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Old 2011-10-03, 08:32   Link #1281
hyperborealis
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
I don't understand the terms of Fumito's bet with Saya. If Fumito's goal was to make Saya a well-behaved human girl who cares for her friends, he had already won in the first episode! What was the purpose of furthering the experiment?
The question at stake with the bet was whether Fumito could change Saya on a fundamental basis. For that, he needed repetition, a sustained program of operant conditioning. The Saya we see in the first episode is only a stage in an ongoing sequence of brain-washing.

As it turns out, Fumito's project runs afoul of its actors' own reasonable desires to get back to their own lives. As we see in the last two episodes, they eventually break up the drama, so that they can get their payoffs and get out.

Fumito seems to have anticipated this. He tells Kanaka he expected her to betray him. So if you consider how Fumito intended the play to work out, I imagine he planned for it to play out just as it did: the play continues on, until the actors break it up.

In that case, Fumito must have intended the appalling denouement. He anticipated from the first Saya's hour of revelation, the moment when she discovers that all her friends and family members are lies, cutouts for rotten people who despise her. If you want to know why the experiment continued as long as it did, it was precisely to create this shock of pure, unadulterated, and evil sadism.

I will only note, as drily as I can, that the writers' intentions toward the audience are exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Then the whole point of the farce was to gradually break her so she'd be more susceptible to self-serving compulsions. Humans inviting a monster down to their own level of degeneracy? That would be brilliant.
I really like this: you identify an in-story explanation for the charade that works equally well on the meta level of the story's acidic commentary on human nature.

You recall Fumito tells Saya that she herself wanted the compulsion not to kill humans removes as her reward for winning the bet. If your explanation is right, then even Fumito's "revelation" amounts to lying: getting the compulsion off is not so much her purpose as it is his. Probably the viewers wouldn't be able to stand for it, but I like it: there is never any truth, but just one lie leading to another.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Maybe Fumito wanted to change Saya so thoroughly that even after her memories were restored, the Blood-C Saya persona would dominate, and Saya would find it impossible to truly return to her Blood+ self.

As Episode 12 makes abundantly clear, he wasn't quite there yet, and he himself probably suspected that.

He did get her to view Tadayoshi as a father figure though. Saya couldn't shake that off, even with her memories restored. So it wasn't a complete failure for Fumito, but nor was it a complete success of course.
So Saya ends up as an amalgam of selves. I wonder if you could elaborate briefly on how the Blood+ character relates to the person we see in this drama? (I haven't seen the earlier show). Why would it be a goal for Fumito to make it impossible for Saya to return to her Blood+ self?
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Old 2011-10-03, 09:19   Link #1282
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Her Blood+ self?

This isn't the same Saya from Blood+

And there's no indication that this Saya's true character is the same as Saya Otonashi's. Hell, the latter seems far more tame than Blood-C's Saya, excluding that little Vietnam disaster, and much more in line with the fake Saya Kisaragi that Fumito helped create than what we've glimpsed of the true Saya (in Blood-C).
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Old 2011-10-03, 11:38   Link #1283
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
Her Blood+ self?

This isn't the same Saya from Blood+
Then what's with the flashbacks that seem to reference the Saya in earlier Blood properties?

I will admit, though, that the Saya of Episode 12 of Blood-C seemed harsher than Saya Otonashi, yeah.
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Old 2011-10-03, 13:18   Link #1284
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
You recall Fumito tells Saya that she herself wanted the compulsion not to kill humans removes as her reward for winning the bet. If your explanation is right, then even Fumito's "revelation" amounts to lying: getting the compulsion off is not so much her purpose as it is his. Probably the viewers wouldn't be able to stand for it, but I like it: there is never any truth, but just one lie leading to another.
That's sort of what I was alluding to when I said:

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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm
Well, I think we need to separate the experiment from the bet. I think, Fumito's undermining the experiment with the bet, but I'm not sure to what end, or whether it's deliberate at all.

I'm sort wonder whether he ever actually meant to win the bet, or whether he wanted a Saya who can kill humans, but went through all that (for some reason).
My own hypothesis:

- The government already know how to "control" Furukimono, but they have trouble controlling "special ones" such as Saya. From the government's perspective, a brainwashed superwarrior is desirable. That's the point of the experiment.

- Fumito sees a history of Furukomono devouring humans unrestrained --> covenant --> government craving Furukimono power for their own ends. Thinks this won't work.

- No good solution. Projecting hope on Saya, by subverting the experiment (as envisioned by the government) and showing her what humans are like: both from within and from without.

- Fumito does want a Saya who can kill humans; as a sort of balancing factor between human hubris and furukimono voracity. I think Fumito might want a guardian of the covenant. An independent moral agency, opposing both sides.

- He definitely expects to be killed by Saya ("not time for that yet").

I get strong vibes of a fanatic idealist from Fumito. He's not a sadist. His callousness is probably a function of holding overwhelming terror at bay.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then what's with the flashbacks that seem to reference the Saya in earlier Blood properties?
Apparantly, both Blood-C and Blood+ relate to Blood - The Last Vampire, but in different ways. Both shows have a common ancestor, but that's their only relation. (I haven't seen the original film.)
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Old 2011-10-03, 13:22   Link #1285
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then what's with the flashbacks that seem to reference the Saya in earlier Blood properties?

I will admit, though, that the Saya of Episode 12 of Blood-C seemed harsher than Saya Otonashi, yeah.
The flashbacks were from Blood the last vampire, not Blood+. Big difference.
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Old 2011-10-03, 13:35   Link #1286
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The flashbacks were from Blood the last vampire, not Blood+. Big difference.
Ok, so the true Saya personality we see in Episode 12. Is this a "new" Saya, the Saya from Blood The Last Vampire, or what exactly?

What's the best way to refer to her, and to differentiate between her and the Saya of the first 11 episodes of Blood-C?
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Old 2011-10-03, 13:51   Link #1287
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Clearly it's Saya from Blood The Last Vampire movie. Her personality for the first 11 episodes was different simply because she was being drugged.
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Old 2011-10-03, 14:26   Link #1288
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Originally Posted by TheEroKing View Post
Clearly it's Saya from Blood The Last Vampire movie.
Is it? They certainly don't look the same. But if this Saya is any Saya from the other Bloods, it's TLV, not Blood+
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Old 2011-10-03, 18:21   Link #1289
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Originally Posted by TheEroKing View Post
Clearly it's Saya from Blood The Last Vampire movie. Her personality for the first 11 episodes was different simply because she was being drugged.
TLV's Saya never wanted to eat humans. She also is very insistent on having a sharp sword with her at all times.

I think that this Saya is different from all the Saya's.
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Old 2011-10-03, 19:46   Link #1290
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This series is definitely a hit or miss. You either like the gore and/or ending, or you don't.
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Old 2011-10-03, 20:42   Link #1291
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I can't believe the movie is getting financial aid from the Jap. government ROFL.
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Old 2011-10-04, 01:01   Link #1292
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
TLV's Saya never wanted to eat humans. She also is very insistent on having a sharp sword with her at all times.

I think that this Saya is different from all the Saya's.
This Saya never said she wanted to eat humans either. But Saya in TLV also wanted to be able to kill humans. Fumito's the one who teased her with that "if you can kill humans someday, I will give you the version with human flesh". Not enough to conclude that she wants to eat humans - only enough to infer that she does want to be able to kill them when they piss her off for instance.
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Old 2011-10-04, 07:57   Link #1293
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
Is it? They certainly don't look the same. But if this Saya is any Saya from the other Bloods, it's TLV, not Blood+
They don't look the same only because the chara design is different. Her haircut and uniform were exactly the same as in BTLV in the flashback we were shown, so she's meant to be the same Saya imo.

At any rate, she is clearly not Saya from Blood+.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
This Saya never said she wanted to eat humans either. But Saya in TLV also wanted to be able to kill humans. Fumito's the one who teased her with that "if you can kill humans someday, I will give you the version with human flesh". Not enough to conclude that she wants to eat humans - only enough to infer that she does want to be able to kill them when they piss her off for instance.
Considering the kind of nasty personality Fumito has, I wouldn't be surprised if Saya's wish to kill humans is simply an assumption on his part. She has never expressed any desire to kill/eat humans on screen, and I sincerely doubt the two ever had a heart-to-heart talk.

It's common for people to desire what they can never have, and since he's aware Saya is unable to kill humans - he came she must be dying to do it.

Another thing that leads me to believe Saya is different from what Fumito imagine is what the dog said at the end of the series. He claims he has granted Saya's wish to remain herself, if that's true then that means the current Saya is the same as the old Saya. She actually hasn't changed.
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Old 2011-10-04, 09:39   Link #1294
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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
My own hypothesis:

- The government already know how to "control" Furukimono, but they have trouble controlling "special ones" such as Saya. From the government's perspective, a brainwashed superwarrior is desirable. That's the point of the experiment.

- Fumito sees a history of Furukomono devouring humans unrestrained --> covenant --> government craving Furukimono power for their own ends. Thinks this won't work.

- No good solution. Projecting hope on Saya, by subverting the experiment (as envisioned by the government) and showing her what humans are like: both from within and from without.

- Fumito does want a Saya who can kill humans; as a sort of balancing factor between human hubris and furukimono voracity. I think Fumito might want a guardian of the covenant. An independent moral agency, opposing both sides.

- He definitely expects to be killed by Saya ("not time for that yet").

I get strong vibes of a fanatic idealist from Fumito. He's not a sadist. His callousness is probably a function of holding overwhelming terror at bay.
So Fumito is even now and has always been a secret good guy !!!??? And all the carnage and the psychological horror-games have been the dire necessities of accomplishing a happy ending !!!??? OK! That's brilliant! It's also crazy, but so what!!!

I see how you get here. You're looking at the Fumito's actions from ultimate purposes, in terms of how to resolve the conflicting relationship between humans and furukimonos, between the people who want to use furukimonos as weapons and furuimonos who want to eat humans. Fine. That works.

One problem is that the covenant is not a fair deal or a suitable resolution from the human side, given that the deal enshrines a continued if lower consumption of people. As it stands, the covenant amounts to a protection racket, where you pay a little bit regularly, so that they don't take everything all at once. I don't see Saya buying into such a deal.

A better goal is the one Saya Kisaragi articulates, which is to protect everyone, so that no one is eaten and no one is used as a weapon. I think that's what you're getting at anyway, when you think of Fumito envisaging Saya as a "guardian." You are thinking of Saya not as a mob enforcer, but as a policeman, who keeps the peace by preventing either side from predating on the other. So maybe that's Fumito's purpose.

Saya might take this role, although at current moment she seems dedicated to the very particular and personal goal of revenging herself upon Fumito.

What about Fumito? How far does he really fit your hypothesis?

--He unleashes the killer bunny upon his crew of extras, allows his monster guards to machine-gun the extras, and otherwise takes a direct hand in the murder of hundreds of helpless people. The lovely scene where Fumito is fleeing the town in a jeep which is running its windshield wipers to keep off the human blood and a small boy bangs on the window pleading for help only to be ignored would seem expressly designed to put him well past the moral event horizon.

But I get that all this can be contextualized as part of Fumito's master plan, to get Saya to hate him or whatever it is the next step in his plan requires. So, fine.

--He is contemptuous of Saya's own concern for the town's populace: "Why make that face? / Humans don't matter to you. / You aren't like them..." He doesn't--apparently--seem to think of her as a moral agent, but contrarily as someone who should be indifferent to humanity. He suggests that she's returned to what she was before the brainwashing, and that seems to mean for him a predator.

Now, this may all be acting again, but the way he apparently thinks about Saya now doesn't seem to fit your thesis.

--He does his level best to kill Saya, especially when he unleashes Tadayoshi in his full vampire form to fight her. Recall that Tadayoshi had previously been able to capture Saya. So Fumito would have every reasonable expectation that Tadayoshi was going to kill Saya. He doesn't seem to have future plans for her.

Perhaps this is Fumito's desperate gamble that Saya will rise to the occasion, but that is very dicey, don't you think?

Hmm....

After all this, we have come back to your original point about characterization against plot. I can now appreciate on a deeper level your preference for the former. In a story defined by narrative, in the sense of a predetermined conclusion, Fumito can be anyone and do anything, and yet still be working toward that ending. Character is just a mask, or one mask after another. But if character is just a game, that starts to be deeply unsatisfying. This dissatisfaction extends to the narrative as well. Can we honestly speak of narrative structure if anything--including the gruesome deaths of hundreds of ordinary people--can be relativized by a happy ending?

Finally one wants something real, and character is it. So. You were right in the first place.

But I think I was right too. If your thesis is correct, then from the point of view of either narrative or character, Blood-C is merely a very brilliant but finally unsatisfying teleological game. For the reasons you've pointed out earlier, the show doesn't really work in literary terms. The anime only becomes interesting if we consider the game as a reflection on us or on anime or whatever, that is, as a exercise in philosophy.

If I was going to pursue that line of thought, I would probably want to talk about the show's distinctive violence, and the responses to it among the posters here. But I think by this point I've exhausted everyone's patience. Perhaps we can save that discussion for when the movie comes out.
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Old 2011-10-04, 13:22   Link #1295
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So Fumito is even now and has always been a secret good guy !!!??? And all the carnage and the psychological horror-games have been the dire necessities of accomplishing a happy ending !!!???
Not what I'm saying. He's got an ideal, and he's a fanatic clinging to it. He's lost touch with reality, by working way too long with Furukimono. Think of it like this:

The higher-ups want Furukimono as weapons. Someone has to work with them. Either you're a sociopath from the get-go, or that sort of job comes a distinct job. You see on a regular basis what they can do, and it's bothersome. But, you know, your superiors aren't really going to let you out of that job, are they? If you don't control them you succumb to them. But you're the guy working in a lab, and you're aware that accidents will happen. And what then?

You'll have to build up a front of casual calm in the face of (a) sheer terror, and (b) constantly violated compassion. And what does the show tell you about putting on an act and getting used to it?

Next on line is that you have to integrate your behaviour with your morals. If you've been a basically decent guy, so far, what are you going to do? Sacking people is necessary. Number one rationalisation. But necessary for what? What if the experiments spin out of control, and the Furukimono decide to rescind on their deal? Or what about a Furukimono arms race?

So you decide to stop the project, and you find Saya. You go on with a plan. Maybe it's not even to stop the project, though. Maybe Saya's just the wild card? All the people in the project? "Necessary" sacrifices, but not because of Saya, where "necessary" is a rationalisation for having sacced too many already and for going on doing that. Maybe he's also a bit drunk on power?

So a decided, "no" to the "good guy". He's a fanatic, and probably too far gone for atonement.

Quote:
One problem is that the covenant is not a fair deal or a suitable resolution from the human side, given that the deal enshrines a continued if lower consumption of people. As it stands, the covenant amounts to a protection racket, where you pay a little bit regularly, so that they don't take everything all at once. I don't see Saya buying into such a deal.
Of course not. But as long as Saya is free to do what she wants she's a reminder to both sides, that there's no such thing as a free lunch. I mean, as powerful as Saya might be, she won't really make a dent in the Furikimono population, nor will she single-handedly stop wars. But she is a potential threat to both sides - given the proper motivation.

Quote:
A better goal is the one Saya Kisaragi articulates, which is to protect everyone, so that no one is eaten and no one is used as a weapon. I think that's what you're getting at anyway, when you think of Fumito envisaging Saya as a "guardian." You are thinking of Saya not as a mob enforcer, but as a policeman, who keeps the peace by preventing either side from predating on the other. So maybe that's Fumito's purpose.
I think that Fumito thinks that Furukimono eating people is an inevitability. By constantly working with them, they seem more normal to him than they actually are. Thus, how ever much you hate to admit it, it's impossible to protect everyone. But you can throw a wrench into the works on both sides.

Quote:
--He unleashes the killer bunny upon his crew of extras, allows his monster guards to machine-gun the extras, and otherwise takes a direct hand in the murder of hundreds of helpless people. The lovely scene where Fumito is fleeing the town in a jeep which is running its windshield wipers to keep off the human blood and a small boy bangs on the window pleading for help only to be ignored would seem expressly designed to put him well past the moral event horizon.
From the above, I hope it's clear that I'm not talking about any moral horizon, really. Like any good fanatic, he's ready to sack just about anything (including his own life, once things are set into satisfactory motion - "it's not time for that yet").

Quote:
--He is contemptuous of Saya's own concern for the town's populace: "Why make that face? / Humans don't matter to you. / You aren't like them..." He doesn't--apparently--seem to think of her as a moral agent, but contrarily as someone who should be indifferent to humanity. He suggests that she's returned to what she was before the brainwashing, and that seems to mean for him a predator.

Now, this may all be acting again, but the way he apparently thinks about Saya now doesn't seem to fit your thesis.
That's entirely possible. But as long as she predates on both sides, she might still fit his goal as balance.

Quote:
--He does his level best to kill Saya, especially when he unleashes Tadayoshi in his full vampire form to fight her. Recall that Tadayoshi had previously been able to capture Saya. So Fumito would have every reasonable expectation that Tadayoshi was going to kill Saya. He doesn't seem to have future plans for her.
"If you hadn't been tranquilised, I don't think even he could have handled you." Or something like that. I think he was executing Tadayoshi, not trying to get rid of Saya. And I don't think it's a co-incidence that the guy who took care of her is half-human and half-Furukimono. Saya can't pick a side on account of that "loss". See?

Quote:
Perhaps this is Fumito's desperate gamble that Saya will rise to the occasion, but that is very dicey, don't you think?
There's no rising to the occasion. Ultimately, I think, Fumito is a pessimist, and - as destructive as she might turn out to be - an autonomous Saya with no ties to either side - is the best hope the world will get. But to be fully autonomous, she needs to understand the situation, as I said, from without and within. She has now memories of what it's like to be human, whatever she does with it. There's no going back. "You're not like that," includes the implication, "But you remember what it's like to be that."

And what does that mean to Saya? A loss? An embarrassment?

Quote:
But I think I was right too. If your thesis is correct, then from the point of view of either narrative or character, Blood-C is merely a very brilliant but finally unsatisfying teleological game. For the reasons you've pointed out earlier, the show doesn't really work in literary terms. The anime only becomes interesting if we consider the game as a reflection on us or on anime or whatever, that is, as a exercise in philosophy.

If I was going to pursue that line of thought, I would probably want to talk about the show's distinctive violence, and the responses to it among the posters here. But I think by this point I've exhausted everyone's patience. Perhaps we can save that discussion for when the movie comes out.
I definitely agree with you here. As to the movie, I'm not actually sure I'll watch that yet. I might read spoilers and be done with it. Time will tell.
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Old 2011-10-05, 00:34   Link #1296
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Here's a shocker that seriously makes me question the sanity of the Japanese government.

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Three animated film productions applied for financial assistance from the Japanese government’s Agency for Cultural Affairs’ 2011 Support Program for International Co-Production. Two of the films, Tezuka Pro’s Gusukobudori no Denki and Production I.G’s Blood-C were selected to recieve financial support. Each film will recieve 50 million yen (about $650,000 USD).
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Old 2011-10-05, 00:51   Link #1297
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Funds too small Enzo?
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Old 2011-10-05, 00:57   Link #1298
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Here's a shocker that seriously makes me question the sanity of the Japanese government.
International.

Obviously, the Japanese government thinks something filled with gore like Blood C will go over well with international audiences. I'm not sure they're wrong. It certainly fits the stereotype of western audiences. I mean, I thought it was stupid, and bad, and yet I had a huge grin on my face watching this thing. I imagine the movie will be full of hacking and slashing. I'm sure it has potential to be a modest success internationally. I'll be watching it, for sure, if only to see if they can top the bunny-blender scene. The series is already a strong shoe-in for that disc you plop in your player when your buddies come over and you pull out some beers and laugh your ass off at how stupid it is.
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Old 2011-10-05, 02:18   Link #1299
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Ah yes, reinforce every negative stereotype the ignorant majority has about anime. There's some good long-term planning right there.
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Old 2011-10-05, 03:57   Link #1300
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Another thing that leads me to believe Saya is different from what Fumito imagine is what the dog said at the end of the series. He claims he has granted Saya's wish to remain herself, if that's true then that means the current Saya is the same as the old Saya. She actually hasn't changed.
Well, when you combine that with what Class rep said when he was dying, the "singing Saya" personality wasn't created out of nothing. It was also a part of the real Saya, just brought to the forefront through the brainwashing.

So perhaps the way Saya acts is now changed, but she didn't change "fundamentally" as Fumito was hoping to.
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