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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 293 82.07%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 10.92%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 3.64%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.96%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 0.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.56%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.28%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 357. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-04-05, 08:03   Link #1061
kaigan
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Originally Posted by Snork View Post
Come to think of it, you have a point. The direct question concerning Soul Gems is more, well... direct. But when asked, Kyuubey could actually answer "You'll die if it's tainted to the end" and again be technically right. Details omitted.
Ok, then what about a general question? "Kyuubey, is it true that a magical girl becomes a witch once her Soul Gem has darkened enough?" Try weaseling out of that one, you little white Mephisto-kun.
kyouko once asked almost something similar to this effect. kyuubey evaded by pointing homu instead. safe!
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Old 2011-04-05, 10:35   Link #1062
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Unless the translators failed (and they have certainly done so a number of times so I am totally not dismissing it), QB has one clear act of outright lying when he told Kyoko she could possibly save Sayako as shown when QB then talks with Homura after the fact and laughs about how silly Kyoko was for believing him because "of course that wasn't possible".

That said, whether this was just a bad translation or not, the bigger picture idea that QB is some robot constrained by a simple binary switches and and/or/not statements is incredibly simplistic and naive in my opinion. I feel like he clearly indicated in his conversation with Madoka when he tried to explain everything that the entire setup was done the way it was because his people thought it was the kind/nice way of doing things, implying that he does things this way out of kindness, not because he has to. All the truths and not forcing wishes etc can be seen as his own sticking to his own moral code of sorts, regardless of how unhuman it might be, not some set of universal laws that he must abide by. And if his acting "nice" just so happens to go hand in hand with needing the girls to voluntarily ask for a wish because the power to transform into a magical girl actually comes from them and QB is just acting as a catalyst of sorts, then from his alien race's perspective, all the better.

And, if it isn't clear, the use of the word "nice" is done from the alien perspective. Obviously I think he's a bat shit manipulator that deserves anything horrible one's imagination can think up.

I know people love to classify and order everything into discrete statements, but no human being acts that way and there's no reason an alien would as well.
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Old 2011-04-05, 10:55   Link #1063
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He said that he doesn't know any precedents and was technically right. Besides, in theory you can use a wish to bring somone back... Althouh there don't seem to be any prdcedents either. Seriously, had Homura tried it in TL1... Could it have been a completely different story now?
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Old 2011-04-05, 11:16   Link #1064
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First seconds of the episode, I was actually thinking that I'd finally get a break from all heavy stuff that has happened so far(joke/filler episode came into my mind). I guess that was just my wishful thinking seeing as this is darker than the previous episodes. At least most of the questions I had were answered but it definitely opens up the big question as to how this will end.

If Homura were to indeed wish for Madoka to be revived, would she be back as a human or still an MG? I bet Kyubei would've made it so that she'd be an MG and become the witch that he hopes she would be.
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Old 2011-04-05, 11:25   Link #1065
Solace
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Originally Posted by creb View Post
Unless the translators failed (and they have certainly done so a number of times so I am totally not dismissing it), QB has one clear act of outright lying when he told Kyoko she could possibly save Sayako as shown when QB then talks with Homura after the fact and laughs about how silly Kyoko was for believing him because "of course that wasn't possible".
He honestly didn't know. He's smart, and able to adjust his plans on the fly, but he isn't omnipotent. Somewhere buried in this thread I said Kyubey was operating a Xanatos Gambit. I wasn't kidding. If Sayaka could be revived, that's just another opportunity for her to fall and harvest her energy again. It doesn't matter if a Witch can be brought back or not, as long as Kyubey can eventually find an opportunity for Madoka to contract.....and then it won't matter anymore.

His statement "of course that wasn't possible" is simply confirmation bias. You have a theory that a coin will land face up. You toss it, and it does. Theory confirmed....technically. It's rather unscientific however, because it ignores what could happen when you invoke sample size and strings of attempts. Just because it happened once, does not mean it will always happen. It also ignores other variables, for example what if Kamijou was the one trying to reach Sayaka instead of Madoka?

If anything, it should be surprising that someone like Kyubey would dismiss the possibility so readily, however he also seems to be surprised at a number of other things in the show, like Madoka's potential and Homura's time travel abilities. If there's one point in the show that demonstrates to me that he didn't create the Magical Girl system, but merely subverted it, it's his conversation with Kyouko and his reply to Homura in episode 9. He may know some things about it, but he doesn't know everything. He only knows enough to manipulate it for his own gain, but he's confident that his manipulations will prevent the girls from figuring out and defeating his plans before it is too late.

I sometimes wonder if his "we have no emotions" statement is yet another lie. Hell, his whole "entropy" speech screams bullshit, imo.
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Old 2011-04-05, 12:07   Link #1066
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He honestly didn't know. He's smart, and able to adjust his plans on the fly, but he isn't omnipotent. Somewhere buried in this thread I said Kyubey was operating a Xanatos Gambit. I wasn't kidding. If Sayaka could be revived, that's just another opportunity for her to fall and harvest her energy again. It doesn't matter if a Witch can be brought back or not, as long as Kyubey can eventually find an opportunity for Madoka to contract.....and then it won't matter anymore.
Agreed. Very interesting points, and well-put.


Quote:

If anything, it should be surprising that someone like Kyubey would dismiss the possibility so readily, however he also seems to be surprised at a number of other things in the show, like Madoka's potential and Homura's time travel abilities. If there's one point in the show that demonstrates to me that he didn't create the Magical Girl system, but merely subverted it, it's his conversation with Kyouko and his reply to Homura in episode 9. He may know some things about it, but he doesn't know everything. He only knows enough to manipulate it for his own gain, but he's confident that his manipulations will prevent the girls from figuring out and defeating his plans before it is too late.
My own view is that Madoka, Homura, Kyouko, Sayaka, and Mami all had magical potential inside of them before meeting with Kyubey. Kyubey simply uses his advanced alien technology to unlock that potential, and does so while focusing that magic on a specific wish. In the process of unlocking that magical potential, Kyubey is able to harness a form of energy from the teenage girl that he contracts with.

If and when a magical girl turns into a witch, then more energy is released, which Kyubey can further harness with his advanced technology.

So I don't think that Kyubey understands magical energy much at all. He just understands it enough to know how to tap into it, and harness it.

If I'm right here, the way to defeat Kyubey is for Madoka to find a way to tap into her magical potential without having Kyubey unlock it for her.


Quote:
I sometimes wonder if his "we have no emotions" statement is yet another lie.
I'm of two minds here.

On the one hand, it's very difficult to portray a non-emotional being, and yet for that being to have some sort of personality that can be interesting to the audience. This is a problem that Star Trek sometimes ran into with Data, as in the process of making Data's personality interesting, it became harder and harder for the audience to swallow that he had no emotions. So it could be that Kyubey is a non-emotional being, but it's difficult to portray that well while keeping his character interesting.


On the other hand, Kyubey does seem to have some intrinsic sense of pleasure and displeasure to him, and it can be hard to see how that arises with out emotions. He clearly takes satisfaction in getting his energy quota, and he also showed slight dissatisfaction in Episode 4 when he temporarily had to give up on Madoka and Sayaka.


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Hell, his whole "entropy" speech screams bullshit, imo.
Maybe. But unless something different is revealed as Kyubey's true motivation, I'm going to stick with entropy for now.
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Old 2011-04-05, 12:35   Link #1067
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As far as the 'no emotions' thing, my personal perspective is that that shouldn't even be possible in any rational and sentient consciousness.

That is because, at their core, emotions are simply subconscious and subjective rationalizations.

If on any level you can make a value judgement that something is good or something is bad, then you can have emotions. As such, there's no doubt to me that on some level Kyuubey is indeed emotional.

However, what supports the idea of a significant separation in their species' degree of emotionality would simply be the fact that the scope of Kyuubey's consciousness, the extent of universal existences which Kyuubey is aware of with which to make his value judgements, is much wider than humans. I do believe that Kyuubey is ultimately operating out of self-interest and his species' own subjective emotionality. At the same time, it is completely believable that humans have vastly more potential for producing emotional energy, and that from his own perspective, all of what Kyuubey says is true.
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Old 2011-04-05, 20:32   Link #1068
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If I'm right here, the way to defeat Kyubey is for Madoka to find a way to tap into her magical potential without having Kyubey unlock it for her.
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this possibility at some point, and I'd like to see that happen as well. I do realize that it isn't a popular sentiment though, as most people are expecting a bad end of some kind.

If it doesn't happen this way, I suspect we'll be spending a lot of time debating the origins of the MG system.

Quote:
I'm of two minds here.
I think you and Sol both make good points. What sticks out to me is are the moments when he expresses otherwise human traits. For example, he sighs when Madoka rejects him in episode 9. He expresses surprise when he realizes what Homura's powers are. He seems afraid when Homura is chasing him in episode 1/10. He expresses condescending words when he reminds Homura of her futility. He seems happy when he gets his quota from Madoka, uncaring of humanities impending doom, but surprise when Homura refuses to fight Gretchen.

To me, a true emotionless being would be absolutely ruthless in achieving goals. There is no need for subterfuge when you're supposedly "advanced". If you think about his overall scheme, it is inefficient. He would achieve his goals much quicker if he simply forced the girls to contract and then forced them to break and transform into Witches.

Obviously we can argue "the story would be different than intended", "Gen has difficulty portraying emotionless creatures", and other plausible reasons, but just going by what I've seen, I have my doubts that he's truly emotionless. Perhaps he has less emotion than a human, and he clearly does not share their values, but he's more disturbing than cold and calculating. To me, he's more like the ultimate wolf in sheep's clothing, a marvelous actor who understands exactly when and where to be, and what to say, to get what he wants. His job is to capitalize on the emotional states of young girls; it would be very difficult if he didn't have some idea of what emotions were and how they worked.

I think it's less about his emotions, and more about his lack of understanding of human values and attachments, that makes him such a disturbing villain. He's like the kid who pulls wings off a fly, not because he wants to inflict pain, but just simple curiosity. The fly wouldn't agree, of course. It's sort of like human treatment of animals. We consider ourselves more advanced and superior, so we subject them to terrible things, and only a few of us empathize with the animals....the rest of us simply don't care. I can easily see Kyubey's race looking at us from the same perspective; we're just raw materials, cattle, something to be used and discarded...at best a pet or curiosity to be entertained with until boredom returns.

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Maybe. But unless something different is revealed as Kyubey's true motivation, I'm going to stick with entropy for now.
True. Not much choice there. Doesn't mean I can't find his reasoning unpalatable though.
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Old 2011-04-06, 08:38   Link #1069
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kyuubey evaded by pointing homu instead. safe!
whereby he technically affirmed that her words would be true. homerun!
Too bad said Homerun didn't take him up on his offer. The only girl known to handle the truth badly was gone by that time, and bringing up the witch issue now... I'm not sure whether Sayaka would have bought it (taking her attitude to Homura into account), but it's possible that at least Kyouko would take some action. Besides, unlike in TL3, neither Kyouko nor Sayaka had any trust for Kyuubey left, what with zipped souls, meat puppets and all.

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It also ignores other variables, for example what if Kamijou was the one trying to reach Sayaka instead of Madoka?
counterarguments:
- it's highly debatable so far whether Octavia had ANY remains of Sayaka's soul at all. Barrier allusions may well be nothing but bits and pieces of memories and personality.
- I believe it was said somewhere that people without magic potential cannot enter barriers and see witches. And even if they could? Kyouko had a tough time protecting Madoka who was more or less accustomed to this stuff. What about a clueless boy who has yet to get off the crutches after long hospitalization?

Quote:
My own view is that Madoka, Homura, Kyouko, Sayaka, and Mami all had magical potential inside of them before meeting with Kyubey. Kyubey simply uses his advanced alien technology to unlock that potential, and does so while focusing that magic on a specific wish. In the process of unlocking that magical potential, Kyubey is able to harness a form of energy from the teenage girl that he contracts with.

If and when a magical girl turns into a witch, then more energy is released, which Kyubey can further harness with his advanced technology.

So I don't think that Kyubey understands magical energy much at all. He just understands it enough to know how to tap into it, and harness it.

If I'm right here, the way to defeat Kyubey is for Madoka to find a way to tap into her magical potential without having Kyubey unlock it for her.
My point almost exaclty, but the inner potential part is curious to me. While the existence of such potential is confirmed (such girls can interact with magic willingly or not - and... lol, they also have double names instead of surnames XDDDD ). If Madoka manages to use that potential without any contracts, that will be... somewhat "deus ex machina"-ish, but interesting.
Of course, Madoka could also try to bypass the consequences of the system rather than the system itself (I mean the infamous "not become a witch" wish). Like I said, such an attempt could easily clarify if Kyuubey can be selective or not. If Madoka pulls it off, he might gain both a new emotion and a new expression... both decoding to "WTF?".

Quote:
If Homura were to indeed wish for Madoka to be revived, would she be back as a human or still an MG? I bet Kyubei would've made it so that she'd be an MG and become the witch that he hopes she would be.
It depends on the system itself. If magic registers bringing a Puella Magi to life and reverting her to human as two full-scale wishes, it might be denied (through outright error message or processing only the first wish in the list). Then again, Homura's wish sounded rather two-fold: redo her meeting with Madoka AND protect her. If not for that last part, she might have gained a single shot and the story would tragically end in TL2. But her claims were treated as one wish. Is it really as simple as fooling the system with complex sentences? I wonder... Or maybe it was the gist ("protect Madoka") that was taken out and processed, while the whole time loop thing is just a necessary condition for making the wish come true (you obviously can't protect someone who's already dead in this timeline).

Quote:
So it could be that Kyubey is a non-emotional being, but it's difficult to portray that well while keeping his character interesting.
I think they manage that well enough by creating the dissonance between his speech/expression and his words/deeds. Especially the speech - while it gives off an impression of some emotional colouring, it remains happy and nonchalant throughout the whole story. Saya no Uta indeed. Manga, on the other hand, has less impact because it lacks voiceovers and has to give Kyuubey a wider set of expressions to make up for it. Which undermines the visual dissonance as well. If you ask me, the on-screen Kyuubey is lots more WIN than the manga counterpart. But if they gave him a monotonous kind of speech expected from an emotionless being, they'd lose the audio dissonsance. And Kyuubey would probably lose customers - it's really a possibility that he just learned how to keep that happy-go-lucky tone that goes well with his cute appearance. both are supposed to be a teenage girl bait, after all.
There may be other explanations. Like the one with Kyuubey's race HAVING emotions... but either those emotions are too different from human and don't qualify for firewood... or our cute aliens chose to suppress them ever since coming up with the whole project. Like, "huh, so we can counter enthropy with magic and our emotions? but wait, that would mean sacrificing ourselves... erm... emotions... emotions.. is it edible? guess we don't have any "eemowshunz", so let's look elsewhere"/?? ?? ??\

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Hell, his whole "entropy" speech screams bullshit, imo.
Not that it's necessarily lies. Kyuubey may honestly believe in what he says... but even if you're more advanced than some other civilizations in the universe, does it mean YOUR picture of the world is 100% flawless?
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Old 2011-04-06, 21:44   Link #1070
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there is nothing deep in kyubei's entropy stuff. the whole thing is rather sickeningly cynical of absolutely everything that is good, even the very idea of anything worthwhile itself.

it's teh enemy. i have little expectation of a good ending from this particular company's production though, so whatever.
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Old 2011-04-07, 02:10   Link #1071
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it's teh enemy
That much is undebatable, regardless of any reasoning.
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Old 2011-04-07, 08:12   Link #1072
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He said that he doesn't know any precedents and was technically right. Besides, in theory you can use a wish to bring somone back... Althouh there don't seem to be any prdcedents either. Seriously, had Homura tried it in TL1... Could it have been a completely different story now?
But can that even be done? For all we know it's impossible.
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Old 2011-04-07, 09:41   Link #1073
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But can that even be done? For all we know it's impossible.
QB boasts he can perform Miracles with his wish granting, ressurrection is a miracle so I would say yes until proven otherwise
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Old 2011-04-07, 11:01   Link #1074
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QB boasts he can perform Miracles with his wish granting, ressurrection is a miracle so I would say yes until proven otherwise
Then why doesn't he just use his tech to solve the heat death problem?
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Old 2011-04-07, 11:13   Link #1075
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Then why doesn't he just use his tech to solve the heat death problem?
He said "warping the laws of the universe" is beyond "miracles", so he can't do it, only magic can.

Basically:

Emotions => [QB contract] => Magic (energy that transcends the laws of the universe).

So, QB's tech can turn emotions into magic, which he can use to combat entropy, but he's tech can't not combat entropy by its own.
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Old 2011-04-07, 11:23   Link #1076
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
He said "warping the laws of the universe" is beyond "miracles", so he can't do it, only magic can.

Basically:

Emotions => [QB contract] => Magic (energy that transcends the laws of the universe).

So, QB's tech can turn emotions into magic, which he can use to combat entropy, but he's tech can't not combat entropy by its own.
Exactly why I'm saying he should not be able to bring Witch Madoka back. The system seems based on a fundamental principle of the Madoka-verse. Since he cannot generate the energy a fallen Madoka will grant why should he be able to reverse the state of Kriemhild Gretchen?
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Old 2011-04-07, 12:20   Link #1077
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Exactly why I'm saying he should not be able to bring Witch Madoka back. The system seems based on a fundamental principle of the Madoka-verse. Since he cannot generate the energy a fallen Madoka will grant why should he be able to reverse the state of Kriemhild Gretchen?
Of course, that's beyond his power, but does he use his power/tech to grant the wishes? I think not.

I mean, QB's tech should not be able to make Homura go back in time, because entropy and time are two sides of the same coin, and since he's tech can not revert entropy, it's only logical it can't revert time either....

Yet, he made Homura goes back in time. So this can only be possible is the wish granting is powered by the wisher's own power (magic). If that's the case, then it wouldn't be entirely impossible for QB to revert Gretchen to a human state if someone actually wished for it. But QB would mislead you, he would tell you that's beyond his power, which is technically true, thereby preventing anyone from making that wish.

I think that's what he intended when he told Madoka reverting MG Sayaka to her normal state was beyond his power. I believe if Madoka wished for it, QB would be able to grant it, but then he would lose Sayaka and Madoka would not become a witch instantly. But if he convinced Madoka that she herself would be able to turn Sayaka into a human if she became a magical girl, then he'd force her to make a contract for nothing, and then use all her magic trying to revert Sayaka on her own, which would cause Madoka to go witch pretty soon....

I expect QB to be that clever!
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Old 2011-04-07, 13:36   Link #1078
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Of course, that's beyond his power, but does he use his power/tech to grant the wishes? I think not.

I mean, QB's tech should not be able to make Homura go back in time, because entropy and time are two sides of the same coin, and since he's tech can not revert entropy, it's only logical it can't revert time either....

Yet, he made Homura goes back in time. So this can only be possible is the wish granting is powered by the wisher's own power (magic). If that's the case, then it wouldn't be entirely impossible for QB to revert Gretchen to a human state if someone actually wished for it. But QB would mislead you, he would tell you that's beyond his power, which is technically true, thereby preventing anyone from making that wish.

I think that's what he intended when he told Madoka reverting MG Sayaka to her normal state was beyond his power. I believe if Madoka wished for it, QB would be able to grant it, but then he would lose Sayaka and Madoka would not become a witch instantly. But if he convinced Madoka that she herself would be able to turn Sayaka into a human if she became a magical girl, then he'd force her to make a contract for nothing, and then use all her magic trying to revert Sayaka on her own, which would cause Madoka to go witch pretty soon....

I expect QB to be that clever!
No...what I mean is, he takes some of their magic to create the wish effect. Then when they fall, the rest is released to be harvested and dumped into the universe. Isn't the magic then lost permanently? Unless he can somehow recover it from its dispersed state. But then why would he if he does not want to? They can't actually force him to do anything....
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Old 2011-04-07, 13:46   Link #1079
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No...what I mean is, he takes some of their magic to create the wish effect. Then when they fall, the rest is released to be harvested and dumped into the universe. Isn't the magic then lost permanently?
I suppose, but every time a new girl makes a contract, QB could grant anything the girl wishs for. The key is that if the wish if not convenient for QB, he would tell you that's beyond his power (even though he isn't using his power to grant it), to mislead you to wish for some thing else.

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They can't actually force him to do anything....
Not force him, but I believe once you made your wish, he would have to grant it even if it's inconvenient for him.
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Old 2011-04-07, 19:34   Link #1080
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QB boasts he can perform Miracles with his wish granting, ressurrection is a miracle so I would say yes until proven otherwise
I just noticed something. Not that this explicitly proves anything with regards to the rest of the discussion, but this should put to rest once and for all whether 'resurrecting someone' is within the bounds of what a wish can make possible.

In episode 10, after Madoka dies, Kyuubey's entrance is directly after Homura makes a specific statement: "Rather than saving me, I wish that you [i.e. Madoka] lived on." And of course, Kyuubey's entrance is directly followed by his usual sales pitch where he says "In exchange for your soul I can give you that power." Of course, what Homura ended up wishing for was something other than Madoka's direct resurrection, but Homura's suggestion of that was the direct cause of Kyuubey's appearance.

So yeah, it's final. Kyuubey/Puella Magi wishes can resurrect people, no question about it.
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