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Old 2013-04-22, 08:09   Link #461
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelolita_ View Post
I'm wondering about something.
5 years ago Berthold (what's the correct spelling? Sorry, I'm using German one for now lol) kicked a hole into the wall of shiganshina.
How the hell did he get there?
I mean, he was like 10 or 11 at that time, right?
How did he get out of the city? I doubt people would just let a little kid pass into the "titan's territory".
And after he transformed back into his normal self, how did he manage to flee from the titans? I can't imagine him, still a child, already having the 3D equipment.
Wouldn't he have been titan food if he had to run all the way to wall rose by himself?
And if he boarded the ship that brought people there, I'm wondering how he managed to get to it in the first place with all those titans running around (and him being OUTSIDE Shiganshina's wall, at least that's where he should've been after attacking it).

Sorry, maybe I missed something, but I'm wondering about that for a while
There is a huge time skip between the actual fall of Wall Maria and the time were things were practically settled behind wall Rose.

I imagine that there was absolute chaos by then. Nobody was even remotely prepared to the fall of Wall Maria and the area included in it is absolutely huge, so huge that the Titan themselves must have taken days before occupying it all.

With this scenario it isn't hard to imagine that the refugees retreated to wall Rose in a very disorderly fashion, coming not just from one gate but from all the four of them.

I can also assume that most of the "late arrivals" were people who were warned about the titans late (such as the village Berthold and Reiner claim to come from) but had horses to still be able to escape.
Berthold and Reiner could have used horses and mixed themselves with those refugees.


The way Berthold managed to get outside Wall Maria is however very difficult to explain. The best guess I can take is that Berthold and Reiner first went to Shiganshina. From there Berthold somehow managed to climb on the top of the wall without being noticed. This is the hardest part though, how did he manage that? I don't know if there are stairs to climb up there, it would make sense if there are, but I don't remember seeing any.
Anyway from there it was easy. Berthold just had to throw himself and transform before reaching the ground.

The colossal Titan quickly vanished soon after destroying the gate. I imagine that he walked inside the wall from the hole he had just created. the thick smoke was probably enough to conceal him, and most people were likely running away in terror. A risky move, but not so much if Reiner was there to protect him in case some titan was going to follow him rather than some other human.

It is possible that Berthold had already joined the refugees before Reiner destroyed the second gate, or he could have been inside Reiner's mouth (the anime seems to deny that though).

Oh, and there is also the possibility that Berthold and Reiner come from some human settlement outside the walls, which it is hinted to exist. In that case Reiner probably brought Berthold near the wall. Reiner doesn't look much different from a regular titan so nobody was alarmed when he approached.


I'm just guessing but there are a few viable options. Hopefully the manga will give us a more detailed explanation on this issue.
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Old 2013-04-22, 08:34   Link #462
Accelolita_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is a huge time skip between the actual fall of Wall Maria and the time were things were practically settled behind wall Rose.
I forget that it would take alot of time for everything to settle. It went by so fast by watching the anime that I actually thought it was done in a few hours
Thanks for clearing that up!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The way Berthold managed to get outside Wall Maria is however very difficult to explain. The best guess I can take is that Berthold and Reiner first went to Shiganshina. From there Berthold somehow managed to climb on the top of the wall without being noticed. This is the hardest part though, how did he manage that? I don't know if there are stairs to climb up there, it would make sense if there are, but I don't remember seeing any.
Anyway from there it was easy. Berthold just had to throw himself and transform before reaching the ground.

[...]

I'm just guessing but there are a few viable options. Hopefully the manga will give us a more detailed explanation on this issue.
I thought the only way to get up the walls is at the gates, but who knows.
I also hope we get more explanations about that.


I'm wondering about other things, too, though.
First: I wonder if Shiganshina only was the target because "the main character was there" or if there was another reason behind it. Like, what if the MC would've been somewhere else, would Berthold still attack Shiganshina because for some (unknown) reasons?

Second: There're always 4 cities like Shiganshina at each wall (to be the "bait" for titans), right?
Shiganshina had to be evacuated because the gate got destroyed and of course there're titans between Wall Maria and Wall Rose, but why would the other three "bait" cities flee inside Wall Rose?
Because they would've been cut off entirely of everyone else inside Wall Rose?
Since they sacrificed around 250.000 people anyway, they could've just stayed in their respective cities (apart from people of Shiganshina of course) and I guess they would've had more chances to survive
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Old 2013-04-22, 10:04   Link #463
Tranhieu
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
why should they?
at that time they don't know for more than 100 years that human can become titan
+
most people from third wall already dead so it's hard to ask about them.
Ok just realized I got things mixed up after recalling that Hanji said something about digging up the document and found out those 2 guys are somehow related to Annie.

However that beg another question: assuming those 3 are truly from the same village, why being so honest when filling out papers? Are they making it easy for the squad leaders to sniff out the traitors?

Anyway, back to what you ask in the previous post, is there any army that doesn't keep a record of its soldiers, and a spec-op squad in this case that is? Mutiny aside, they of course have to send the remains of any KIA soldier back to the family right? It was made clear in the manga that collecting and identifying anyone who were lost in battles is also an important task.
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Old 2013-04-22, 10:21   Link #464
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by Tranhieu View Post
Ok just realized I got things mixed up after recalling that Hanji said something about digging up the document and found out those 2 guys are somehow related to Annie.

However that beg another question: assuming those 3 are truly from the same village, why being so honest when filling out papers? Are they making it easy for the squad leaders to sniff out the traitors?

Anyway, back to what you ask in the previous post, is there any army that doesn't keep a record of its soldiers, and a spec-op squad in this case that is? Mutiny aside, they of course have to send the remains of any KIA soldier back to the family right? It was made clear in the manga that collecting and identifying anyone who were lost in battles is also an important task.
After wall maria all what they have to said is every single member of their family/village = is dead

and since they don't know about human who can become titan or that there is still some human who live outside the wall == they don't need to ask any more questions


from their point of view = the only human that exist are those who live inside the wall.
==
so they believe that every single human is their ally till human titan show up
( that why they was so confuse when Eren become titan, is he ally? or enemy? he is titan but human )

Last edited by Gundamx; 2013-04-22 at 11:26.
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Old 2013-04-22, 10:35   Link #465
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelolita_ View Post
I'm wondering about other things, too, though.
First: I wonder if Shiganshina only was the target because "the main character was there" or if there was another reason behind it. Like, what if the MC would've been somewhere else, would Berthold still attack Shiganshina because for some (unknown) reasons?
I think doctor Jaeger is probably at the center of it all. It may be that the basement was one of their objective, however it's probably not the only one.
Anyway... yeah if they planned to eliminate the whole wall Maria it didn't really matter from where to initiate their attack. Shiganshina would have become titan territory anyway.
It is doubtful that Eren was their objective already back then, and it is hinted he wasn't, given by what Reiner said just before revealing his true nature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelolita_ View Post
Second: There're always 4 cities like Shiganshina at each wall (to be the "bait" for titans), right?
Shiganshina had to be evacuated because the gate got destroyed and of course there're titans between Wall Maria and Wall Rose, but why would the other three "bait" cities flee inside Wall Rose?
Because they would've been cut off entirely of everyone else inside Wall Rose?
Since they sacrificed around 250.000 people anyway, they could've just stayed in their respective cities (apart from people of Shiganshina of course) and I guess they would've had more chances to survive
Well first, the most important reason: the bait walled cities are only concentrated human settlements, there are no crops inside them. There is really little point in remaining in a city where people are doomed to die of starvation.

Second: As soon as news of what happened on Shiganshina reached them they probably all panicked and decided to retreat asap. They probably imagined that their cities would fall as well and that the military would never bother defending the gates of a wall that had already fallen. In fact it is very likely that the military already present on those places were given instructions to retreat to wall Rose to bolster its defense.
We have seen how selfish humans are in this world, they most likely prioritized wall Rose over everything else. And it's not like it was a wrong decision given the situation.
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:37   Link #466
Tranhieu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
After wall maria all what they have to said is every single member of their family/village = is dead

and since they don't know about human who can become titan or that there is still some human who live outside the wall == they don't need to ask any more questions


for their point of view = the only human that exist are those who live inside the wall.
==
so they believe that every single human is their ally till human titan show up
( that why they was so confuse when Eren become titan, is he ally? or enemy? he is titan but human )
Yeah hence the 'mutiny aside'. And there're tons of reasons to keep track of soldiers' details other than singling out the traitors. People in WW2 didn't go to battles wearing dog tags for nothing.

Anyway I already admitted it was wrong to assume Berthold and Reiner didn't tell the higherups their origin and they did fill in where they came from in the documents (or else how could Hanji's subordinates found their family registers?) so discussing this matter any further is kinda unnecessary.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:41   Link #467
Accelolita_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well first, the most important reason: the bait walled cities are only concentrated human settlements, there are no crops inside them. There is really little point in remaining in a city where people are doomed to die of starvation.

Second: As soon as news of what happened on Shiganshina reached them they probably all panicked and decided to retreat asap. They probably imagined that their cities would fall as well and that the military would never bother defending the gates of a wall that had already fallen. In fact it is very likely that the military already present on those places were given instructions to retreat to wall Rose to bolster its defense.
We have seen how selfish humans are in this world, they most likely prioritized wall Rose over everything else. And it's not like it was a wrong decision given the situation.
Ah right, forgot that they wouldn't have anything to get food.
Thanks again for clearing something up I had in mind, sorry to bother you with that

About Eren, though it's something from recent chapter: I hope that Berthold gets to catch Eren and he'll be brought to the village Rainer talked about. Maybe we get to know a bit more about their motives and all since Annie shut herself up
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Old 2013-04-22, 14:17   Link #468
Jan-Poo
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Eren is just being Eren, Mikasa is just being Mikasa. After all they are 15 years old, but if it was me, I would have tried to talk to Reiner and Berthold, even if it turns out they are awful monsters (which is probably not the case) there isn't much to gain from fighting them now that it was made clear there are other titans like them.

Gathering intelligence should be a priority.
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Old 2013-04-22, 16:48   Link #469
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post

Oh, and there is also the possibility that Berthold and Reiner come from some human settlement outside the walls, which it is hinted to exist. In that case Reiner probably brought Berthold near the wall. Reiner doesn't look much different from a regular titan so nobody was alarmed when he approached.


I'm just guessing but there are a few viable options. Hopefully the manga will give us a more detailed explanation on this issue.
Hmm, I always just assumed that the Human Titans live beyond the wall since they were introduced. Was it ever stated in the manga that any of the trio actually lived inside the wall some time in their life (aside from the lies they told to blend in)?
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Old 2013-04-22, 17:12   Link #470
Kanon
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I've also always assumed they came from outside the walls. That's what makes the most sense to me. The flashbacks are misleading.
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Old 2013-04-22, 18:41   Link #471
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Hmm, I always just assumed that the Human Titans live beyond the wall since they were introduced. Was it ever stated in the manga that any of the trio actually lived inside the wall some time in their life (aside from the lies they told to blend in)?
It was never said that they come from outside either.
We don't know if they lied about the village they come from, but if they did, either they made sure there was no survivor from there that could testify they never met them before, or they took the risk.
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Old 2013-04-22, 21:28   Link #472
Tranhieu
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I've also always assumed they came from outside the walls. That's what makes the most sense to me. The flashbacks are misleading.
That was also my thought at first, but upon reading chapter 42 I was convinced those 3 are from within the walls, unless they managed to forge the documents which conveniently pointed out they all came from the same place.
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Old 2013-04-23, 03:22   Link #473
theflyingturkey
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Unrelated to the story, but I'm having a fangasm for the author's research.

Annie's moves look straight out of Pankration, aka Ancient Greek MMA and the author certainly knows what she's talking about for plate armour.
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Old 2013-04-24, 17:40   Link #474
X207
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ive only read up to vol4 though ive already found out this is one of the most brutal series ive read so far. Elfen Lied and Berserk are similar though EL is a bit more cold hearted. i wasnt too prepared to read/see characters seen in realistic terms or being killed so easily. it still shocks me a bit but im getting used to it and have become a bit reluctant to get attached to any particular character as they can die any time. i like the setting of the whole series though i dont think id much like to live in such a world myself.
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Old 2013-04-24, 22:02   Link #475
Raviel
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I'm a bit late to the party but I finally caught up to the manga after watching the anime (I got impatient XD), for some weird reason being spoiled for this series doesn't really feel so bad because the author has barely told us anything about all the important questions (i.e. Origins of the wall, what exactly are the titans, among others).

The author is also really good at keeping this constant feeling of desperation throughout the entire story with the cast more than willing to gamble humanity's survival on plans that rely on things that may backfire on them horribly (i.e. the plan to take back Trost with Eren's Titan form)

Now, were there any hints to what actually happened during the following incidents:

1. What exactly happened at Connie's hometown?
2. Who was that second person Bertholdt swallowed?
3. Are there any clues as to who gave the people who could turn into Titans their abilities?

P.S. I'm really hoping Historia/Christa can finally give us all some answers, the plot is so thick you could cut it with a knife right now.
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Old 2013-04-24, 22:48   Link #476
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1. It is heavily implied that people of Connie's village turned to Titan, at least his mother.
2. Don't remember, they don't seem to tell who it is for some reason. But probably there are some clues
3. Not really, but I believe Ymir was got the power before Bertholdt and Reiner, so I am guessing someone inside the wall rather than outside.
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Old 2013-04-25, 08:03   Link #477
Jan-Poo
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Let's make a list of all the named characters that are supposed to be there at the time Berthold grabs Ymir:

Historia/Christa
Connie
Hanji
Eren
Armin
Mikasa
Hannes

Named characters that we see after the mysterious man was eaten:

Historia/Christa
Connie
Hanji
Eren
Armin
Mikasa

Unless I'm missing someone it's either an unnamed character or Hannes.
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Old 2013-04-25, 09:59   Link #478
Kanon
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Hannes had already left before the battle started, I think. At least I don't recall seeing him after he said he was leaving.
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Old 2013-04-25, 13:21   Link #479
Raviel
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Were there only Scouting Legion members left on the wall before Bertholdt put Ymir and that other person in his mouth? If they were all Scouting Legion members we could narrow down the list to that and narrow it down even further if the only Scouting Legion members present were part of Hanji's team (besides Eren, Historia, Mikasa, Connie, and Armin of course).

When you think about it, it would make sense that there could be a traitor in Hanji's research group, such a person would be in a perfect position to provide information for either Annie, Reiner, or Bertholdt.

Last edited by Raviel; 2013-04-25 at 14:03.
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Old 2013-04-25, 13:21   Link #480
Randrak42
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Hmmm...what if the Titans are always smiling because the people piloting them on in dream like states like Eren was, thus happy but not knowing what horrible deeds they are doing. If I remember correctly the only Titans no smiling all the time are human-titans that have full control over their titan forms.
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