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Old 2011-03-14, 23:04   Link #1001
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
From what I'm gathering from fark, the state of 4 was actually "Idle", not "Shut down" since it still had spent fuel in it. (Link)
Exactly. The reactor was shut down, but spent fuel is still capable of generating radiation and will heat up if not cooled (as appears to be what happened). It's not capable of generating either the heat or radiation of the three reactors that were active when the quake hit, but you still don't want the building on fire and radiation leaking. I still see #2 as by far the biggest risk here - if there really is a hole in the containment vessel that not only means more radiation, but more difficulty in cooling the reactor.

It's also worth mentioning that the more time passes, the less danger there is of catastrophic radiation leaks and that means the next two days are critical. The boric acid will have killed the fission reactions in the three active reactors and they do lose their ability to produce heat and radiation as they decay (which is sort of where we are with #4).

I have a friend who works for the federal government in a nuclear oversight role for DOE. He seems inclined to believe there are no realistic "worst case scenarios" here that could cause a real health risk for Tokyo or points further South and West. He's just one guy, of course, though he's a damn smart one.

Last edited by Guardian Enzo; 2011-03-14 at 23:49.
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Old 2011-03-14, 23:06   Link #1002
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Seriously we need some sort of official twitter update concerning the powerplants. The news media from multiple sources are quoting different information based on different times, and it is really one big mess.

I just don't know what to believe any more.
Well... Japan's nuclear power industry has never been very open about their information. IIRC there was a plant incident a few years ago whose details were not available until a video of the plant's ruined interior was revealed. (Aha, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monju_Nuclear_Power_Plant)

Prime Minister Kan himself has criticized TEPCO for being too slow in bringing information forward:
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/politics/ne...8240017-n1.htm

My terrible attempt at translation: "They [The power plant crew] are not allowed to retreat. If they leave, TEPCO shall be 100% ruined."
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Old 2011-03-14, 23:14   Link #1003
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claies View Post
Well... Japan's nuclear power industry has never been very open about their information. IIRC there was a plant incident a few years ago whose details were not available until a video of the plant's ruined interior was revealed. (Aha, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monju_Nuclear_Power_Plant)

Prime Minister Kan himself has criticized TEPCO for being too slow in bringing information forward:
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/politics/ne...8240017-n1.htm

My terrible attempt at translation: "They [The power plant crew] are not allowed to retreat. If they leave, TEPCO shall be 100% ruined."
That last line was aimed directly at the voters.

To be fair, it seems to me as if no country's nuclear energy is especially forthcoming. Rather than pardoning TEPCO, I merely suggest they're no worse than anyone else in the industry.
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Old 2011-03-14, 23:44   Link #1004
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Fire at reactor #4 is out, according to BBC.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:02   Link #1005
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Quote:
My terrible attempt at translation: "They [The power plant crew] are not allowed to retreat. If they leave, TEPCO shall be 100% ruined."
It is hard to envision any other resolution to this situation that doesn't involve in TEPCO getting massively shafted.

Wouldn't be surprised if there was a wave of suicides among the top brass. Or at least those who just can't take the money and run. Same for the current Japanese government.

OTOH, if I was one of the plants' workers, I would have fled a long time ago.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:09   Link #1006
Claies
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Bayoab: It's more likely 9,700 out of the village population of 17,000 confirmed sheltered and safe instead of out of 10,000 believed missing. NHK reports 8,000 still missing.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/2011...683531000.html
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:10   Link #1007
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Nikkei online had put out an article which read "9700 of the missing found alive/evacuated." It was a mistake and they have since corrected the article but it's still spreading around english twitter. The correct statement should be "9700 residents found alive/evacuated."
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:11   Link #1008
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Measured NHK says it's still a critical situation despite no official reports of waste leakage.

In relation to above, I was always a little leery of the Japanese wire services getting info that I didn't hear on the TV or Radio or getting similar info very very fast.

Just watched Al Jazeera and France 24, didn't say anything we didn't hear. As opposed to more cautious NHK, they didn't highlight officials saying that the radiation levels in Tokyo having any dicernable effect on health. There was also more speculation of a meltdown occuring or highly possible, whereas I haven't seen that mentioned much in NHK or the major papers.

France 24 elaborated on citizen anger about TOPEC's being dodgy with the info, the Yomiuri is ridding that wave a bit as well, NHK hasn't highlighted conflict or theatrical stories of struggle/survival, focusing largely on Press Conference coverage, analysis of scientific info and danger and general safety information, stats/figures and livelihood disruption.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:16   Link #1009
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Tokyo is detecting radiation levels up to 20 times above normal. Authorities are stressing that this level poses no biological danger.

Ishihara has formally retracted and apologized for his earlier "divine punishment" remark.
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/politics/ne...3400001-n1.htm

Last edited by Claies; 2011-03-15 at 00:29.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:17   Link #1010
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I've been on and off the phone with a friend who says the plant's radiation that escapes into the air would not be lethal enough to kill people around the area.

Can anyone confirm this as true or false?
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:22   Link #1011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It is hard to envision any other resolution to this situation that doesn't involve in TEPCO getting massively shafted.
I see mass resignations and jail for the management.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:25   Link #1012
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
I've been on and off the phone with a friend who says the plant's radiation that escapes into the air would not be lethal enough to kill people around the area.

Can anyone confirm this as true or false?
A press conference details the following amounts of radiation in the plants' immediate vicinity. I don't know the level of dilution that the wind and air is giving it.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/
Space between units #2 and 3: 30 mSv
Near unit #3: 400 mSv
Near unit #4: 100 mSv

According to the Wikipedia article for Radiation Poisoning, mortality for 1-2 Sv is 0-5%, far lower for those with proper treatment.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:31   Link #1013
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http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/science/new...htm?from=main7

Yomiuri reports that a health research center in Shinjuku in Tokyo has been reading 0.035 micro sv until yesterday, and registered a spike up to 0.809 micro sv by 10 AM this morning, and it's now gone down to 0.151 micro sv.

The previous high ever recorded there was 0.079 micro sv.

Keeping this in perspective, the highest reading right next to the plant was 400 milli sv, which is 500000 times higher.

And even 400 milli sv is only seriously dangerous if you are exposed to it for more than a few hours.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:31   Link #1014
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Supermarket after Earthquake.

http://shibuya246.com/2011/03/13/sup...er-earthquake/
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:32   Link #1015
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Ah, that explains why I was lost in the terms. I've never encountered the SI units for radiation before. Use to the rad still.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:36   Link #1016
solomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
The previous high ever recorded there was 0.079 micro sv.

Keeping this in perspective, the highest reading right next to the plant was 400 milli sv, which is 500000 times higher.

And even 400 milli sv is only seriously dangerous if you are exposed to it for more than a few hours.

This type of qualification is not being expressed often enough in the media, and in my opinion is where the more restrained Japanese style reporting is doing a better service.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:39   Link #1017
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claies View Post
Tokyo is detecting radiation levels up to 20 times above normal. Authorities are stressing that this level poses no biological danger.

Ishihara has formally retracted and apologized for his earlier "divine punishment" remark.
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/politics/ne...3400001-n1.htm
When he apologizes for existing, then you can call me.

Do you have a source for that Tokyo radiation number? Based on the prevailing winds over the last 96 hours it seems to defy the laws of physics.

Edit: Thanks for the source, Quarkboy.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:48   Link #1018
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Did anyone see the NHK footage of the Chiba Mayor chewing some TOPEC reps? I believe there is some problems with the rolling blackouts and complaints are being raised.
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Old 2011-03-15, 01:02   Link #1019
Claies
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Holy crap, the Nikkei dropped over 1000 points from yesterday. That's from already falling below 10000 due to the disaster.

Even the JSDF and the Ministry of Defense are pissed about TEPCO being unresponsive.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/ne...OYT1T00496.htm

Last edited by Claies; 2011-03-15 at 01:13.
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Old 2011-03-15, 01:15   Link #1020
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Charity Manga train keeps rolling; This time by Kodansha related artists. Manga-ka of Nodame, GTO, Hell Girl, Suzuka and others contribute

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-quake-charity
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