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Old 2011-03-29, 18:13   Link #2021
SaintessHeart
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That is the problem of self-regulation. The people who control the rules are the senior executives, not the engineers.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-03-29, 18:53   Link #2022
Zetsubo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That is the problem of self-regulation. The people who control the rules are the senior executives, not the engineers.
And that my friend is a HUGE PART of the problem... in every industrialized nation and every major company on this planet.
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Old 2011-03-29, 19:45   Link #2023
Vexx
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My dad used to say the instant accountants moved into decision-making points the organization is doomed. I've expanded that to "management school graduates" and "finance people".

They're the ones who think fire needs to be marketed on the B Ark (HHGTTG).
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Old 2011-03-29, 19:48   Link #2024
Qikz
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Someone on another forum was planning to go to Tokyo in a few weeks, but his brothers girlfriend sent him this.

Quote:
I don't think you should go to tokyo. there is so much radiation but government hasn't confirmed. They have been hiding lots of things so.
Plutonium was found the other day around the reactors and this can kill whole Japan with amount of 5 sugar cubes.
Also water in Tokyo is radiated so people haven't been drinking, government said it's safe to drink but they changed amount of radiation for safety in the water 30 times higher before they confirmed so my friends aren't drinking. You aren't arrowed to get wet in the rain in Tokyo area it's very highly polluted with radiation.

So going to Tokyo isn't good at all I don't want you and [my brother] to go, also there are lots of big earthquakes that haven't stopped there is no promise a huge one won't hit again.

[My brother]'s friends had tickets for a festival in Tokyo but they gave up going so...
There have been big power cut in Tokyo area so there isn't any normal train service so you won't be able to go around too. People I know have been back in Kyoto cos they can't go to work so they evacuated from Tokyo.

Read some news online in English, radiation problem is something you need to be careful. I haven't bought any food products from those areas.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/
This is a good website so check.

We all know much worse facts from twitter but Japanese government don't want panic otherwise some specialists pointed that people in Tokyo should all evacuate. It's so scary to see how high radiation Tokyo has in the air.

You can of course come but it's very serious and it is effecting everybody's lives in Japan. It's not a happy country right now and I have no idea what's happening next.
I'm really confused by it, since I don't know how much truth is in it and although TEPCO haven't exactly been truthful since the start, I don't get why they would lie about radiation levels in the air. Especially since anyone can get hold of a giger counter or whichever one it is. Anyone else in Japan or following the news more than me have anything they can say about this?
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Old 2011-03-29, 19:55   Link #2025
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qikz View Post
Someone on another forum was planning to go to Tokyo in a few weeks, but his brothers girlfriend sent him this.



I'm really confused by it, since I don't know how much truth is in it and although TEPCO haven't exactly been truthful since the start, I don't get why they would lie about radiation levels in the air. Especially since anyone can get hold of a giger counter or whichever one it is. Anyone else in Japan or following the news more than me have anything they can say about this?
"girlfriend" is using really poor news media sources for her information (after accidentally watching a broadcast of Inside Edition (a celebrity trash faux-news show) I got a blast of just how much utter bullshit is being spewed). And I'm pretty sure she isn't actually READING the NHK site as they're not in any "OMG!!!" mode.

Of course, it takes actual effort to jump out of the "OMFG WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!@@AFDSADARE (stay tuned thru the next commercial break to see how and who said it) and find useful information.

There are a few areas in Japan currently on the not-a-good-idea list ... the actual area near the plant and, more importantly, all the devastated areas who can't deal with tourists right now. But most of the country is doing okay and needs people to keep doing what they were planning on doing. Its going to be darker (many whooo! lights turned off to conserve) and there may be occasional difficulties getting some things. You should drink bottled water when traveling *anyway* because your gut doesn't like to meet new water it isn't familiar with.

I'll keep posting this link and this pic to show just how OUT OF PROPORTION uneducated fools are taking this hyperbolic failure of news reporting:

http://xkcd.com/radiation/


[/URL]

This is about like saying "Don't go to Texas because they had a Hurricane in Houston" .... my tolerance for the media and the people behaving like this is getting remarkably short.
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Old 2011-03-29, 19:58   Link #2026
Qikz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
"girlfriend" is using really poor news media sources for her information. Of course, it takes actual effort to jump out of the "OMFG WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!@@AFDSADARE (stay tuned thru the next commercial break to see how and who said it) and find useful information.

There are a few areas in Japan currently on the not-a-good-idea list ... the actual area near the plant and, more importantly, all the devastated areas who can't deal with tourists right now. But most of the country is doing okay and needs people to keep doing what they were doing.

I'll keep posting this link and this pic to show just how OUT OF PROPORTION uneducated fools are taking this hyperbolic failure of news reporting:

http://xkcd.com/radiation/


[/URL]

This is about like saying "Don't go to Texas because they had a Hurricane in Houston" ....
Just did some research and it seems she's been hit up by twitter sensationalization. There's been Plutonium found in the soil around one of the reactors but that's where the reactor was so badly damaged. It's not enough to kill anyone apparently. I just wanted to double check she wasn't right.

Last edited by Qikz; 2011-03-29 at 20:16.
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Old 2011-03-29, 20:25   Link #2027
Malkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This underlies *my* only real problem with nuclear power -- the idiots who make the "management" decisions are the same idiots who run harmless widget companies where terrible decisions only make broken widgets.
It's not like your given any other option in modern political/economic systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
But I'd be telling the new-hires ... "congratulations, you may be on your way to becoming government employees and bureaucrats."
Well, usually the problem is not the system, but the people... and with a deficit almost double the GDP, a nationalization makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
I would trust the facts of IAEA. JAIF releases a status update on the reactors every once in a while, I would trust these too. The best place for interpretation of these facts is BBC imho.
All things considered, I have to agree that BBC had the better coverage from all the foreign media I followed. Though they tried on occasion to ruin it especially in their domestic televised coverage, but their on-line live feed was extremely good.
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Old 2011-03-29, 20:33   Link #2028
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Well, usually the problem is not the system, but the people... and with a deficit almost double the GDP, a nationalization makes no sense.
Agreed... I was joking a bit in that post --> more seriously, I *could* see TEPCO being place in temporary stewardship til "house was cleaned".

The problem with that scenario is that the Japanese government suffers from colossal calcification of its own cogs and wheels.
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Old 2011-03-29, 20:34   Link #2029
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
My dad used to say the instant accountants moved into decision-making points the organization is doomed. I've expanded that to "management school graduates" and "finance people".

They're the ones who think fire needs to be marketed on the B Ark (HHGTTG).
Finance and Econs grads aren't that bad (I am one ). Finance MANAGEMENT grads are a different issue, the only thing they cared about it how to increase their next payroll.

We aren't suppose to give a shit about how the management does - macroecons teach us that human capital is worth more than financial capital (thanks to inflation, money gets less in the future, but the more experience a worker gets, the more valuable he/she becomes) - most cash flow issues come from mismanagement of human resource and Opsys (operations and systems) - and a major cost of opsys is often safety.

Maybe we should start shooting the office politicians and those people who took out operations and systems management from management syllabuses.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-03-29, 20:37   Link #2030
Tri-ring
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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I bet alot of people would love to take a stab at this piece.

CNN mobilizes its news gathering troops for Japan, Middle East

Quote:
Excerpt;
Jautz said he wants it to be a network where viewers learn something when they tune in.
Reading the article, I thought they placed it to antagonize the readers.

Some may want to check this out as well.

British blogger creates 'Quakebook' to help disaster victims

It is a interesting site.
Here is the link to their site.
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Old 2011-03-29, 20:52   Link #2031
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I bet alot of people would love to take a stab at this piece.

CNN mobilizes its news gathering troops for Japan, Middle East
I propose arming the JGSDF and US rescue squads with anti-optic dazzlers and stun grenades.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-03-29, 21:28   Link #2032
Zetsubo
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here is the thing.

people instinctively will tune into stations that have up to the minute by minute OMG THE SKY IS FALLING news casts.

They do this because the OMG !! THE SKY IS FALLING news feels safer to listen to than the sites that are calm, fact focused and non sensational.

I think people like to be scared.

OR they prefer to err on the side of caution.

That is to say... "I am scared I take things too calm and end up nuked, especially since I know squat about this high end physics stuff"

Once you scare en mass people it is hard to calm them down... and takes very long... and then you have to get SUPER STARS, SPORTS PEOPLE and POPULAR MEDIA ICONS and their KIDS to walk around and say its safe.

They wont trust Govt officials or scientists that work in the system since apparently ... they re immune :P

Either way you take it... the damage is done and TEPCO has not done anything but try to save face... in typical Japanese red tape style.
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Old 2011-03-29, 21:29   Link #2033
Malkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Finance and Econs grads aren't that bad (I am one ). Finance MANAGEMENT grads are a different issue, the only thing they cared about it how to increase their next payroll.

We aren't suppose to give a shit about how the management does - macroecons teach us that human capital is worth more than financial capital (thanks to inflation, money gets less in the future, but the more experience a worker gets, the more valuable he/she becomes) - most cash flow issues come from mismanagement of human resource and Opsys (operations and systems) - and a major cost of opsys is often safety.

Maybe we should start shooting the office politicians and those people who took out operations and systems management from management syllabuses.
Let me put this in another way, judging from two large corporation I have worked for as an external employ, both their structure was 90% personnel managing the 10% that was producing... sorry, if I am the only one here finding this business model worst that a nationalization at 2x deficit on GDP

On a related note, why in hell are politicians and managers responsible for decision-making in these situations, they have neither the knowledge nor the experience to handle such issues I can understand good intentions and guilt complex, but they will do more damage than good


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
They wont trust Govt officials or scientists that work in the system since apparently ... they re immune :P
Then trust who, the ones that have a legal interest into concealing or over-blowing the facts (refering to private media depending on their funding/ownership). It's a zero sum game here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
Either way you take it... the damage is done and TEPCO has not done anything but try to save face... in typical Japanese red tape style.
Typical red tape for every nationality/system, let me remember... oh! nuclear tests on humans in the US and USSR during the cold war, wait nationalist governments in Europe; or more recent... BP? Bayer? China? Middle East? Eastern Europe? and that's only for the so called develop-ed/ing world, otherwise your username would not suffice to describe the situation
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Old 2011-03-29, 22:03   Link #2034
NameGoesHere
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Plutonium
:/

Anyway, I think a quick Google is enough on the subject of Plutonium. To summarize, differing opinions over if it's a toxicity or radiation problem, but really...the attention is not warranted. There are other actinides for one, and quantity wise the Iodine is more likely to get somebody. However, please remember that ingestion and exposure are very different. And, it is true that nature can mess everything at a moment's notice.

SaintessHeart, I hope they teach you too that the most important question is "what do I do when this doesn't work?" Perpetual "criticism" and "negativity" is useful coming out of your geeks...

Previously...
Shares fall
US robots
GE's pages
Monitor
Decay heat

The MITNSE site, but decay heat is important. They are trying to balance contamination and cooling at the moment. In the status quo, this is not a problem of weeks, but rather months.

Also, even without more sea water, it will take time for the instruments to clear up. The pipes themselves are very robust, it's the valves and misc. items that are critical (and ruined)...sobering thoughts, perhaps...
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Old 2011-03-29, 22:06   Link #2035
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Let me put this in another way, judging from two large corporation I have worked for as an external employ, both their structure was 90% personnel managing the 10% that was producing... sorry, if I am the only one here finding this business model worst that a nationalization at 2x deficit on GDP

On a related note, why in hell are politicians and managers responsible for decision-making in these situations, they have neither the knowledge nor the experience to handle such issues I can understand good intentions and guilt complex, but they will do more damage than good
It is decentralisation gone wrong. They wanted managers to be more independent so the firms can react better to market changes, but the thing is that in this world, only 4/10 can make decisions effectively with no time loss under pressure.

And that it is usually the politically inclined who are better with people, hence they are able to move their way up much faster than the technically rational (engineers).

Worked as PT for around 10 times in office environments, 6 of which are for big MNCs. Probably that is what made me want to be a freelancer.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-03-29, 22:20   Link #2036
Zetsubo
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post

Typical red tape for every nationality/system, let me remember... oh! nuclear tests on humans in the US and USSR during the cold war, wait nationalist governments in Europe; or more recent... BP? Bayer? China? Middle East? Eastern Europe? and that's only for the so called develop-ed/ing world, otherwise your username would not suffice to describe the situation
true.... very depressing indeed
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Old 2011-03-29, 22:22   Link #2037
ArrowSmith
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My heart goes out to the Japanese people. I have given a donation to the Red Cross.
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Old 2011-03-29, 23:49   Link #2038
Alchemist007
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Might've been mentioned already, but Valve started a donation pool for the Red Cross using their TF2 store. Unfortunately this isn't without government tax but they've already raised over $300,000! Next time someone tells you gamers don't care...! This has had criticism such as 'they should just donate themselves', but I doubt people in need really care if some guy gets a virtual item for their contribution.

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=5199&p=
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Old 2011-03-30, 02:53   Link #2039
Green²
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"...Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news conference that the government and nuclear experts are discussing ''every possibility'' to bring the plant under control and that some measures that have been reported by the media are included in their options.

Media reports said that the government and the experts have been studying the feasibility of new steps such as covering reactors of the plant with special cloth to reduce the amount of radioactive particles flying away from the facility and using a big tanker to collect the contaminated water."
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81894.html
Next, fill the trenches with lime green jello mix to help prevent the radioactive water from absorbing into the soil and ground water. And in eight days later, TEPCO can supply the whip cream.
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Old 2011-03-30, 03:12   Link #2040
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsubo View Post
...
They wont trust Govt officials or scientists that work in the system since apparently ... they re immune :P
...
You must be careful, when you want to trust people who are biased towards a technology for various reasons. Not being immune and capitalist short term gain thinking are not mutually exclusive.

Do you trust polticians to keep their promises they made in an election campaign? Not to say, that there was the mandra, that nuclear power plants are safe. That they are never disaster fail safe is shown in Fukushima. Yet they claimed what they either did not know better, or deliberately claimed it despite knowing better.

In nuclear science too much emphazises is on the technical aspect, very little is known about health consequences in a case of disaster. Thats only natural, because statistically most scientist will say, such an incident occurs every 1,000 - 10,000 years or so. They obviously do not adequately recognize the human factor in their equations (when I read the official results of investigation of hazardous incidents in german nuclear power stations, its like 25% of the incidents were caused by people who override safety mechanisms in order to keep the power plant running or do not fix safety mechanisms in order to keep them running).

But whats even worse, there is a biased and hence a marginalizing POV regarding the dangers of the technology. There are potential risks coming from certain radioactive isotopes that go beyond the risk metrics that influence the final value of Sv, but everything is simply broken down into Sv (as if it was possible to deduce actual long term risk estimates from such data alone... the problem is, that this field of science is imo still understudied¹ - for obvious reasons - They do not even care to use man Sv for their risk estimates (which should be used when talking about long time exposure <- an even more debated and understudied field of science)).

¹In a (nuclear) war, the long term cancer risk for troops who are exposed to radiation is pretty much a non issue for the war, so there will be no funding from that side to support research that deals with long term risk analysis of radiation. There is certainly not much interest from government institutions and no interest in such research in the nuclear industry... nuclear power generation is just a too precious asset...).
So, at the moment, nobody can give factual risk estimates, because there is not enough research going on in this field of science. This makes a best case estimate (usually made by the same people who benefit in one way or another from nuclear energy) equal to deciding that a certain amount of people are expendable for the merits of nuclear generated electricity.
For example take the table that was posted (again) by Vexx, there the maximum yearly dosis for US radiation workers is shown. Now most people will think, when they look at this chart, that such a dosis must be safe then. Actually if the US radiation worker was exposed to this radiation over 35 years of his/her life, the cancer risk would raise about 7%. 7%, thats 70 out of 1,000 (or 70,000 out of 1,000,000) people get cancer because of radiation. This puts the idea, that this bears almost no risk into perspective I think. The fact that there is not a 7% raised ratio of cancer for US radiation workers is because they are not exposed each year to the maximum dose. So, actually this chart is telling people what they want to read from it... but without some background knowledge it won't help the average joe to estimate a long term risk.
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