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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Rating
Perfect 10 91 52.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 20.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 29 16.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 6.86%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-07, 22:23   Link #561
Crontica
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For me it's.
Homura = Hanyuu
Madoka = Rika
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Old 2011-03-08, 02:09   Link #562
Jaden
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Oh, QB is lying, all right...the way he put it is: I'm just taking a little bit of magic from the shadows to increase the universe's longetivity. Totally inconsequential and altruistic.

In truth it's: I don't really understand magic, so I'm running an experiment to bring about the strongest witch possible and see if her magic is powerful enough to rewrite the laws of the universe...no way to tell what's gonna happen though..tihi.

I mean, what he's doing is basically a negative spiral. Eventually a strong magical girl turns into a strong witch, and you need a stronger magical girl to defeat it, who in turn becomes an even stronger witch...continue the cycle for as long as possible until you come up with the ultimate witch that Earth can produce.

So maybe Homura isn't even powerful. In the future you just need that much magic power or you can't even face an average witch. And already time travel has been achieved so QB is well on the way to his goal it would seem. In fact, if you had time travel, why would you even have to worry about entropy?
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Old 2011-03-08, 08:20   Link #563
ruurguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
So maybe Homura isn't even powerful. In the future you just need that much magic power or you can't even face an average witch. And already time travel has been achieved so QB is well on the way to his goal it would seem. In fact, if you had time travel, why would you even have to worry about entropy?
Well, assuming that Homura's ability to "time travel" was acquired by a wish, that would limit the ability to Homura who:

1) Isn't exactly friends with QB. As in actively trying to stop at least the Madoka plan.
2) Is limited to Magic girls and thus, given that supposedly QB's race has no emotions and can't be magic girls, doesn't really benefit them.

The evidence of this is based on QB's comment that Homura's ability was time manipulation magic. He then surmised that Homura was not from this timeline, basically implying that Homura was a Magical Girl from another time and her time manipulation magic was a result of her wish (like Sayaka's higher regen was a result of her wish to "heal" Kamijou). If these facts are true, it seems to behoove them to worry about "entropy" since they can't make use of said time magic. (My view on entropy is that the actual term is irrelevant, it's just some mysterious magical force that can't be stopped by other means in this series and that people stuck up on the sci fi aspect of it are taking it a bit too seriously. And well I like sci fi.).
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Old 2011-03-08, 08:32   Link #564
hyperborealis
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Actually, QB's entropy explanation is an inside joke on writing for animes or mangas--since writing amounts to one definite way to convert the emotion of pubescent girls into money. Come to think of it, writers are always killing off young girls in their stories n order to avoid the death of their little creative universes...You can just see the writers sitting around talking, holding their heads, knowing that their next car payment or kid's dentist bill rests squarely on whether enough 13 year-olds get excited by what they've written.

It's a joke, but a pretty rueful one.

The writers can do whatever they want with QB, but I wonder if they don't have some sympathy for the devil, since the devil is awfully like themselves...
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Old 2011-03-08, 08:45   Link #565
MartianMage
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So I rewatched the episode again looking for random stuffs and well I actually caught an interesting detail...

look at the time
QB appears

and in case you don't know "3 a.m. [it is] the devil's hour, as opposed to 3 p.m., when Jesus was said to have been crucified" and "In England, the witching hour begins at 3am and runs till 4am. The hour before midnight is also used for the practice of witchcraft."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witching_hour

Coincidence or intentional? I think it's an interesting detail.
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Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2011-03-08, 09:28   Link #566
ruurguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
So I rewatched the episode again looking for random stuffs and well I actually caught an interesting detail...

look at the time
QB appears

and in case you don't know "3 a.m. [it is] the devil's hour, as opposed to 3 p.m., when Jesus was said to have been crucified" and "In England, the witching hour begins at 3am and runs till 4am. The hour before midnight is also used for the practice of witchcraft."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witching_hour

Coincidence or intentional? I think it's an interesting detail.
Nice catch heh. In my opinion, almost certainly intentional, but probably insignificant story-wise. It was probably put in just to reference the witching hour but I'm not sure it will actually be used as a plot element or not.
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Old 2011-03-08, 13:03   Link #567
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Oh, QB is lying, all right...the way he put it is: I'm just taking a little bit of magic from the shadows to increase the universe's longetivity. Totally inconsequential and altruistic.

In truth it's: I don't really understand magic, so I'm running an experiment to bring about the strongest witch possible and see if her magic is powerful enough to rewrite the laws of the universe...no way to tell what's gonna happen though..tihi.

I mean, what he's doing is basically a negative spiral. Eventually a strong magical girl turns into a strong witch, and you need a stronger magical girl to defeat it, who in turn becomes an even stronger witch...continue the cycle for as long as possible until you come up with the ultimate witch that Earth can produce.

So maybe Homura isn't even powerful. In the future you just need that much magic power or you can't even face an average witch. And already time travel has been achieved so QB is well on the way to his goal it would seem. In fact, if you had time travel, why would you even have to worry about entropy?
You don't need a strong magical girl to defeat a strong witch. Magical girls can work together (even though they prefer not to). Witches are on their own.
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Old 2011-03-08, 17:17   Link #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
For me it's.
Homura = Hanyuu
Madoka = Rika
Wouldn't it be the other way around since Hanyuu's the more timid indecisive one. But then I guess Homura's the one with the powers...
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2011-03-08 at 21:38.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:10   Link #569
Crontica
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Wouldn't it be the other way around since Hanyuu's the more timid indecisive ones. But then I guess Homura's the one with the powers...
If we make it Homura = Rika then Madoka is either Satoko or Kenichi... hmmmmmm since Madoka and Satoko's personalties are exact opposites lets go with Kenichi.
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Old 2011-03-08, 21:39   Link #570
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Sigh, nobody wants to be Satoko.
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Old 2011-03-09, 08:35   Link #571
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Since we suddenly have an outpour of scientific debate: Occam's Razor.

I maintain that QB is flat-out lying. Urobuchi Gen is having fun on the True Believer In QB's Honesty (tm)'s expense. There's compelling circumstantial evidence for that. And it's a much more logical and simpler explanation than all the sad attempts to make the entropy alien theory fit somehow.
Occam's Razor doesn't really apply to this situation and if anything, still supports the notion that QB's words can be taken at facevalue.

Also, simplicity doesn't always mean that it is correct. When it comes to works of fictions, it's very difficult to apply a scientific "principle".
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Old 2011-03-09, 11:15   Link #572
Wakan Tanka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato View Post
So I rewatched the episode again looking for random stuffs and well I actually caught an interesting detail...

look at the time
QB appears

and in case you don't know "3 a.m. [it is] the devil's hour, as opposed to 3 p.m., when Jesus was said to have been crucified" and "In England, the witching hour begins at 3am and runs till 4am. The hour before midnight is also used for the practice of witchcraft."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witching_hour

Coincidence or intentional? I think it's an interesting detail.



Interestin' one...
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Old 2011-03-09, 15:13   Link #573
Deconstructor
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I am sure people have noticed, but the episode titles seem to be spoken by characters.

Madoka
Episode 1: "It Feels as if I Met Her in a Dream..."
Episode 2: "That Sounds Really Wonderful"

Mami
Episode 3: "I'm Not Afraid Anymore"

Sayaka
Episode 4: "Miracles and Magic, They Both Exist"
Episode 5: "I Have Absolutely No Regrets"
Episode 8: "I've Been Such a Fool"

Kyoko
Episode 6: "This Just Isn't Right"
Episode 7: "Can you Face your True Feelings?"
Episode 9: "That, I Will Not Allow"

Episode 10 is entitled "I Can't Depend on Anyone Anymore." Wonder who that would be...
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Old 2011-03-09, 15:32   Link #574
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In case you're serious, it's about Homura because 1) she was the one who said the line and 2) her voice actor also pointed towards that. Btw. it's more like "I won't depend on anyone anymore..."
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Old 2011-03-09, 19:40   Link #575
Eisdrache
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Random thoughts:
For every person you save another one will die.
Sayaka saved Kamijou and Kyouko but killed herself and Kyouko.
In the end she's +- 0
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Old 2011-03-10, 00:39   Link #576
hyperborealis
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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Random thoughts:
For every person you save another one will die.
Sayaka saved Kamijou and Kyouko but killed herself and Kyouko.
In the end she's +- 0
Yes. Everything happens in balance.

Sayaka: "Whenever I wish for someone to be happy, someone else has to suffer as much. / That's what it means to be a Puella Magi."

Or, again, Madoka: "Why? / She [Sayaka] wanted to protect people from witches... / She wanted to become a hero of justice... / That's the kind of Puella Magi she wanted to be... / And yet..." Homura: "She took the burden of the curse equal to that wish. / She will live on now causing suffering just as much as she was helping others earlier. / [...] Do you understand now? / The truth behind what you admired so much."

Nothing is got for nothing. The happiness of one has to be paid for by the suffering of another. The wish to be a Magical Girl opens up the possibility of its opposite, the witch; and all the good the mahou shoujo does is balanced by the suffering the witch causes. The net is always zero.
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Old 2011-03-10, 23:02   Link #577
molitar
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Damn won't she stop listening to that evil QB! Secondly she should post the truth about QB and the evil of his race and what they promise vs the truth. Ruin QB plan by making it widely public on the internet and spread the rumors to stop him from playing with mankind.
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Old 2011-03-12, 10:09   Link #578
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Dawnbringerz View Post
I see a Mami deja vu
Also, since its obvious Homura is going to die next episode.

Which kind of death will be?
I can't wait!!! >_<
It must be a magnificient death.
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Old 2011-03-14, 04:20   Link #579
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I am incredibly late in catching up to these two latest episodes. There have certainly been some major and very interesting revelations. Damn, though, if Hyperborealis hasn't in this thread put forward everything I wanted to say and more much more eloquently than I think I could've managed.

As far as the new revelations about things like "entropy" and "aliens". Other posters have already made good arguments about how they add to the show's thematic coherency. Not that I can claim to have predicted either of these at all, and neither do I wish to claim that the following is especially meaningful, but I am amused and gratified that circumstantially, coincidentally, and somehow presciently I seem to have brought up both those precise words in my episode 8 commentary. In no way were they applied explicitly to predictions or plot analysis of course--but again I am talking about the show's thematic consistency .

Hyperborealis has expressed just dazzlingly my conception of this show as a reflection of "reality's morals", the nature of gain and intentions and self-accountability, and my hopes for this story to touch upon our lives in the real world as a tale of living with hope and integrity even in a world where grief and joy come to all humans, good and bad alike. It is a hopeful ending in even a universe where 'evils' like Kyuubey can't be defeated, where 'evil' (or 'grief' or 'sadness' as a part of life and nature) is a fate or inevitability, that I am looking for this show's true catharsis, as a reflection of the real lives and world we all confront and live in. Kyuubey's 'evil' is merely a reflection of the suffering and misinformation and helplessness that does or will exist in our own lives, and it is the girls' and especially Madoka's ability to move beyond that--which will be the real moral of the story.

To go back to thematic consistency. Kyuubey as an 'alien' represents the cold, objective perspective of the natural world, where, against all our ideals of faith and justice and good intentions and genuine meaning, our feelings of self-entitlement to happiness can be turned against us. 'Entropy' reinforces a fundamental truth of our world, where nothing can actually be got from nothing, where everything has a cost, and a gain in one place equates to a loss elsewhere. As Kyuubey harvests energy for the good of the universe, this 'free' emotional energy from humans is really not arising from nowhere--that good, in fact, is being paid in direct proportion by the suffering of these young girls we have come to follow. And this, as well, is simply life/reality. Our own comforts, livelihoods, freedoms right now are also most definately being paid on the backs of others; and we too, in this vast universe, may at some point in our existences also have our joy trampled for someone else's sake. How then do we live? Selfishly, hoarding for our own gain, and striking out at anything that threatens us? Or blindly, clinging to our idealism, hurtling headlong into the earth as reality catches up with us? This is the question Madoka Magica is confronting, in more direct and strongly a manner than I have almost ever seen in a piece of entertainment media.

Kyouko in this episode offers a poignant and relevant answer. Discard your hindrances: live--and die, then--by the one thing you truly care for. Powerful as this idea is, it has merely trapped Homura in an endless recursion of suffering and sent Kyouko to die at the hands of a witch which cannot even recognize her. In the end, it will probably be Madoka who shows us the answer; that is if I and Hyperborealis are right about this show's themes, and I hope we are. If I may speculate, furthermore, the thought has just occurred to me that that answer may lie in the words Madoka's mother gave to her: to learn to let go, make mistakes, and let something wrong happen. Perhaps, indeed, to be an adult means to accept loss, be resilient, and move on, allowing necessary evils to pass by for things more important. Indeed, we might have even already received an answer, inasmuch as it has been said (by the series director, I believe) that Kyuubey as he is now survives through the end of the series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guuchan View Post
Before I start, let me state my take on Kyuubee's words: I was pretty sure Kyuubee didn't lie till last episode, but in this episode he has gone beyond "clever choice of words". He can say something then say another thing to make that something interpreted in a totally different way, so good job Kyuubee, you manage to kill your credibility in one episode (I think I'm hearing someone says "did he have any to begin with?" ). Well, I'm not calling him a liar just yet, but I really can care less what he says anymore.

Having that said, if you would like to continue the subject of entropy/sci-fi Mahou Shoujo/Kyuubee is evil or not, then the following might be a good reference to what you are really discussing on:

Spoiler:
On a separate note, I just wanted to draw out an idea which arose from this translation of Kyuubey/Madoka's conversation: it seems that it is the transition of hope to despair which generates a magical girl's energy. Perhaps, as a container, a Soul Gem forms representing a person's capacity for hope; this hope energy is then expended as Puella Magi's do positive work casting magic. As the Soul Gem empties, and the consumed hope is slowly converted to despair, grief begins to fill up the container. Eventually, as the Soul Gem is entirely filled with darkness, it becomes instead a container for grief, i.e. a Grief Seed. In such a case, a Grief Seeds capacity is directly related to how much hope the Soul Gem could hold, which is in turn related to the initial hope of the magical girl. Madoka's strength, then, arises from the hope she can place behind a wish she makes--the extent of her desire for happiness. The greater the happiness she dares to wish into the world, the greater the hope and despair the Soul Gem will eventually generate.

(I think it is indeed the Grief Seed, and not the transformation itself, which contains Kyuubey's desired energy. This idea seems somewhat dubious going on the information from this and the next episode. I will wait until episodes 11 and 12 to confirm, though, as this would currently give the show more conceptual consistency.)

:P Maybe I will repost the latter parts of this post to the speculation thread.
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Great shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-03-14 at 04:37.
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Old 2011-03-20, 23:57   Link #580
Ascendant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Oh, QB is lying, all right...the way he put it is: I'm just taking a little bit of magic from the shadows to increase the universe's longetivity. Totally inconsequential and altruistic.

In truth it's: I don't really understand magic, so I'm running an experiment to bring about the strongest witch possible and see if her magic is powerful enough to rewrite the laws of the universe...no way to tell what's gonna happen though..tihi.

I mean, what he's doing is basically a negative spiral. Eventually a strong magical girl turns into a strong witch, and you need a stronger magical girl to defeat it, who in turn becomes an even stronger witch...continue the cycle for as long as possible until you come up with the ultimate witch that Earth can produce.

So maybe Homura isn't even powerful. In the future you just need that much magic power or you can't even face an average witch. And already time travel has been achieved so QB is well on the way to his goal it would seem. In fact, if you had time travel, why would you even have to worry about entropy?
The entropy explanation doesn't really make sense to me. The energy production needs to be sustainable for it to be a real solution to the heat death problem, but QB doesn't seem to even care that his "energy farm" spirals out of control and gets wiped out by one of his creations. Even if his race has multiple farms, surely it would be prudent to put in at least some effort to sustain this one? Although, whether that's QB lying or simply another example of fuzzy anime logic I can't tell. I suspect the explanation isn't really that important, but rather it's about the fact that some force is inevitably pushing them towards becoming witches, for a cause that is almost completely irrelevant to them, just to highlight their tragic circumstance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Yes. Everything happens in balance.

Sayaka: "Whenever I wish for someone to be happy, someone else has to suffer as much. / That's what it means to be a Puella Magi."

Or, again, Madoka: "Why? / She [Sayaka] wanted to protect people from witches... / She wanted to become a hero of justice... / That's the kind of Puella Magi she wanted to be... / And yet..." Homura: "She took the burden of the curse equal to that wish. / She will live on now causing suffering just as much as she was helping others earlier. / [...] Do you understand now? / The truth behind what you admired so much."

Nothing is got for nothing. The happiness of one has to be paid for by the suffering of another. The wish to be a Magical Girl opens up the possibility of its opposite, the witch; and all the good the mahou shoujo does is balanced by the suffering the witch causes. The net is always zero.
Speaking of the concept of "balance", why is it that QB's race can break balance and get energy out of nothing? IMO because they aren't getting energy for free. Their actions cause more suffering and deaths than they bring happiness. In fact if left unchecked, they eventually drive the planet into extinction. They are getting energy from human suffering. They only think they are getting energy for free because they lack emotion and thus empathy to understand suffering. The MG system does not handle "karma" naturally and represents a perversion of balance.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-03-21 at 12:04. Reason: Let's be mindful of the double-posting when just editing your post is sufficent.
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