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Old 2011-05-10, 14:24   Link #61
Soviet
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Musa is a netorare. Like it or not. It has more depth but netorare is still netorare.
I never said it wasn't though.

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Yep its a buzzword but it became so popular because it started include most of rage situations. Similary like tsundere the popularity of the word caused to loose edges of what is or what is not a tsundere and same way NTR.
Yes, that's a shame. So we shouldn't actively encourage the overuse of the term NTR, otherwise it ends up like "tsundere", devoid of all meaning.

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I really dont see how can you make NTR term more clearer because everyone will still be using NTR as NTR is more about the feeling it creates rather than about the actual situation (cheating etc). Thats one of the reasons the term grew so popular to begin with.
To define a genre you need something more concrete than "feelings", because things that make you rage might not faze me at all. NTR-stories have to follow a rule-set to be defined as such, if all you go by is how as story made you feel in your tummy when you slap a NTR-tag on it, then your basically telling me how I am supposed to feel when reading it and that just doesn't work.

Problem is, the normal manga/anime community doesn't give a fuck about this rule-set. So I'm reading shit like "lol, he got NTR'd" when the main-heroine blushes at a dude that isn't the protag. That's not NTR. That's a girl blushing at someone who is not the protag. Fucking hell.
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Old 2011-05-10, 14:39   Link #62
Darknemo2000
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Originally Posted by Soviet View Post
To define a genre you need something more concrete than "feelings", because things that make you rage might not faze me at all. NTR-stories have to follow a rule-set to be defined as such, if all you go by is how as story made you feel in your tummy when you slap a NTR-tag on it, then your basically telling me how I am supposed to feel when reading it and that just doesn't work.

Problem is, the normal manga/anime community doesn't give a fuck about this rule-set. So I'm reading shit like "lol, he got NTR'd" when the main-heroine blushes at a dude that isn't the protag. That's not NTR. That's a girl blushing at someone who is not the protag. Fucking hell.
The reason you heard about NTR is BECAUSE it started loosing its original edges and gaining the popularity.

More over NTR is complex because now it doesnt mark a situation (like say incest etc) but also the main purpose of it - as in jealousy/rage.

Japanese game makers themselves are creating this. I mean one game is marked netorare-tag where has wife cheating, but other game caries NTR mark where the girl barely knows the main guy and he is egocentrically sinking into his feelings of rage watching her dating. Both are legitimate names but concepts are vastly different, what makes them similar is the feelings of rage they provoke.

Some argue that some wife cheating stories are less NTR than say stories about brother learning his sister is a slut and feeling enraged depressed because of the intensity of feelings it create.

Thats why the stylization doesnt work because the main source of the term (japanese eroge market) is already stripping it of that.

There are too many situations to make it concrete. And the creator and the main reason of popularity (eroge community) is making it so that it would never be concrete enough.

Thats why the best connection between all so many different situations that hide behind NTR is sumed up in feeling of rage.
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Old 2011-05-10, 14:48   Link #63
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... or maybe the NTR or any other tag has no bearing on the actual writing quality of a series, and one shouldn't be so pedantic to the point where the discussion revolves around the label instead of the actual content of the story. Drop it.
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Old 2011-05-10, 14:56   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
... or maybe the NTR or any other tag has no bearing on the actual writing quality of a series, and one shouldn't be so pedantic to the point where the discussion revolves around the label instead of the actual content of the story. Drop it.
Actually it is a selling point for some manga and game makers who straightforwardly advertise themselves as NTR authors.

You have to realize that NTR tag became a product tag. Little Butterflies for example are bathing in their netorare eroge company fame (at first they did 50% to 50% ntr to 'normal' game but now they are nearly 100% NTR).

Some authors already start writing having in mind that they need NTR. So its not as separate from the story really since nowadays tag can influence the concept rather than just the opposite.
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Old 2011-05-10, 14:57   Link #65
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However, this topic is not discussing our decision to purchase Velvet Kiss on the basis of whether it's an NTR or not.
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Old 2011-05-10, 15:05   Link #66
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Yeah. It derailed. But your comment helped nothing to bring it back on track. Best way is to change the theme and discuss something from the said manga rather than further supporting derailment by complaining about it.

Returning back to Velvet Kiss, soba scans have removed full first volume links due to some pages missing, but now its corrected and up again on Soba's site.
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Old 2011-05-10, 15:08   Link #67
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No, that's your obsession with NTR. I previously speculated on Kano's stepmother's ulterior motives. It was ignored as you went on your NTR tirade.
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Old 2011-05-10, 15:18   Link #68
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I was responding to other poeple posts though. I think derailment started by bringing in Musa hentai manga which is very different from Velvet Kiss.
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Old 2011-05-10, 15:46   Link #69
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Observe. It was there, just overlooked.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Regarding Kano's stepmom, I think there are possible ulterior motives for Nitta and Kano that are less than benevolent.

A.) She may see Kano's lifestyle as a burden on the family. If she focuses on Nitta, she may get her act together, then possibly think about helping the family business.
B.) It may be a patriarchal family where only the man of the family inherits the business and fortune, so she could want Nitta himself to take over
C.) Because Kano's lifestyle is a moneysink, her stepmother may want her to marry into someone else's family liek Nitta's so that she is out of the picture and no longer wants the family fortune.
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Old 2011-05-10, 16:39   Link #70
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New Velvet Kiss chapters come once in a blue moon, why anyone would complain about off-topic discussion in a slow thread like this is beyond me. Picking out posts you want to respond to is not hard.

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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
The reason you heard about NTR is BECAUSE it started loosing its original edges and gaining the popularity.
No, I'm pretty sure I heard about NTR when I started playing some eroge from...Black Rainbow I think.

And I think you are misunderstanding me because I never said that NTR has to be limited to a wife cheating on her husband.
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but other game caries NTR mark where the girl barely knows the main guy and he is egocentrically sinking into his feelings of rage watching her dating.
And this is where things start to get dodgy. There is a reason why Atelier Sakura's 清純なカラダは、アイツの腕の中で男を知っていく was pretty much universally shat upon. This premise actually doesn't work for a lot of people. If you go even further in that direction (like, the protag's gf cheats on him but he doesn't give a fuck) you better think twice about calling something NTR since a sizable number of males would not think of this as very rage-worthy. And now look at my blushing example, that's how recklessly NTR gets thrown around.

Sure, NTR is not only about cheating but it sure as hell shouldn't go as far as including jealousy problems of deranged individuals. You have to draw the line somewhere. What's the point of having this term if you don't?
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Old 2011-05-10, 17:12   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I was responding to other poeple posts though. I think derailment started by bringing in Musa hentai manga which is very different from Velvet Kiss.
Which I guess is my fault. The thing about NTR is that the majority of them are completely unrealistic and unbelievable. You read them and think "what the hell, these characters can't possibly be this stupid, can they?". The first time I read a NTR story, it was definitely something that made me rage. The more of them I read though, the more I realized how poorly written they were. The story is just meant to piss you off, nothing more. Once the emotional impact wears off, there's little left that sticks with you.

I felt Musa avoided that trap by telling a solid story, with believable characters. I did rage initially, but I was also happy that the ending avoided the biggest NTR trope. Hence my recommendation and warning. Looking back on it, I feel that Musa was a stronger and better story than many Josei stories collected on the average manga sites. I'd mark Velvet Kiss higher than most too, so far.

People like Velvet Kiss because unlike so many erotic stories (we won't go back into the "is it hentai" argument), this one actually has a decent plot and character development. Events in the story don't feel like a gimmick to get to the sex scenes, everything feels important. If just for that, it's above and beyond most of the usual genre crap.
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Old 2011-05-10, 17:31   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Soviet View Post
New Velvet Kiss chapters come once in a blue moon, why anyone would complain about off-topic discussion in a slow thread like this is beyond me. Picking out posts you want to respond to is not hard.
This off-topic topic will never end. It's best to call it quits now, before there is trouble.

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People like Velvet Kiss because unlike so many erotic stories (we won't go back into the "is it hentai" argument), this one actually has a decent plot and character development. Events in the story don't feel like a gimmick to get to the sex scenes, everything feels important. If just for that, it's above and beyond most of the usual genre crap.
That is quite true. Nothing has been jabs at fan service for no reason, there has always been some use to it. Quality author right here.
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Old 2011-05-11, 01:30   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet View Post
New Velvet Kiss chapters come once in a blue moon, why anyone would complain about off-topic discussion in a slow thread like this is beyond me. Picking out posts you want to respond to is not hard.


No, I'm pretty sure I heard about NTR when I started playing some eroge from...Black Rainbow I think.

And I think you are misunderstanding me because I never said that NTR has to be limited to a wife cheating on her husband.

And this is where things start to get dodgy. There is a reason why Atelier Sakura's 清純なカラダは、アイツの腕の中で男を知っていく was pretty much universally shat upon. This premise actually doesn't work for a lot of people. If you go even further in that direction (like, the protag's gf cheats on him but he doesn't give a fuck) you better think twice about calling something NTR since a sizable number of males would not think of this as very rage-worthy. And now look at my blushing example, that's how recklessly NTR gets thrown around.

Sure, NTR is not only about cheating but it sure as hell shouldn't go as far as including jealousy problems of deranged individuals. You have to draw the line somewhere. What's the point of having this term if you don't?
But the creators of the eroge those who are responsible for the term dont see the reason to limit NTR. So if they dont why should we since we treat the term the waythey form it to begin with. They will continue call it NTR like it or not.

Who are we to draw the line whenn the prime inventors and users of the growing in popularity term see no reason to limit it. They will continue do it and as far as they continue making products we will continue to take in the tag the way they use with the meaning they want, because otherwise there would become two different NTR which would cause even more confusion than there is now.

Anyway, we should really drop the discussion. Now I like discussing with you such themes as NTR or tsundere tags but this is really not the place even if Velvet Kiss comes out once in a month.

Quote:
That is quite true. Nothing has been jabs at fan service for no reason, there has always been some use to it. Quality author right here.
I would argue that a few of Yuki sex scenes were not really needed and more thrown into it as a more of fanservice. But yeah - most of the erotic scenes here go hand in hand with the plot and characters.
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Old 2011-05-11, 09:36   Link #74
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To be honest I'm slightly annoyed at the sex scenes in Velvet Kiss. I like looking at Kano's breasts as much as the next guy but having an obligatory sex-scene in EVERY chapter just takes away story-content from chapters that are already pretty short. Less is more when it comes to sex-scenes that can't be used as fap material.

It's a rather minor annoyance though because.....tits.

And one last thing concerning this NTR-discussion
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
But the creators of the eroge those who are responsible for the term dont see the reason to limit NTR. [...] Who are we to draw the line whenn the prime inventors and users of the growing in popularity term see no reason to limit it.
Those prime inventors (eroge companies from 1998, maybe earlier) are long gone. Atelier Sakura is like, 1 year old. And these new companies and mangaka are not immune from misusing the term just like a random forum-dweller. Somebody in this thread pointed out how there is absolutely no NTR in Netorare Fighter Yarichingu for example. It's a company's ignorance at best and a misleading marketing-stunt at worst. They get called out for this shit but the ignorance still spreads. I see no value in supporting this development because the term is not really "expanding", it's just losing significance.
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Old 2011-05-11, 13:06   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Soviet View Post
To be honest I'm slightly annoyed at the sex scenes in Velvet Kiss. I like looking at Kano's breasts as much as the next guy but having an obligatory sex-scene in EVERY chapter just takes away story-content from chapters that are already pretty short. Less is more when it comes to sex-scenes that can't be used as fap material.
This is where I'll throw in my 2 pennies, it's the obligatory sex-scene that appears in every chapter.
Altho I generally don't have a problem with such a thing, it is however the way I define a series between normal manga with some sex scenes or just simply put porn but in this case porn with a story.
I know that isn't a real way or may be even a good way to define the 2 but it's my way.
And no amount of saying so will change my mind.

Solace summed it up pretty well for me.

Quote:
It's the quality of the story that makes a difference between "I came here to check out your pipes *queues bow chika wow wow music*" and "hey, this story has an interesting story and characters, in addition to some hot scenes"
VK is basically porn, couldn't care how one spins it but don't mean that is a bad thing, even in regards to story.

Well i got no real complaints so far, it's not bad, the art keeps things steaming for me
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Old 2011-05-11, 13:40   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Bonta Kun View Post
VK is basically porn, couldn't care how one spins it but don't mean that is a bad thing, even in regards to story.

Well i got no real complaints so far, it's not bad, the art keeps things steaming for me
I would argue against this. VK is not porn but erotic and the story is more important than sex. Take out sex scenes and VK (except for a few sebsual sex scenes) would still be VK. Take out the story between sex scenes and it would stop being VK.

And Soviet, though discussing NTR is interesting we should drop it really.
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Old 2011-05-11, 14:17   Link #77
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Ah yes the porn vs erotic story thing, I've been through that a long time ago with friends.
In the end we all settled with "yes it's just porn"(after hours of pointless yelling, shounting and whatnot, good old days)
Sure I know theres a difference and if need be I would say so but I've never had a need to point out differences cause in the end it doesn't make much of a difference to me or that I really just don't care.
If I like it be it simple porn or a porn with a story I will just like it.

I know people appreciate stuff for what it is and that we should do so but I'm too lazy to be stiff about it all.

I don't think it matters what a series is labelled as anyway, anyone reading this would(should) be old enough to make their own judgements.

VK is VK no matter what you take out, cause that can basically be said about every series.
(And no I don't care for any examples that may not apply to that statment)
I don't expect anyone to think the same way I do concerning this.
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Old 2011-05-11, 14:41   Link #78
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I think it's safe to say that something that has sex scenes in every single chapter is porn. There's no hard and fast rule or measure of this.
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Old 2011-05-11, 15:43   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
I think it's safe to say that something that has sex scenes in every single chapter is porn. There's no hard and fast rule or measure of this.
Quantity doesnt matter. What metters in classification is close up shots of genetalia.

After all pornography means seeing from the close-up in its actual meaning.

Erotic usually does showing breasts, buttocks but no real close-up shots of genetalia and penetration.

Thats why VK is not porn but erotic manga.
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Old 2011-05-11, 16:27   Link #80
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What you're describing as porn is just hardcore stuff. A key word in "softcore porn" -- is porn. Not like there's a universally accepted definition anyway. Far as I'm concerned, anything that shows sex prominently is some kind of porn.
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