeds is simply a darkened version of ones soul, QB was so fast to hide them that we don't know if it can be used to re-summon the fallen / control the souls he has collected so far / is using the grief seeds to create the witch epidemic to lull more girls into contracting him.
It's not proven to be impossible yet. However we saw how the grief seed hatch from the soul gem, the shell broke for the thing to come out. It's just like a humpty dumpty.
__________________
She's not Mary Sue, she's Hajime-su!
jeroz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-04, 18:46   Link #320
anselfir
Style Über Alles
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC/Chicago
i expected better from kyubee's character. as it stands it doesn't merit much discussion because of how cliche and thin his whole scheme is.
__________________
anselfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.