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Old 2011-03-13, 11:00   Link #741
Ithekro
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For that scale disaster? No. No one can be prepared for 10+ meter waves after a nearly 9.0 earthquake. My preparedness is living about 20 miles inland and 30 meters above sea level.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:02   Link #742
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A former nuclear power plant designer has said Japan is facing an extremely grave crisis and called on the government to release more information, which he said was being suppressed. Masashi Goto told a news conference in Tokyo that one of the reactors at the Fukushima-Daiichi plant was "highly unstable", and that if there was a meltdown the "consequences would be tremendous". He said such an event might be very likely indeed. So far, the government has said a meltdown would not lead to a sizeable leak of radioactive materials.

Mr Goto said the reactors at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant were suffering pressure build-ups way beyond that for which they were designed. There was a severe risk of an explosion, with radioactive material being strewn over a very wide area - beyond the 20km evacuation zone set up by the authorities - he added. Mr Goto calculated that because Reactor No 3 at Fukushima-Daiichi - where pressure is rising and there is a risk of an explosion - used a type of fuel known as Mox, a mixture of plutonium oxide and uranium oxide, the radioactive fallout from any meltdown might be twice as bad.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:04   Link #743
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achirist View Post
You first. It's great to know that the people minimizing concerns about radiation are really just pro-nuclear.
I'm not minimizing concerns. I'm just stating facts and the most likely scenarios from given facts. Downplaying would be stating best case, fear mongering would be stating worst case, or even beyond worst case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Nuclear power can be very dangerous... no expense should be spared in engineering plans for various disaster scenarios. So far the only *mistake* I've seen is that they had not considered a backup for the cooling system diesel generator system backups.
Agree. They assumed no tsunami would be high enough to mess with the back up generators, they were wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green² View Post
Japanese words do not match their actions at this point. As they're pumping seawater into the reactor, this is highly likely because they are losing coolant at an extremely high rate. That being a strong indication of a leak in the system, and possibly a result due to the explosion that had occurred.
They are pumping seawater into the containment chamber, not the reactor core itself. The seawater will evaporate removing heat and more will be pumped in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Again, the inner cycle is supposed to be a closed cycle. If they vent it, it is no longer a closed cycle (and therefore sealed or intact... if it was intact it would not have been necessary to vent it). If the inner coolant was contaminated with radioactive fuel before it leaked, the radioactive fuel is in parts outside the power plant now. If they flood the vessel with other stuff now, it will be likely contaminated with fuel too (what are they going to do with it afterwards?).

Thats my whole point, I guess you see things from a different perspective. Certainly we both interprete "intact" in a different way.
Its intact. The coolant inside it is becoming too hot and too high pressure for it to handle, thus they have to vent it it keep it intact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Which means is functionally not intact as it is supposed to not leak anything, not even venting. Do you get it now? You just don't want to understand it?


Just because something is structurally intact from the outside, does not mean it is intact from the inside and more impoartant in this case... functionally intact. It reached critical limits and had to be vented, when this happens something is seriously wrong inside the containment, so that the containment can no longer do what it is supposed to do: contain the inner coolant which under normal conditions must be sealed off from the outside (a closed loop system). Of course the containment vessel can be structurally intact (for the time being). But it failed in what it was supposed to do (but there are several containment layers to prevent bad stuff becoming worse... but the outer containment failed too).



If it was "intact", they could simply resume power generation with it in the next hours. So, much for your concept of "intact".
Functionally, it isn't intact. Its not going to generating electricity ever again. The back up generators for the cooling died, thus temperature and pressure rose rapidly, and thus they had to vent to keep pressure under control. Its still structurally intact and keeping it that way is what matters now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haegar View Post
I am appaled, not by fear-mongering, but by the sheer audacity and EXTREME naivity with which you folks keep on saying FACTS FACTS FACTS the world is alright.

I am not a nuclear expert. I have no clue of how reactors work in detail. Even the simple outlines posted in this thread I do not claim to all understand completely. I am pretty sure neither have most of you. I do however have a clue about one thing - and that is the way politicians and corporate officials act in front of the press when a real shitstorm is about to come down on them. It doesn't take much to see that this is at the very least partially the case here:
If you have no clue how nuclear reactors work, may you please listen to the people that do. Most of the people that do are giving most likely scenarios. Even worst case would be another Three Mile Island, which really isn't that bad if the anti nuclear people didn't push their agenda with it. This isn't going to be another Chernobyl.

The reason that there is a lack of times where the most likely scenario is what happens is because if that was the case we wouldn't remember it. I remember being on a 747 and one engine failed mid flight, we made it to the ground safely and the only consequence was that the next flight was probably canceled. Everything worked just fine, that's why it didn't make the news.

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Originally Posted by rrw View Post
70% chance that a Magnitude 7.0 earthquake will occur in the same place before March 16th at 10:00 AM local time.
oh crap.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:11   Link #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrw View Post
70% chance that a Magnitude 7.0 earthquake will occur in the same place before March 16th at 10:00 AM local time.
Source?------
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:13   Link #745
Ithekro
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Probability studies of aftershocks I'd guess. Since the main quake was a 8.9, aftershocks will be quite large.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:18   Link #746
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this is the local tv channel recording the devastating effects of the tsunami as it goes thru the city.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:20   Link #747
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Cooling systems at a plant in Tokai have now failed according to the Kyodo news agency

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
The Brigade leader also sends her prayers


Yes, it is from Ito herself.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:29   Link #748
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Damn, you'd think they would have invented some sort of insta-kill switch for these things by now.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:29   Link #749
MeoTwister5
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We actually just got three small movements of about 3.0 here in the central Philippine area earlier today, 2 in the morning and one in the evening.

It's been active geologically in out part of the world recently. The big activity over in the Japan area might be causing related activities over the connected systems to our place, which is actually very near. Kind of scary really.

Edit - Here's the link. Now if say Mayon, Taal or Pinatubo start acting up, I'm going to start panicking. I'd rather not see another Pinatubo eruption during my lifetime.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-03-13 at 11:40.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:32   Link #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Damn, you'd think they would have invented some sort of insta-kill switch for these things by now.
they did. all nuclear reactor around japan have automatic insta-kill switch when earthquake happen. it just nuclear do not work as you might expect
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:35   Link #751
Shinji103
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I'm not going to be pretend to be an expert on nuclear stuff (and the whole debate thing about nuclear science a few pages ago got a bit off-topic so I didn't bother to read most of it ), but yeah I would assume that nuclear reactors have heat and pressure in them, which don't just turn off like a light switch.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:45   Link #752
Lumir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Damn, you'd think they would have invented some sort of insta-kill switch for these things by now.
You dont just "turn off" nuclear power. Its not something we have serious control over like fire and electricity. And even those two we dont have 100% control over. Nuclear material/radiation/uranium are in one of the highest categories of powerful and hazardous materials. It takes specific science and procedures to manipulate/control, ones much more complex then fire/electricity. Maby in the future we will have it down like fire and elec but right now its a whole different story.

My feelings and thoughts go out to the people of Japan. I once lived their for 7 years and got to know the culture and people pretty well. They were ready for the quake but not the tsunami. Thing to note here is that even though this is a major disaster the Japanese were VERY prepared compared to other nations. This is due to the fact they have had frequent quakes over the course of time.

The thing that is a little upsetting for me is the government. Japan is a proud country government wise and it shows as all the details are not 100%. The reactors are a SERIOUS issue and could very well effect even America if certain situations arise.

Right now the situation is sitting at a level 4 out of 7, but if any of the reactors melt down its going right to the 6-7 range and would be considered the worst thing to happen since WWII. Its a good thing one of the more critical reactors is having sea water used as a coolant, but what about the others?

I would say something about anime and how some stories about nuclear situations could be discussed but now is not the time.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:49   Link #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumir View Post
Right now the situation is sitting at a level 4 out of 7, but if any of the reactors melt down its going right to the 6-7 range and would be considered the worst thing to happen since WWII. Its a good thing one of the more critical reactors is having sea water used as a coolant, but what about the others?
the maximum it will go is 5. the japan reactor is basically is one of the safest. it wont be the worse thing since Chernobyl or bomb.

... unleash all nuclear reactor in japan reported to be meltdown
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Old 2011-03-13, 12:09   Link #754
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrw View Post
the maximum it will go is 5. the japan reactor is basically is one of the safest. it wont be the worse thing since Chernobyl or bomb.

... unleash all nuclear reactor in japan reported to be meltdown
Well, that applies for all... with the exception of Monju (and maybe Joyo - is it decomissioned already?), a fast breeder.

@Random32,

in my oppinion, that incident would not have been so bad, if at least one block had been fully operational (but with minimum output) in the incident... so the kill switch seems to me like a good idea gone bad (because of unforeseen circumstances).

Last edited by Jinto; 2011-03-13 at 12:26.
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Old 2011-03-13, 12:16   Link #755
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Damn, you'd think they would have invented some sort of insta-kill switch for these things by now.
They are instantly killed when an earthquake occurs. There is still a lot of heat left to remove though, that is what the diesels are for. They broke, they weren't prepared for them not working, thus we has problem.
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Old 2011-03-13, 12:35   Link #756
Guardian Enzo
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Non-sensationalistic opinion from Reuters:

Quote:
Frantic efforts in Japan to cool three nuclear reactors may avert a collapse of the radioactive cores and a more costly clean-up, but there is no risk of an extensive radiation leak, a top UK academic said.
The risk is that uranium and plutonium fuel may fall in on itself, as their metal sheaths melt, creating a molten deposit at the bottom of the reactor which may be impossible to remove, as happened at Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania in 1979.

"Because of the way the core was destroyed (there) it meant that even after it cooled down they couldn't take the fuel out," said Robin Grimes, director of the Center for Nuclear Engineering at Imperial College London.

"They had a load of rubble at the bottom of a metal pot."
"After it's all cooled down it may well still be possible to simply remove the fuel and dispose of it in a relatively normal procedure," said Grimes.

"What's clear because of the incidental radiation being released at the moment, which is significant but not overwhelming, is that the structure of the core is probably still intact. So it's not as bad as Three Mile Island."

DAMAGE TO THE CORE

He was in little doubt that there had been some damage.

Evidence was provided by a blast at one reactor on Saturday, probably caused by a chemical reaction between overheated metal sheaths of the fuel rods and the surrounding water.

"That produces hydrogen and that hydrogen is what was vented and detonated. That tells you, first, that some of the fuel got very hot, and second, that there was a chemical reaction between the cladding of the fuel and the residual water, steam and so forth, and that hydrogen was evolved."

"So you know there's been damage to the core."
Three Mile Island, also rendered useless, was a new reactor. In that case there was no dangerous radiation leak, according to the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, because successive protective shells shielding the core weren't breached.

Serious radiation was also unlikely at Fukushima, said Grimes, given thick, surrounding walls.

"There's no risk of an extensive radiation leak into the surrounding areas. The worst-case scenario is it's just going to be more difficult to clean up."

Authorities have set up exclusion zones around the plants and around 140,000 people have been moved from the area.

The Japan case has little parallel with the Soviet plant at Chernobyl where fundamental design faults led to explosions ripping through a flimsy shell in 1986, causing hundreds of deaths among emergency workers and contamination across Europe.
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Old 2011-03-13, 12:44   Link #757
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrw View Post
Cooling systems at a plant in Tokai have now failed according to the Kyodo news agency
One of three is still working. [Reuters]
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Old 2011-03-13, 12:45   Link #758
Langus
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Originally Posted by Solafighter View Post
Source?------
This has been confirmed by the Japanese Meteorological Agency. They sent out a bulletin in my area because we are on the coast. My friends in Tohoku-ken also received it.

If there is no earthquake by Wednesday 10 AM then the chance of one of that size occurring drops to 50%.

The chances seem good though since several volcanoes have started erupting. Also, the plates that connect where the big Tokai earthquake is supposed to happen haven't shifted in response to the movement of the other two yet. I'm no expert but given how things have been happening in chain reactions so far, it seems like that area is going to have at least some activity.
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Old 2011-03-13, 13:07   Link #759
Jinto
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Quote:
"What's clear because of the incidental radiation being released at the moment, which is significant but not overwhelming..."
I really don't like estimates like that... I mean significant is more than enough if you ask me, but to deduce from the radiation levels alone that it is less dangerous then 3 mile island... sorry that just doesn't make sense. If he was talking about the amount of certain isotopes it would be more plausable.

Why can't such people simply say, there is no imminent danger, but the region will be hit with the radioactive material that was accidentally released (and shut their mouth regarding radiation danger prognoses that cannot be reliably made at the moment). This fission energy lobby is rodden to the core.
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Old 2011-03-13, 13:35   Link #760
Green²
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Quote:
Originally Posted by japantimes.co.jp
Meanwhile, radiation at the Onagawa nuclear power plant in Miyagi Prefecture shot up from late Saturday through early Sunday, Tohoku Electric Power Co. said, adding that radiation levels were low but about 700 times higher than normal.

The government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the rise in radiation was likely caused by substances scattered by the hydrogen explosion that hit the troubled Fukushima plant on Saturday, dismissing the possibility that the Miyagi plant was to blame.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0110314a1.html
Looking it up on Google Earth, am I getting this right?

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