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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Rating
Perfect 10 91 52.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 20.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 29 16.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 6.86%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-03, 21:53   Link #101
Malkuth
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QB's exposition, kind of ruined the episode for me. Dunno, it might be again troll-subs, since my japansese are nowhere near understanding such long-winded sentences; but he sounded just silly to the point of acting out-of-character.

Also it's a shame Sayaka infected Kyouko with her silly ideals and dragged her with her to a pointless death... not even compensating for the universal entropy issue
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Old 2011-03-03, 21:55   Link #102
creb
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
As a side note, Kyubei realy should take over a tv station, explain everything and see who think's it's a good idea to die so they can volunteer as their life is worth about 1 in 6 billion. Surely those who agree with him would be first in line?
Well, it's QB, so he'd probably omit the information that humanity will have been long recycled into star dust more times over than they could comprehend before the universe ever gained enough entropy to cause heat death.

So, I'm sure he'd sucker some people who don't remember basic chemistry/physics into enough of a panic to volunteer their life.
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Old 2011-03-03, 21:57   Link #103
taofd
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Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
noooo Kyoko, it was cute watching you eat.

Sayaka kind of beat her up really easily...but it seems like Kyoko wasn't really trying to beat her. And Kyoko wanted to go out on her own terms instead of eventually turning into a witch or getting killed directly by one.

Kyubei as most expected, is 'evil' as far as humans are concerned.wi

Madoka's wish:

Kyubei: What's your wish?
Madoka: I wish...that you had a heart.
Kyubei: *tear rolls down cheek*

*Kyubei explodes*
WINNNNNNNNNNNNN

Although actually, knowing QB, it'd be more like: "Okay, now I have an organ that circulates blood, so what?"

You'd have to phrase it as: "I wish you knew what it was like to be a human being!"

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Originally Posted by creb View Post
Well, it's QB, so he'd probably omit the information that humanity will have been long recycled into star dust more times over than they could comprehend before the universe ever gained enough entropy to cause heat death.

So, I'm sure he'd sucker some people who don't remember basic chemistry/physics into enough of a panic to volunteer their life.
Why doesn't he just get the people who are suicidal? I'm sure Japan, Lithuania, and South Korea are perfect places to harvest...

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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
QB's exposition, kind of ruined the episode for me. Dunno, it might be again troll-subs, since my japansese are nowhere near understanding such long-winded sentences; but he sounded just silly to the point of acting out-of-character.

Also it's a shame Sayaka infected Kyouko with her silly ideals and dragged her with her to a pointless death... not even compensating for the universal entropy issue
Don't believe me now, but Sayaka was the spark, Kyouko became the flame, and Madoka will carry the torch.

We've hit rock-bottom gentlemen, the only way out now, is up!

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-03-04 at 04:44.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:00   Link #104
Reckoner
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Just finished the episode. For some reason I didn't like this episode as much as man yof the previous, but still pretty good nonetheless 8/10.

Some comments....
--
So it seems Kyube is operating for what he calls "the greater" good of the universe by combating entropy.

However, at the same time he goes around clearly deceiving the girls, manipulating their emotions so they end up contracting and eventually turning into witches.

If we look at this situation with cold logic, and take Kyube's information at face value (Though he has zero credibility at this point), then we could say that he is simply acting for the good of his species. However, the good of his species is not necessarily the good for our species.

Under human values in general, his actions are wrong, and undeniably evil.

------

Kyoko pretty much rage quitted the life of a magical girl. Sayaka's naivety rubbed off on her, and led her to her own demise. I can't knock her for her beliefs, but sacrificing one's self is never the answer.

---

Poor Homura can't catch a break. She constantly gives warnings, and tries to stop people from taking foolish actions, but time and time again, they fail to listen to her. She's often accused of not being human, to which she replies she is not, but clearly she is emotional inside based upon the tears last episode and the way she reacted to Kyoko's death.

Everything right now is pointing towards the first scene of this anime being a glimpse of the future. That conversation almost fits perfectly for the situation they're about to be in.

---

Madoka clearly just doesn't get it. She needs to have more self-respect, to value her self. Homura said all the right words to her last episode, but she still pays no heeds. It's unfortunate.

----
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:02   Link #105
DasDingus
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Hmm, the buggers and hive queen in Ender's universe is totally different from QB. Once they came to understand human's individuality and value systems. they forgive our attempted genocide and made peace. QB despite learning from humans and studied us to have a limited understanding continue to practice their human sacrifice. The hive mind had a respect for other specie's morals and choose to co-exist. QB don't give a damn and just does what ever he wants under the justification of having different values and saving the universe.
Isn't it possible that Kyuubey and his species don't understand the concept of what humans are going through when somebody they care about dies prematurely? Theoretically whatever holds the life force behind Kyuubey has never been killed. We don't know if there's just one behind him or if there are many, but if all he knows is that a body is just a terminal whose value is determined relative to the population as a whole then he has no reason not to continue. A human can "think" all the pain they want to try to make Kyuubey understand but his species has no concept of the pain the magical girls go through. It's like trying to explain the color red to somebody who was born blind.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:10   Link #106
ThereminVox
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Anyone else feel like maybe Kyubey's parting shot at Madoka was a guilt-trip?

Like, "If you ever feel like your life isn't more important than saving the universe, call me"?

That might explain why she was asking Kyoko if she thought she was a coward.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:16   Link #107
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Heh Bokurano reference with the chairs

Episode itself: What do wheels have to do with witch Sayaka. Kyoko really fufilled her death flag. Homura using a pink soul gem: Homura=Madoka++, Homura holding Madoka's gem++. It may end up as the way for Madoka to access MS power without using a wish
The Wheel of Fate is Turning..!
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:19   Link #108
creb
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Originally Posted by ThereminVox View Post
Anyone else feel like maybe Kyubey's parting shot at Madoka was a guilt-trip?

Like, "If you ever feel like your life isn't more important than saving the universe, call me"?

That might explain why she was asking Kyoko if she thought she was a coward.
She did say she was never good at anything, including academics, so it's certainly possible she actually thinks entropy of the universe is an actual problem that can be felt by humanity.

But, that's just me being tongue-in-cheek.

She's clearly not that stupid (that rich school did her some good here!), shown clearly when she told QB in despair that it was a silly reason for Sayaka/Mami dying.

So, to answer your question, she clearly knows she's been passively standing on the sidelines all this time. She doesn't know what she can do, which is why when Kyoko offers this bit of hope, she grasps it. However, it must have compounded her feelings of inadequacy that she didn't even think of it herself, hence the coward question.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:30   Link #109
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Don't believe me now, but Sayaka was the spark, Kyouko became the flame, and Madoka will carry the torch.
You're right, I don't

I hope we don't get any love & friendship ending, it's SHAFT X Urobuchi Gen afterall, it should be adult, bleak and nihilistic

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We've hit rock-bottom gentlemen, the only way out now, is up!
Not really, still they have not done much with Madoka's family, her parents, and especially her mother have a great potential for Walpurgis Nacht victims
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:38   Link #110
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by DasDingus View Post
Isn't it possible that Kyuubey and his species don't understand the concept of what humans are going through when somebody they care about dies prematurely? Theoretically whatever holds the life force behind Kyuubey has never been killed. We don't know if there's just one behind him or if there are many, but if all he knows is that a body is just a terminal whose value is determined relative to the population as a whole then he has no reason not to continue. A human can "think" all the pain they want to try to make Kyuubey understand but his species has no concept of the pain the magical girls go through. It's like trying to explain the color red to somebody who was born blind.
It doesn't matter what QB can feel, he KNOWS from the hundreds of girls he sacrificed, that none of them really liked what he did to them once they found out the truth. But he kept making new contracts anyway, and withheld important information even though he knows the girls would have liked to know.

So it is a fact that QB knows he is screwing the girls over with his contracts, he just doesn't care. Because nothing matters as long as he gets his contract. He had done this often enough to see a pattern by now.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:40   Link #111
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This episode reminds me the premise of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Of course, the novel is meant to be humorous. Nevertheless, the aliens don't give a d**n to Earthlings if Earthlings are in the alien's way for their objectives x_X.

In the end, one gets the choice make a nasty action humorous or into a tragedy.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:43   Link #112
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My take on QB's explanation: its quite possible entropy is becoming a problem in the universe because his race and the countless other races in the universe are making it a problem. I think that QB's race is sucking the universe dry and is trying to rectify that to survive by using little girls like reactors. Heck, the defeated grief seeds are like used up nuclear waste. So far, we have not seen QB straight out lie; has only left out bits he felt were "unimportant" at the time. Of course he'd tell about the entropy and not give the reason why its become as bad as it is.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:45   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It doesn't matter what QB can feel, he KNOWS from the hundreds of girls he sacrificed, that none of them really liked what he did to them once they found out the truth. But he kept making new contracts anyway, and withheld important information even though he knows the girls would have liked to know.

So it is a fact that QB knows he is screwing the girls over with his contracts, he just doesn't care. Because nothing matters as long as he gets his contract. He had done this often enough to see a pattern by now.
So what? if not for evil QB, Mami would be dead years ago never again making friends and feeling happy; Kyouko would have starved to death, never experiencing any emotional fullfillment; and Kamijio would have been depressed and without a nice girlfriend*. As it said some episodes earlier, the girls' services are fully compensated with the fullfillment of their wishes

* Granted, last one did not turn out good for Sayaka, but she is only to blame for being a stupid idealist, while in fact she was just selfish, therefore becoming a witch, unlike the other two, who at least died truthful to their nature.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:46   Link #114
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You're right, I don't

I hope we don't get any love & friendship ending, it's SHAFT X Urobuchi Gen afterall, it should be adult, bleak and nihilistic
SHAFT can make some really serious works. Urobuchi Gen butchers the characters. Kajiura Yuki makes dark-atmosphered music (mostly; some exceptions exist). But you forget that we have Aoki Ume. When the proverbial Pandora's box loose all its hells, Hope remains at the bottom.

Ume-sensei.

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Not really, still they have not done much with Madoka's family, her parents, and especially her mother have a great potential for Walpurgis Nacht victims
Now I really, really hate you.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:46   Link #115
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She did say she was never good at anything, including academics, so it's certainly possible she actually thinks entropy of the universe is an actual problem that can be felt by humanity.

But, that's just me being tongue-in-cheek.

She's clearly not that stupid (that rich school did her some good here!), shown clearly when she told QB in despair that it was a silly reason for Sayaka/Mami dying.

So, to answer your question, she clearly knows she's been passively standing on the sidelines all this time. She doesn't know what she can do, which is why when Kyoko offers this bit of hope, she grasps it. However, it must have compounded her feelings of inadequacy that she didn't even think of it herself, hence the coward question.
廃怯少女 まどか☆マギカ
"wavering girl Madoka Magica
"廃怯" (hai-kyou, cowardice, hesitation)
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:48   Link #116
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I recommend you go read wikipedia's article on utilitarianism.
Hardly matters when QB acknowledges that humans reproduce at an astounding rate.

Being the only species to have self-sustaining capabilities, this means that if not for their self-serving influence, humans would end up being the majority of sentient beings. Since they have the sense of self-preservation, then they can't go on about not understanding the self-preservation actions of humans.


Quote:
Humans simply don't have the technology to compete until then, so QB or whatever race he is a part of, has determined what is "right" because until then, they are superior and will do the decision making.
Which brings to the fore-front that it's entirely possible that humans have the power to overwhelm QB's race and make the decision instead.

It's a two-way street. If they're allowed to sacrifice humans then humans can make the same decision as well. If Madoka really goes magical in this story, I'd love for her to go that route.



Well, I suppose if Madoka's able to wish entropy away altogether and stop everything it'd be nice but somehow I don't think it'll be that easy.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:49   Link #117
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Originally Posted by DasDingus View Post
Isn't it possible that Kyuubey and his species don't understand the concept of what humans are going through when somebody they care about dies prematurely? Theoretically whatever holds the life force behind Kyuubey has never been killed. We don't know if there's just one behind him or if there are many, but if all he knows is that a body is just a terminal whose value is determined relative to the population as a whole then he has no reason not to continue. A human can "think" all the pain they want to try to make Kyuubey understand but his species has no concept of the pain the magical girls go through. It's like trying to explain the color red to somebody who was born blind.
It doesn't matter if they do not understand emotion. All they need to understand is each individual human is a life upon itself, which QB clearly knows, since he is actively bringing out souls from each girl he contract. Hive Queen respects life, she just thought humans were like her drones and do not possess life and intelligence by themselves. Once she did realize that humans are not a single hive mind like her, on the brink of her species' destruction, her chosen action was to forgive and entrust the survival of her species to Ender because they can reach an understanding through him and the memories passed down to the new queen allowed them to co-exist peacefully with mankind. In fact, QB showed a greater understanding of humans then the new hive queen ever did since he was able grasp and master human language, which Hive Queen never did because the way she communicated was through philotic connections. It wasn't ignorance or lack of understanding on QB's part but more of a lack of concern and respect for human lives. They simply don't care if they sacrifice us as long as they get what they wanted, the energy.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:50   Link #118
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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My take on QB's explanation: its quite possible entropy is becoming a problem in the universe because his race and the countless other races in the universe are making it a problem. I think that QB's race is sucking the universe dry and is trying to rectifying that to survive. So far, we have not seen QB straight out lie; has only left out bits he felt were "unimportant" at the time. Of course he'd tell about the entropy and not give the reason why its become as bad as it is.
"Unimportant"?
To whom?

QB knows that no Magical Girl was ever pleased about the truth concerning the soul gem. So the only reason he refuses to mention it to fresh victims, was because he knows it would affect his ability to get contracts.

Only important information are left out. That's why they are left out; because to screw people over, you need to tell only the nice bits of the story. You know, like how every girl QB ever contracted have either been killed or became Witches.

It's like finding out that every patient who visited a certain doctor have all died, or that every business who borrowed money from a certain bank have all gone bankrupt. It is important information.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:53   Link #119
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Utilitarianism doesn't justify Kyubey's actions. When you're trying to do the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of people, you need to definine what you mean by good. Historically, people who invoke utilitarianism have used happiness as the foundation for this.

Quote:
Utilitarianism is the idea that the moral worth of an action is determined solely by its usefulness in maximizing utility and minimizing negative utility (utility can be defined as pleasure minus pain, preference satisfaction, knowledge or other things) as summed among all sentient beings. It is thus a form of consequentialism, meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined by its outcome. The most influential contributors to this theory are considered to be Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill

Even when only considering problems involving humans, deciding how to add together and value different peoples' preferences and emotions is a fundamental weakness of utilitarianism. Evaluating the emotional effect of an action on someone with a different personality or different values is really difficult. This is even more ridiculous when when we're trying to somehow figure out the net happiness, will, preference, (or whatever metric we decide on) of all of the individuals in all the species of the universe, many of which have completely incompatible value systems, types of emotion, and ways in which they experience life. Since Kyubey's race is incapable of emotion, the argument could be made that they should not be included in the happiness calculus of utilitarianism at all. Utilitarianism might work when you're considering a handful of similar people, but not on a universal, multispecies scale like this.

Furthermore, trying to apply utilitarianism on a cosmic timescale is even more ridiculous. Utilitarianism depends completely on the outcome of the actions in question (the end justifies the means). There's absolutely no way to predict what that might be in this case. On any reasonable scale, this might be a nitpicky complaint, but I think this "butterfly effect" argument holds water in this case.

We can't rely strongly on gut instinct or assumptions based on common sense to resolve the two issues above either, since then we're really just using utilitarianism as a fancy, rational-sounding, but ultimately hollow argument to wrap around our gut instincts and commonsense assumptions and make it sound like we actually made a considered decision about the morality of something. (Which is sadly how utilitarianism is used far too often.)

My argument here is to preempt people who try to justify Kyubey's actions with utilitarianism here, since that theory is waaay out of its depth in this situation. (Not that Kyubey himself cares what humans think about the morality of his actions.)
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:53   Link #120
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SHAFT can make some really serious works. Urobuchi Gen butchers the characters. Kajiura Yuki makes dark-atmosphered music (mostly; some exceptions exist). But you forget that we have Aoki Ume. When the proverbial Pandora's box loose all its hells, Hope remains at the bottom.

Ume-sensei.
Urobuchi Gen

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Now I really, really hate you.
I get that a lot when pointing out the obvious

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廃怯少女 まどか☆マギカ
"wavering girl Madoka Magica
"廃怯" (hai-kyou, cowardice, hesitation)
Nice
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