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Old 2011-09-23, 20:10   Link #1121
hyuu-fai
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Join Date: Sep 2011
I think this is brilliant and anyone who says otherwise is one of those people who have been "shatting" on the series form the start and are not man enough to say there where wrong. I have studied play and screen theater for 5 years now and in my opinion CLAMP has outdone some of the best

I am also man enough to say while I did figure out a lot: Like the teacher being on the "good side" but just for her own selfish reason which would lead to her demise (which I predicted on page 51 (I wont quote cause it was a long ass post), Fumito being the villain and Saya's dad being a pet- I HONESTLY thought yuka, takizane and the twins where just there to be offed to drive the story forward- which was exactly what CLAMP wanted me to think so they did get me there-

What i love is how the breakdown of the characters went, with Yuuka and class president turning out to be goodye to shoes, while the twins and tokizane turning out to be selfish criminals, it really creats a story withing the story.

I also LOVE how they pulled the whole "everything is fake" off- I honestly did not think that would be the case cause i doubted it could be done without being cheesy but CLAMP NAILED IT. Partilly because of the paranormal aspect and that the monsters where real and that everyone except the main cast was dieing

NATURALLY though this is CLAMP- thus the best part is that they didn't pull anything out of nowhere (which is what proves this is not poor writing for any missinformed person who thinks it is) watch the first three episode and pay attention and you could have figured it all out there- an empty city, a road leading nowhere, the phases of the moon and the heat proving it was summer (in Japan they have a shorter summer break but still break should have been mentioned), moon phases illustrating real time, the bran new ancient books, everything the teacher says- it is all there- I mean she GAVE it to us with her only listing saya in the attendance and then later her response to Saya worried about her naivety troubling everyone else. And then of course, the fact that her sword that she fought with was different from the one passing her in the dream.

now the only question left is where is WATa-inu, is he a villain as well and CLAMP just pulled the watanuki card to win our trust- or will he save the day?
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Old 2011-09-23, 20:36   Link #1122
Forsaken_Infinity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyuu-fai View Post
I think this is brilliant and anyone who says otherwise is one of those people who have been "shatting" on the series form the start and are not man enough to say there where wrong. I have studied play and screen theater for 5 years now and in my opinion CLAMP has outdone some of the best

I am also man enough to say while I did figure out a lot: Like the teacher being on the "good side" but just for her own selfish reason which would lead to her demise (which I predicted on page 51 (I wont quote cause it was a long ass post), Fumito being the villain and Saya's dad being a pet- I HONESTLY thought yuka, takizane and the twins where just there to be offed to drive the story forward- which was exactly what CLAMP wanted me to think so they did get me there-

What i love is how the breakdown of the characters went, with Yuuka and class president turning out to be goodye to shoes, while the twins and tokizane turning out to be selfish criminals, it really creats a story withing the story.

I also LOVE how they pulled the whole "everything is fake" off- I honestly did not think that would be the case cause i doubted it could be done without being cheesy but CLAMP NAILED IT. Partilly because of the paranormal aspect and that the monsters where real and that everyone except the main cast was dieing

NATURALLY though this is CLAMP- thus the best part is that they didn't pull anything out of nowhere (which is what proves this is not poor writing for any missinformed person who thinks it is) watch the first three episode and pay attention and you could have figured it all out there- an empty city, a road leading nowhere, the phases of the moon and the heat proving it was summer (in Japan they have a shorter summer break but still break should have been mentioned), moon phases illustrating real time, the bran new ancient books, everything the teacher says- it is all there- I mean she GAVE it to us with her only listing saya in the attendance and then later her response to Saya worried about her naivety troubling everyone else. And then of course, the fact that her sword that she fought with was different from the one passing her in the dream.

now the only question left is where is WATa-inu, is he a villain as well and CLAMP just pulled the watanuki card to win our trust- or will he save the day?
I severely dislike your tone in the post. While I am among those who now "like" the show and think that it was most definitely not bad if not pretty good, it doesn't mean people who think the show went about presenting itself wrong are not man enough or crap like that. You can claim they are wrong but you can't and shouldn't judge their character. Why does it always have to be the case that both the fans and the critics of a show come down to ad-hominem in their arguments? >_> I think the problem is that most people see an argument as something to "win" which isn't the case. You participate in a discussion because it's mutually beneficial. It's not a sadistic game you beat others at their own game, get them to shut up and then proclaim you are a man and they not. Opinions are just that and the more varied they are, the better a discussion will be. Don't take things personally because that's only your loss really. Critics are very valuable, as valuable as the reasonable fans and definitely more valuable than the blind ones. At least in terms of quality (economically... the blind fans make or break the product in today's world whether we like it or not). Proclaiming them as wusses is wrong.

However, it is alright for you to say the critics are being overly critical and that some people just need to chill down and stop playing the critic because they are focusing more on the negative than on the positive. People who bash you for stating that are just as flawed as you are in this post where you call people that are critical of the show as lacking manliness, whatever that is meant to imply.

Do note that it is completely within your discretion to think of them as wusses. But you had better keep it to yourself if you wish to be paid any heed to in a discussion. Ad-hominem almost always turns the discussion sour and unproductive. And that is never cool. You lose if you come down to that while the idea wasn't to win or lose but to gain a better perspective of the complete picture together. Both people like you and the haters had better realize that before you break and ruin all the fun although I figure its too late for the most part.
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Old 2011-09-23, 20:54   Link #1123
orion
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Originally Posted by LKK View Post
.

On a different note, did anyone else think that the giant dog-like creature that burst from the temple was our sweet wish-granting dog in another form?
The eyes were reminding me of the creature that initially captured her, prob Saya's dad I bet.
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Old 2011-09-23, 23:47   Link #1124
Asury
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I still don't understand what's going on XD
This episode made me feel like when I read tsubasa reservoir; it's a constant "waat?"

On a sidenote, this episode made me feel very bad for Saya.... she's the loneliest Saya ever...
Otonashi had a lot of people that cared for her
the first Saya (or this one, before the memory wash, who knows at this point) was a loner and didn't care

But Kisaragi really liked her life, and then "psyke! everyone hates you!"
I want a happy ending for her, I really do
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Old 2011-09-23, 23:57   Link #1125
Solace
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
And I don't get what people want.
  1. Vampires
  2. Vampire chick killing Vampires
  3. Fanservice
  4. Plot advancement every episode that magically balances telling you some things without telling you everything - but no boring talks. If you're gonna talk, do it while killing stuff. Maybe explode a few things and have the Vampires shoot laser beams from their asses. Because they can.
  5. Vampires
  6. No twins
  7. Pacing is too slow. More people telling me whats going on thx
  8. Not enough fanservice. Twins suck.
  9. HOLY SHIT DID THAT JUST HAPPEN!? moment that everyone will talk about for weeks and just as quickly forget but somehow use rose colored goggles when referencing it
  10. Did I mention Vampires. Preferably the kind with fangs.
  11. Wtf no Haji? Fail.
  12. OMG get on with the plot already!
  13. Oh I so called that! This show is lame.
  14. I f******ing hate CLAMP
  15. There better not be magic
  16. Oh wtf it's the Truman Show
  17. Twins still suck.....but I'd hit 'em. A lot. Like the fist of an angry god.
That should just about cover it.
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Old 2011-09-24, 00:13   Link #1126
Xagzan
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^ Well at long last we finally got to see a vampire chick doing vampire things. Appropriately, Saya ended up being the first one in that category.

I don't mind talks without killing things, but the talks in the early episodes didn't do anything for me because they just consisted of the twins being stupid, Saya being annoying, Yuka being...well, nothing, and the class rep being boring. I guess that was the point? But it could've been executed better, again by giving the characters "real" fake personalities.
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Old 2011-09-24, 00:39   Link #1127
Dawnstorm
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Count me among the "meh" crowd. First off: every single reveal was prepared and made sense. The plot is solid and makes sense. Also, there was this puzzling phenomenon where the more screentime a character got the less I cared if they died. Now I know why. It makes sense. If you're watching for plot, I can sort of see why you would like the show.

But I don't. I watch for character. And here the show hasn't given me anything. Since everything was fake from the start (and it felt fake from the start), I never got to care for anyone. I just barely care for Saya's father, of all people. But that's about it. If they hadn't focussed on surprise, and each character had their own development, you could have a complex story about characters double crossing each other for their own gain, with poor naive (and fake) Saya caught in the middle.

I honestly think keeping the secret was a bad move, because it removed all drama from the show. Admit it from episode one, and you can actually develop all their motivations, making me care what happens to them. As it stands, I had an "ah" experience (nothing surprised me too much, really).

I also think huge monster is daddy. And I'd say you can't discount Tokizane yet, as his "I did it for the money," sounds a bit like an act, too, and doesn't account for the looks that he exchanged with Saya's father (unless that guy, too, owes him money?). The problem is that - at that point - I don't care much if I'm wrong or right. Put me in charge of the writing, and just before the final reveal, it turns out the entire village is a giant furukimono, and it swallows them all whole, so they all die surprised. (Luckily, they did not hire me, so you'll get the real ending. )
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Old 2011-09-24, 01:03   Link #1128
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
Since everything was fake from the start (and it felt fake from the start), I never got to care for anyone.
Nailed it right here. I completely agree. I have some emotion for the characters, but they're all very shallow and fake. Intentional? Debatable. But definitely throw aways. It's the single biggest problem with the show. Neat plot, good atmosphere, etc., and none of it really matters because you can't feel attached to anything.

Maybe the staff did their job too well?

You're absolutely right, the plot and the audio visual elements are what have kept me tuning in. I want to know how the mystery ends. However I feel nothing for the characters, and that's a shame. Well, that's not entirely true. I feel sympathy for Saya (that's one heck of a mind screw) and the Teacher and the twins are neat to watch.
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Old 2011-09-24, 01:24   Link #1129
Reckoner
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The idea isn't necessarily flawed in this anime, but it was executed horribly. I get the point in setting up Saya's "fake" life, but this was.... Should I say not well done? The character interactions were fake, sure I get that... But they need to make this interesting. The pay off just didn't seem big enough to justify how much of a grind it was at the start.
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Old 2011-09-24, 02:48   Link #1130
Jerseykid
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I don't feel anything for any of these people. It's a very strange feeling as someone who likes to watch anime every day if he could. I've been able to appreciate Saya fighting at least.
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Old 2011-09-24, 05:41   Link #1131
Gohan78
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As expected as this revelation was, it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
Are you telling me that the furukimono that "ate" the first twin was actually munching a fake corpse? And how the heck did Tokizane escape the furukimono under Saya's eyes while leaving a pool of blood in his stead? Even Yuka... did she carry a pack of fake blood with her all the time?
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Old 2011-09-24, 08:57   Link #1132
Xagzan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Nailed it right here. I completely agree. I have some emotion for the characters, but they're all very shallow and fake. Intentional? Debatable. But definitely throw aways. It's the single biggest problem with the show. Neat plot, good atmosphere, etc., and none of it really matters because you can't feel attached to anything.

Maybe the staff did their job too well?

You're absolutely right, the plot and the audio visual elements are what have kept me tuning in. I want to know how the mystery ends. However I feel nothing for the characters, and that's a shame. Well, that's not entirely true. I feel sympathy for Saya (that's one heck of a mind screw) and the Teacher and the twins are neat to watch.
Exactly my point. That's what I meant about giving the classmates actual personalities and meaningful connections with Saya and each other, even if they were fake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
As expected as this revelation was, it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
Are you telling me that the furukimono that "ate" the first twin was actually munching a fake corpse? And how the heck did Tokizane escape the furukimono under Saya's eyes while leaving a pool of blood in his stead? Even Yuka... did she carry a pack of fake blood with her all the time?
You know I've been wondering about that too. I have zero answer. I mean...how do you escape being impaled?
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Old 2011-09-24, 09:34   Link #1133
klare
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this might be the first eps without any action... no matter what happen, i still think the actions were good in this series, especially eps 1

i guess in the final eps, Saya will slay them all, get back her memories, escape the village and start singing her cheerful song with blood all over her body, the end
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Old 2011-09-24, 09:42   Link #1134
fertygo
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
As expected as this revelation was, it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
Are you telling me that the furukimono that "ate" the first twin was actually munching a fake corpse? And how the heck did Tokizane escape the furukimono under Saya's eyes while leaving a pool of blood in his stead? Even Yuka... did she carry a pack of fake blood with her all the time?
Maybe the ring that they wearing is similar like the one in The Vampire Diaries or something, that's the only explanation I can come with.
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Old 2011-09-24, 14:24   Link #1135
Asury
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
  1. Wtf no Haji? Fail.
I agree with this poster, specially this part
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Old 2011-09-24, 14:29   Link #1136
Key Board
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The charm swaps your body with a random NPC when you are about to get killed

maybe

But it's only time before they run out of meat shields
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Old 2011-09-24, 16:20   Link #1137
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
I don't mind talks without killing things, but the talks in the early episodes didn't do anything for me because they just consisted of the twins being stupid, Saya being annoying, Yuka being...well, nothing, and the class rep being boring. I guess that was the point? But it could've been executed better, again by giving the characters "real" fake personalities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
I honestly think keeping the secret was a bad move, because it removed all drama from the show. Admit it from episode one, and you can actually develop all their motivations, making me care what happens to them. As it stands, I had an "ah" experience (nothing surprised me too much, really).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
You're absolutely right, the plot and the audio visual elements are what have kept me tuning in. I want to know how the mystery ends. However I feel nothing for the characters, and that's a shame. Well, that's not entirely true. I feel sympathy for Saya (that's one heck of a mind screw) and the Teacher and the twins are neat to watch.
This a hundred times. This series has two humongous problems for me:

A plot that revolves ENTIRELY around one huge reveal. We had nine or so episodes that did nothing other than hint at this conspiracy. I would have been fine with it if the reveal had been mind-blowing. However, the hints were so obvious some of us had already guessed we were watching the Truman show with vampires not even three episodes in. While there were a few interesting infos distilled in a couple more episodes, most of them are still rather pointless. You could easily cut out more than half of the episodes and you wouldn't lose out on anything.

The second problem is the lack of any actual characters. They could have avoided turning this into a total snorefest if the characters hadn't been all incredibly shallow, and their interaction with Saya superficial. It was intentional, I get it. Sadly, a show were not a single character is likable is not very fun to follow. Don't even get me started on Saya. She's nothing more than a doll.

What else is left? The fights, which started feeling very forced after a while. It's like they had a quota of blood to fill. At least some of them were neatly animated.

Now, about the episode itself. While the big surprise was no surprise at all, I enjoyed seeing the twins and Tokizane taking off their masks. I particularly loved that Tokizane turned out to be disgusted by Saya. I also enjoy the twins a lot more now that they're annoying cunts rather than plain annoying. The twins (and Tokizane) being simple humans who faked their deaths was indeed unexpected... mostly because that's impossible. They had bells that repels monsters? That's cool, except they were killed right in front of Saya, I would think she would have noticed something. Unless... wait a minute... she didn't see anything because of those giant beams of light/darkness! The censorship was in her mind! Now that I think about it, we didn't see their deaths because of it either. It all makes sense now.

Oh, I forgot about the dog. He's the only decent character in this series, even if his presence seems uncalled for. I'm waiting for an explanation but I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 2011-09-24, 17:23   Link #1138
Triple_R
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Quote:
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We had nine or so episodes that did nothing other than hint at this conspiracy. I would have been fine with it if the reveal had been mind-blowing. However, the hints were so obvious some of us had already guessed we were watching the Truman show with vampires not even three episodes in.
Yeah, I think that's the key problem here.

Blood-C winked winked, and nudged nudged, about its big conspiracy a bit too much, which probably made it a bit too obvious.

I think what would have helped is if the more of the characters had compelling "cover" personalities, like what Tokizane had (which is why his true personality being revealed really did surprise me). I also think that the relative emptiness and odd elements of the town were played up a bit too much.

I'm not necessarily saying that no hints at all should have been there, but they probably should have been more hidden and subtle than what they were.

On a very related note, Blood-C Episode 11 prompted me to write this. It's a look at anime plot twists in general, but it does focus a lot on what we just witnessed in Blood-C.
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Old 2011-09-25, 01:55   Link #1139
Maxtro
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Heh, it's all fake. Couldn't say I didn't see it coming. And all the 'main cast' characters faked their death. Okay...

Now how did Nene or was it Nono (who cares, whatever) fake getting possessed and going on a killing spree? Saya knew the girl was real...
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Old 2011-09-25, 13:28   Link #1140
Dawnstorm
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think what would have helped is if the more of the characters had compelling "cover" personalities, like what Tokizane had (which is why his true personality being revealed really did surprise me). I also think that the relative emptiness and odd elements of the town were played up a bit too much.
I don't think Tokizane's money grub is his real personality. The look he exchanged with Dad makes little sense to me in this case. I think he joined the teacher, because he, too, wants to awaken Saya (but for his own reasons). Either he knew her before the experiement, or he genuinely got to like her. Somebody had to make that wish with the doggy, and Tokizane is my prime candidate (after that it's Saya, herself).

But that's just plot. I didn't care about Tokizane anymore than about any of the others. It's just so flat. Better cover personalities wouldn't have helped for me. I mean, if I bought them, they might have got me engaged until the ending, but then I'd probably have felt that I wasted all the emotions I invested, and I'd be mad as hell at the show. Unless they did it very well.

To me, whatever you do to strengthen the twist, will come at the expense of character. A twist is supposed to support the story, and - to me - what makes a story interesting is character interaction and motivation. And keeping this particular twist a surprise almost necessarily comes with a trade-off for characters, other than Saya. What we get is a one-woman show, and Saya herself does little else but revert to a fake facade (as one of the twins aptly notes in the latest episode).

Compare this to Madoka, where each character has her own hang-ups, and these lead to revelations. It doesn't matter whether you guess the next plot-twist ahead, because it's the character reaction to the twist that matters. In Blood-C, all you really get is "poor Saya", and that feels pretty empty, since you're not sure how to take "Saya". I mean, you seem to have clean split in the middle with red-eyed Saya being a killing machine, and day-to-day Saya being a lovable klutz, and they don't meet.

The only way I can see this work for me is to abandon the surprise altogether. Or condense what we have so far into about three episodes; that might work, too, depending on what they'd do next.
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