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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 293 82.07%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 10.92%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 3.64%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.96%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 0.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.56%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.28%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 357. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-11, 03:06   Link #301
taofd
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Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
that wasn't a minor wish, just her using some of her magic power on her eyesight.
You see her hold her soul gem up to herself, and cures her eyesight, and in exchange you see the soul gem dim a bit (using up magic pts)
Not a minor wish? Curing eye sight is no easy feat. I would compare it easily to curing Kamijou's hand (which was Sayaka's wish)
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:07   Link #302
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Not a minor wish? Curing eye sight is no easy feat. I would compare it easily to curing Kamijou's hand (which was Sayaka's wish)
That's an interesting point...

Wonder if Homura could have healed Kamijou's hand. Could have helped a lot in this timeline if so.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:09   Link #303
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Looking at this episode, as a Ryukishi fan, I can't help but think that this would have been better if it had been less of a "reveal" and more what the premise of the series centered around.
Trying to understand what you're trying to say here. What _is_ the "premise of the series"? I'd have said that this is the remaining big question.

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I'm glad that Homura stopped being an obnoxious plot device this episode, but it also just didn't ring true to me emotionally except for the very first iteration, which was really the thrust of what we needed to see anyway.
She only was an "obnoxious plot device" in your head, and you obviously still can't let go if this ill-conceived prejudice of yours. You always insisted that she merely acted the way she did, because she was a stupid annoying idiot not getting things, even though you were warned multiple times that this would certainly be explained. Now it happened, and you don't like the taste of it. In fact, Homura did exactly what you wanted her to do in timeline 3.

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I felt like the execution was just perfunctory. There wasn't any nuance to how Homura acted towards her situation. It was exactly by the book in almost every respect.
I wonder what book that might be. Homura did what rational people would have tried to do. We had 1 episode to go through 5 timelines and explain the various attempts and outcomes, which was done admirably well.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:14   Link #304
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Not a minor wish? Curing eye sight is no easy feat. I would compare it easily to curing Kamijou's hand (which was Sayaka's wish)
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's an interesting point...

Wonder if Homura could have healed Kamijou's hand. Could have helped a lot in this timeline if so.
Remember how QB said that a MGs body was just a shell that could be repaired with magic for greater combat efficiency? I doubt she could do that for Kamijou, unless he was a MG.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:15   Link #305
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Not a minor wish? Curing eye sight is no easy feat. I would compare it easily to curing Kamijou's hand (which was Sayaka's wish)
I'm pretty sure she didn't 'cure' anything. Their bodies are not human anymore, they're more like super robots that they can control via their soul gems. Once she knew that, and with her new conviction, she could modify it however she wanted. At least, that's my interpretation.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:15   Link #306
taofd
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I was almost wondering if someone would STILL push this... hilarious ^_^

His _intentions_, as this episode proved, are 100% selfish. He had a quota to fulfil, he fulfilled it, and he doesn't give a rat's ass about the living beings he exploited, and whose genocide he facilitated. But hey, if even that's not evil to you, I doubt that anything ever could be.
No, I just think it's stupid to take things at face value especially when individuals within the production studio have expressed otherwise. We're assuming we know all the facts, and that is something which is certainly not true. Why do people insist he is evil when 1) There is clearly something deeper beyond the surface we don't understand about him, 2) part of the animation team has expressed that he's not evil, just thinks differently, and 3) the show isn't over yet.

Until then, I'm not going to definitively smack an "evil" tag on it. Also according to your definition of evil, so is pretty much every mahou shoujo in the series besides Madoka.

Kyouko exploits human beings for their grief seeds.

Mami secretly desired companions in her fight against the witches. You could argue that she "exploited" Madoka by inviting her to join the fight. The feelings certainly were selfish.

Sayaka's wish was a wish of healing which actually disguised her desire for Kamijou's love and affection. When she realized that was in danger, she starting to implode and resulted in becoming a witch.

Homura is perhaps the most selfish of them all who desired Madoka's friendship and is willing to do anything for it, even if it means the death of everyone who stands in her way.

Personally, I don't know if he's evil or not. Getting past the subjective quality of what determines "evil". Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but it seriously bugs me how closed minded people can be.

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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
I'm pretty sure she didn't 'cure' anything. Their bodies are not human anymore, they're more like super robots that they can control via their soul gems. Once she knew that, and with her new conviction, she could modify it however she wanted. At least, that's my interpretation.

And how are human bodies unlike robots? Instead of metals we have flesh and bone, instead of circuitry we have networks of neurons and nerves. We aren't so different as you would like to believe.


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Remember how QB said that a MGs body was just a shell that could be repaired with magic for greater combat efficiency? I doubt she could do that for Kamijou, unless he was a MG.
It must be a damn accurate reproduction if it even reproduces sub-optimal vision. I would fathom a guess, that it's a near perfect reproduction of the original body that is linked to the user's associated soul gem.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:17   Link #307
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I was almost wondering if someone would STILL push this... hilarious ^_^

His _intentions_, as this episode proved, are 100% selfish. He had a quota to fulfil, he fulfilled it, and he doesn't give a rat's ass about the living beings he exploited, and whose genocide he facilitated. But hey, if even that's not evil to you, I doubt that anything ever could be.
Well, QB is more or less a machine. He told himself that he doesn't understand human emotions. I do call menacing-looking contraptions evil, and associate tools of evil with evil itself, being a human myself, but blaming a machine isn't exactly going to accomplish anything.

If he was an evil being, he would care what happens to witch madoka. He consumes grief seeds, presumably for energy, remember? But he says he is done collecting Energy from Earth and doesn't care what happens with Witch Madoka, i.e, he doesn't care for her grief seed although that'd presumably give him a lot of energy as well because his quota is already fulfilled, and being a machine programmed to generate a certain amount of energy, he doesn't care for more energy. Now this is if we trust his words there. It is very much possible that he/it wanted Homura to stick back and somehow defeat Madoka so he could consume the grief seed of the ultimate witch. He asks her "are you not going to fight?" then goes "Akemi Homura... you are..." (how many time does he plan to say that anyway >.>) I don't know if he just figured what QB in this timeline figured out about Homura (that she has time powers) or if he figured something else out (can't imagine what it'd be though).

Regardless, I am not buying him completely ignoring what happens to witch Madoka. He surely, and certainly, wishes for that grief seed / power from however many fools sacrifice themselves to rid of Madoka. It may be that he thinks its impossible and thus isn't wasting time on pitiful humans.

Unless he is telling the truth about not caring for more energy than his quota which means he is just a machine (figuratively speaking. He said he is from a race of aliens). I think one of the big questions put forward is whether or not we can call such a being intelligent since it is clearly conscious of itself and has control over what it does but it lacks emotions. QB sounds a heck lot like transient AI that maintains its database through some unknown means and programmed into those plush toys. I don't know if we can call that evil. It's a philosophical question and much like everything of that nature, there is no answer. I would call whoever programmed those incubators evil instead. Provided they are sentient beings I guess... I don't know actually. I am not even sure humans are sentient beings so I am just gonna stop this rambling

If he is indeed gathering energy to fulfill a quota though, I don't know if we should label his actions as selfish. If that thing is mechanical to that degree, does it really have a self for us to call it selfish?

Spoiler for derp:

Last edited by Forsaken_Infinity; 2011-03-11 at 03:31.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:18   Link #308
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Just rewatch EP1......that's really.....really hurts.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:21   Link #309
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taofd - Kyubey is committing freakin' genocide. He is willing to be ultimately responsible for the death of billions of sentient lives. All for the sake of an "energy quota", whatever that's supposed to mean.

I think that at this point, people have every right to call him evil.

You certainly don't have to view him that way yourself, but other people have every right to.

In my opinion, and in my belief, this is evil. What Kyubey is doing is just about as evil as it gets. He is now right up there with the other two characters in my avatar.

Homura Lane: But millions of people will die.

Kyubey Luthor: Billions!
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:27   Link #310
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On a lighter note: You've gotta love how media's concept of an ugly girl is basically a supermodel with glasses and her hair tied. It seems that's not just an American thing.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:29   Link #311
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Gah, accidentally gave it a 9 when i meant to give it a 10. Anyhow, what a revelation. I'm afraid that Homura may fail in preventing Madoka from making the contract in this timeline as well, considering who the writer is. Though I'm I'm sure she's tried countless things thus far before reaching the current timeline, so I hope she can finally attain her goal. But the thing is, even if she achieves this goal, she has no way to counter the W. night (however you spell that) as far as we know... Maybe WN is actually something QB created?! And, who could've guessed at Homura's original personality

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's an interesting point...
Wonder if Homura could have healed Kamijou's hand. Could have helped a lot in this timeline if so.
Maybe Homura can only control time concerned with herself. That's why she herself can travel back in time, and similarly change her eyes back to the time when it still was good. Though since we don't know the specifics of her powers we can only guess.

Also, Homura only truly cares about Madoka from what I've seen. As long as she achieves that goal, other factors are not that important. Who knows how many past Homura have lived through? Maybe by experience she knows that Sayaka turning in to mahou shoujo and then a witch is the best way discourage Madoka from turning into a witch.

I wonder if there were variations in the timelinse Homura's been in... Man, this is really reminding of some unpleasant memories (read: Endless Eight episode)
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:30   Link #312
Xion Valkyrie
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And how are human bodies unlike robots? Instead of metals we have flesh and bone, instead of circuitry we have networks of neurons and nerves. We aren't so different as you would like to believe.

It must be a damn accurate reproduction if it even reproduces sub-optimal vision. I would fathom a guess, that it's a near perfect reproduction of the original body that is linked to the user's associated soul gem.
Their bodies are probably not perfect reproductions. For one thing, as soon as the soul-gem left Sayaka's body, it felt 'dead' to Kyoko who went over to examine her. This means that the body could very likely be a corpse, only being reanimated in the presence of their soul gem, or some kind of approximation that only has some superficial similarities in order to make the Peulla Magi think they're human, when they're really just some kind of animated golem.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:34   Link #313
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On a lighter note: You've gotta love how media's concept of an ugly girl is basically a supermodel with glasses and her hair tied. It seems that's not just an American thing.
Not sure what you're getting at but that is more along the line of stereotypical representation of reserved, insecure, nerdy, unsocial and weak girl (who needs protection) than ugly. Beauty/sexiness has little to nothing to do with Homura's transformation.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:34   Link #314
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taofd - Kyubey is committing freakin' genocide. He is willing to be ultimately responsible for the death of billions of sentient lives. All for the sake of an "energy quota", whatever that's supposed to mean.

I think that at this point, people have every right to call him evil.

You certainly don't have to view him that way yourself, but other people have every right to.

In my opinion, and in my belief, this is evil. What Kyubey is doing is just about as evil as it gets. He is now right up there with the other two characters in my avatar.

Homura Lane: But millions of people will die.

Kyubey Luthor: Billions!
"Billion" is just a number. What if you kill just Madoka to save the lives of billions, would it be worth it?

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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Their bodies are probably not perfect reproductions. For one thing, as soon as the soul-gem left Sayaka's body, it felt 'dead' to Kyoko who went over to examine her. This means that the body could very likely be a corpse, only being reanimated in the presence of their soul gem, or some kind of approximation that only has some superficial similarities in order to make the Peulla Magi think they're human, when they're really just some kind of animated golem.
As I said, near perfect. Also, yeah taking into account that a soul gem is required for operation...

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Long butt post
Thanks. As you pointed out I think the fundamental issue is that people are so quick to call a foreign entity "evil" because their values don't coincide to ours.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:35   Link #315
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Not a minor wish? Curing eye sight is no easy feat. I would compare it easily to curing Kamijou's hand (which was Sayaka's wish)
Healing Mahou Shoujo body is different with healing normal human. Don't forget that Mahou Shoujo body is just a shell which can be healed even if it is pierced into the heart.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:37   Link #316
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Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
Healing Mahou Shoujo body is different with healing normal human. Don't forget that Mahou Shoujo body is just a shell which can be healed even if it is pierced into the heart.
It is still a human body though. Just that the soul, which is presumably a form of energy, and is what causes the sense of pain etc., is concentrated into the soul gem so the girls don't feel pain when fighting and can thus continue despite severe injuries.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:38   Link #317
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Lol, so they illustrate Homura's diffrent personality by putting random glasses on her. Why do they always do that? Is she Clark Kent?

Nah, it's just another moe fetish; I won't fall for that pandering nonsense. Surely, no character I like could be subject to this.

Oh who am I kidding?

Anyhow, this episode fills in the plot very well. Now, we know why Homura can't just divine the future, since this seems to have a butterfly effect. And doing anything makes people suspicious. I really did lol at her attempt of just invading Madoka's room.

Defeating the witch still didn't work. SO WHAT DO THEY DO? This is like reloading a game when you are 5 seconds from crashing. And you'll probably crash into something next.

Madoka... well that's intresting. In a past reality, she really was Nanoha, even when faced with death she has no regrets, even when faced with the truth she remained lucid. I really can't say the same for everyone else. So basically Homura and Madoka have switched places.

Some of their scenes remind me of Kannuzaki no Miko, without the rape. That's a good thing, of course.

Anyhow, wish for a miracle folks, or maybe we need to save the miracle for afterward.

"As many times as you wish." -- 9/10-
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:40   Link #318
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
"Billion" is just a number.
That's your opinion. I don't share it. A lot of people don't.

If you ask people "Is it worse to kill one person, or is it worse to kill a million people", just about everybody will go with "a million".


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What if you kill just Madoka to save the lives of Billions, would it be worth it?
If it's due to an immediate situation, and it's a clear-cut inescapable choice (either send Madoka to her death or let billions die) then yes, it's worth it. In my opinion.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:41   Link #319
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Healing Mahou Shoujo body is different with healing normal human. Don't forget that Mahou Shoujo body is just a shell which can be healed even if it is pierced into the heart.
Why is it different? Is that more because they now have access to magic, or rather that because the "shell" is fundamentally different? Besides, for the shell to have the same functionality as the body, a lot of complex wiring is required. In any case, it's not a small feat.
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Old 2011-03-11, 03:42   Link #320
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"Billion" is just a number. What if you kill just Madoka to save the lives of billions, would it be worth it?
One life is a tragedy, many lives is a statistic.

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Thanks. As you pointed out I think the fundamental issue is that people are so quick to call a foreign entity "evil" because their values don't coincide to ours.
QB is evil because we're judging him by human standards. He's lied and manipulated to get what he wants and he doesn't care about the lives he is destroying to do it. So arguing semantics of evil aside, I'll grant you that the label is based on human subjectivity. That doesn't mean that we should just say "oh ok, he's not evil just misunderstood" and let him get away with killing an entire species either.
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