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Old 2011-04-02, 18:22   Link #2081
Random32
Also a Lolicon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highman View Post
If anyone can update already to the 50 people who are sacrificing themselves into Fukushima Power Plant. Really am hoping they're will get the best treatment every day.
-There are more than 50 people now.
-They were really badly equipped by TEPCO to handle the situation.
-They aren't really sacrificing themselves 100%. Most of them will probably die natural deaths. They are still putting them up to very dangerous risks though.

Since Vexx brought it up. Will Japan keep relying on seawalls? I assume they are rather effective except in really really bad situations like this one. To everyone who lives in Japan, have seawalls ever provided a sense of security and has that sense of security been affected by the recent events?
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Old 2011-04-02, 18:23   Link #2082
Ithekro
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Seawalls are effective when you don't have 10 meter waves.
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Old 2011-04-02, 18:58   Link #2083
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Seawalls are effective when you don't have 10 meter waves.
I'm fairly sure of that. Maybe I didn't phrase myself right, I wish to know about what humans feel about their effectiveness, rather than what they think.

its like nuclear power. its generally safe, its one of the best choices for alternative energy sources today, but a lot of people, at least in America, treat nuclear power like medieval people treat witches, because of accidents like Fukushima, Three Mile Island, or Chernobyl.

I am wondering whether people's thoughts seawalls as a layer of defense between them and a tsunami will be affected in a similar way.
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Old 2011-04-02, 19:09   Link #2084
Ithekro
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I'm hoping for a more high tech solution to the seawall problem....but high tech means more things that can go wrong. A seawall just sits there. There aren't moving parts, it just has to stand up to time and the Ocean.

The high tech way would be energy shield that can be projected an any hieght to stop any sized wave. But if the power goes out, or the projectors fail...the whole wave is getting in. So sometimes low tech works better because it has less chance of failure.
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Old 2011-04-02, 19:10   Link #2085
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
Will Japan keep relying on seawalls? I assume they are rather effective except in really really bad situations like this one. To everyone who lives in Japan, have seawalls ever provided a sense of security and has that sense of security been affected by the recent events?
They probably will keep them and improve the technology involved in them. They just have to pay for themselves once. Also, not all of them failed. There was the video, with I believe thai writing on it, where the seawall almost successfully repelled a tsunami from the quake (believe it was ~7m). There was minor flooding but no deadly wave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I'm hoping for a more high tech solution to the seawall problem....but high tech means more things that can go wrong. A seawall just sits there. There aren't moving parts, it just has to stand up to time and the Ocean.

The high tech way would be energy shield that can be projected an any hieght to stop any sized wave. But if the power goes out, or the projectors fail...the whole wave is getting in. So sometimes low tech works better because it has less chance of failure.
Nothing says you can't have both or use high technology to create a low technology wall. Like if someone could design a wall that could reflect the energy of the initial waves back and use that energy to counter the other waves as they came.
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Old 2011-04-02, 19:26   Link #2086
Vexx
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What was "unexpected" is that the elevation of the land UNDER the seawall and the towns behind them dropped almost 3 meters during the quake. Seawallls that WOULD have worked were now 3 meters lower when the waves arrived.
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Old 2011-04-02, 20:09   Link #2087
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highman View Post
If anyone can update already to the 50 people who are sacrificing themselves into Fukushima Power Plant. Really am hoping they're will get the best treatment every day.
Here are some articles concerning the people working within the plant.

Nuclear plant workers have option to quit but not many doing so


Workers at stricken nuclear plant endure tough conditions
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Old 2011-04-03, 00:35   Link #2088
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Here is something :

Quote:
The radiation level within the building is 2-3 microsievert per hour. They sleep in conference rooms and hallways in the building. To shield them from radiation from the floor, they cover themselves with lead-containing sheets before they put on blankets.
The max yearly dose for US radiation workers is 50 millisv, which is 50000 microsv. Doing the averaging of math, the total number of hours they can work is 16666 hours, which is equivalent to 1515 days of 11h per day (6am - 5pm), approximately 4 years. This is assuming that the radiation passes through their protective gear and accumulates inside the body which the lymphatic system is unable to pass out.

3 litres of water isn't enough. Give them more. And also, the last I checked, shipboard E-4 engineers earn US$7000 per month and they sail around the world for 6-10 months before their next stint of shore leave, so it makes Y400,000 look quite a small amount.

It would be an outrage if the managers in Tokyo for the crisis are paid more.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2011-04-03 at 01:11.
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Old 2011-04-03, 04:43   Link #2089
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Here is something :

The max yearly dose for US radiation workers is 50 millisv, which is 50000 microsv. Doing the averaging of math, the total number of hours they can work is 16666 hours, which is equivalent to 1515 days of 11h per day (6am - 5pm), approximately 4 years.
See, and this is how not to read this data. The safest place in the plant is exposed to this radiation. This is where workers sleep and live (not work). Many workers are exposed to radiation of levels of magnitudes higher in their actual working environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
This is assuming that the radiation passes through their protective gear and accumulates inside the body which the lymphatic system is unable to pass out.
Radiation doesn't accumulate directly. Radioactive isotopes can accumulate and cause radioactive hot spots (indirect).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
3 litres of water isn't enough. Give them more. And also, the last I checked, shipboard E-4 engineers earn US$7000 per month and they sail around the world for 6-10 months before their next stint of shore leave, so it makes Y400,000 look quite a small amount.

It would be an outrage if the managers in Tokyo for the crisis are paid more.
Yet I'ld bet on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
...
The high tech way would be energy shield that can be projected an any hieght to stop any sized wave. But if the power goes out, or the projectors fail...the whole wave is getting in. So sometimes low tech works better because it has less chance of failure.
I have to keep that in mind just to relativize your future statements with regards to technical and scientific fundamentals.
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Old 2011-04-03, 05:50   Link #2090
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
See, and this is how not to read this data. The safest place in the plant is exposed to this radiation. This is where workers sleep and live (not work). Many workers are exposed to radiation of levels of magnitudes higher in their actual working environment.

Radiation doesn't accumulate directly. Radioactive isotopes can accumulate and cause radioactive hot spots (indirect).
I am not just solely talking about "ionising radiation" in the form of gamma rays which is supposed to pass through even thin lead (what I was taught in school is 2mm, but our Physics teacher taught us that "Murphy's Law" applies due to the erratic and highly mysterious nature of atomic and quantum physics), I also included radioactive dust and particles that are small enough to circumvent even nanocarbon-lined filters.

Also, similar in a way to chemo/radio-therapy where radiation is used to kill cancer cells, the radiation can either mutate or kill human cells, and some of the mutated cells might be rejected by the body and just die by itself, and probably flushed out of the body's systems.

Supposedly too, the lowest 1-year dose is around 100 milliSv, which equates to around 100,000 microSv. Even if the radiation they work in is about 1000 times greater than the regular 2-3 microSv, the workers can still last around 2-3 months before they have to be quarantined long-term.

Unless the decon facilities and MOGG-4 provided are the low-quality ones, I think that out of so many workers, only 9-10% will get cancer in the long term at most.

Quote:
Yet I'ld bet on it.
If that is so, that just pretty much proved Gandhi's nonviolence attitude wrong - apparently some people REALLY need and deserve to die.
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Old 2011-04-03, 06:36   Link #2091
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am not just solely talking about "ionising radiation" in the form of gamma rays which is supposed to pass through even thin lead (what I was taught in school is 2mm, but our Physics teacher taught us that "Murphy's Law" applies due to the erratic and highly mysterious nature of atomic and quantum physics), I also included radioactive dust and particles that are small enough to circumvent even nanocarbon-lined filters.
Radiation can either be particle ray based (alpha, neutron/proton radiation) or an energy ray based (beta, gamma/x-ray).

Alpha radiation can be blocked by a sheet of paper or your skin (it can however cause indirect damage, similar to Bremsstrahlung coming from beta radiation).
Neutron/proton radiation is more dangerous, because it can create radioactive isotopes that were stable before they were hit (thermal and fast neutron react differently with isotopes, so tehnically one would have differentiate between the two even further). None of these types of radiation directly accumulate inside the body. At best they create radioactive isotopes that accumulate in the body.

Beta, gamma/x-ray radiation requires "heavier" protection (lead). But there are exceptions for high energy beta-radiation because the resulting Bremstrahlung of high energy beta radiation can be very hard in "heavy" absorbers like lead while it is rather soft in materials like wood. In general these types of radiation do not accumulate either, at best they generate radioactive isotopes from stable isotopes.

Radioactive dust (radioactive isotopes bound to carrier particles) is not considered to be a from of radiation itself, it merely emits radiation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Also, similar in a way to chemo/radio-therapy where radiation is used to kill cancer cells, the radiation can either mutate or kill human cells, and some of the mutated cells might be rejected by the body and just die by itself, and probably flushed out of the body's systems.
Cells are seldom directly fulshed from the body. The typical process is to degrade them. However parts of the degration products maybe reused by the body and are therefore not flushed out. If tere are radioactive isotopes in the reused parts of the degraded cell, they will affect other cells and the destructive cycle goes on, until some cell's kill switch mechanism fails and it becomes a cancer cell (the seed of a tumor).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Supposedly too, the lowest 1-year dose is around 100 milliSv, which equates to around 100,000 microSv. Even if the radiation they work in is about 1000 times greater than the regular 2-3 microSv, the workers can still last around 2-3 months before they have to be quarantined long-term.
Actually these numbers are completely useless unless you know exactly which tissue was exposed to the radiation, and if their bodies were contaminated with radioactive isotopes or not. The problem is, that not only radiation can breed radioactive isotopes inside an organism but the organism can simply inhale or otherwise get the radioactive isotopes inside the body (though I think the workers there are very well protected against that direct way of radioactive isotope contamination - in contrast to the normal people who are living outside the plant).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Unless the decon facilities and MOGG-4 provided are the low-quality ones, I think that out of so many workers, only 9-10% will get cancer in the long term at most.

If that is so, that just pretty much proved Gandhi's nonviolence attitude wrong - apparently some people REALLY need and deserve to die.
You do not need to get cancer to have your life shortend.

Do you know why you are getting older (the decay aspect is meant)? Its because the cells cannot divide endlessly without loosing DNA information. Its like making a copy of a copy in copier, its quality degrades with each copy step. When the quality of the DNA is generaly bad in your body, it will increase the cancer risk AND makes many cells use their kill switch. That means, the older you become, the more cells with good DNA have to replace cells with bad DNA and this makes them divide more often, which also makes them bad DNA cells in the process. Now when you are exposed to radiation, you artificially accelerate this cell ageing mechanism, because you trigger the kill switch of many cells, that were good ones. This can shorten your overall life expectancy, but there is no study that goes so far to take such effects into account - this field of science is utterly understudied and very debated.

Last edited by Jinto; 2011-04-03 at 06:49.
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Old 2011-04-03, 11:42   Link #2092
Vexx
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Boat captain able to ride out tsunami, providing transport now.

Smashed boats adorn the coastline of this once-idyllic tourist spot, but Sugawara's pride and joy, "Sunflower" is intact and working overtime transporting people and aid to and from the island. It can hold around 20 people at a time.
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Old 2011-04-03, 12:09   Link #2093
Highman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Boat captain able to ride out tsunami, providing transport now.

Smashed boats adorn the coastline of this once-idyllic tourist spot, but Sugawara's pride and joy, "Sunflower" is intact and working overtime transporting people and aid to and from the island. It can hold around 20 people at a time.
Saw the video on youtube over the weekend when Tsunami/Earthquake hit happened, needs a background song added from Dio-Holy Diver. This person will be hailed as island hero in his life time.

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Old 2011-04-03, 12:15   Link #2094
Green²
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"Illegal levels of radioactive substances found in Fukushima mushrooms"
Likely that the people that were doing the testing, haven't been eating the mushrooms this time.
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Old 2011-04-03, 12:58   Link #2095
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Diaper-Like Material Unable to Stop Fukushima’s Radioactive Water from Leaking Into the Sea
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Old 2011-04-03, 20:56   Link #2096
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green² View Post
"Illegal levels of radioactive substances found in Fukushima mushrooms"
Likely that the people that were doing the testing, haven't been eating the mushrooms this time.
Nonono, they are eating a different kind of mushroom......
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-04-03, 21:29   Link #2097
Decagon
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To contribute to Jinto's points on cancer,
Spoiler for text:

Quote:
Unless the decon facilities and MOGG-4 provided are the low-quality ones, I think that out of so many workers, only 9-10% will get cancer in the long term at most.
People get cancer all the time, but the body can usually take care of the offending cells under most conditions such that the person does not notice. People who live without cancer just have a combination of more robust systems in place to curb it, whether it is killing the cancerous cells or processing carcinogenic factors and their effects. As it relates to the people doing the repair and cleanup, the older members of the team will probably be more susceptible to developing cancer from their work there. If TEPCO's got any more of those illegal teenage workers, they may be at greater risk than regular adults.
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Old 2011-04-03, 21:51   Link #2098
yezhanquan
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Anyone knows if the areas hit by the big waves are undergoing clean-up and reconstruction, or is everyone's attention on the nuclear crisis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
It is better fixed that way : the recent local politics over here made me think that, actually some of those with crude oratory speak more sense than the nice sounding politicians.
As a rule of thumb, I distrust orators. The more passion the speeches whip up, the more worried I am. Hitler in RL and Mark Antony in fiction are enough warnings.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2011-04-03 at 22:15.
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Old 2011-04-04, 08:37   Link #2099
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
As a rule of thumb, I distrust orators. The more passion the speeches whip up, the more worried I am. Hitler in RL and Mark Antony in fiction are enough warnings.
I don't listen to most debates. I wait for manuscripts or minutes to be released so I read them.

Apparently being partially deaf isn't so bad after all.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-04-04, 14:37   Link #2100
Lord of Fire
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Anyone knows if the areas hit by the big waves are undergoing clean-up and reconstruction, or is everyone's attention on the nuclear crisis?
From what I read in today's newspaper, chances are high that they'll abandon those sites altogether and rebuild the towns on higher ground, mostly because not many people want to live that close to the sea again, in fear of another tsunami.
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