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Old 2011-10-05, 04:44   Link #1301
Forsaken_Infinity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Ah yes, reinforce every negative stereotype the ignorant majority has about anime. There's some good long-term planning right there.
You talk as though TLV wasn't highly pandered by mainstream western critics. Also, the movie's not out yet, so don't be pretentious enough to assume it'd be horrible please. There are already enough people that disagree with you on that this show itself was bad so you are certainly going overboard when you rate stuff that's nowhere near even done yet.
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Old 2011-10-05, 08:13   Link #1302
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
You talk as though TLV wasn't highly pandered by mainstream western critics. Also, the movie's not out yet, so don't be pretentious enough to assume it'd be horrible please. There are already enough people that disagree with you on that this show itself was bad so you are certainly going overboard when you rate stuff that's nowhere near even done yet.
I don't think his statement had anything to do with his opinion of the quality of the show.

The fact is "gore and schoolgirls" ARE the main negative stereotypes of anime. That's not a matter of opinion, and the entire Blood series plays into those stereotypes.

Actually more likely a good argument could be made that TLV (and Ninja Scroll) was one of the primary reasons those stereotypes were created in the first place.
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Old 2011-10-05, 10:03   Link #1303
hyperborealis
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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
[snip]He's got an ideal, and he's a fanatic clinging to it. He's lost touch with reality, by working way too long with Furukimono. [snip]

So a decided, "no" to the "good guy". He's a fanatic, and probably too far gone for atonement.
Thanks for the detailed clarification.

I said that Fumito was a "good guy" since, in your hypothesis, his goal is to enable Saya to broker the best possible outcome in the conflict between the humans and furukimonos. He wears the retrospective halo of the "good" ending he is working toward. That is not to say he is in fact good. Or even that the end he envisages is good either.

I very much appreciated your characterization of Fumito, especially your tale of moral compromises and corruption by association with monsters. Such a story would have been in its way just as horrifying as Saya's, had the writers chosen to tell it. I would have liked to have seen that!

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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
But as long as Saya is free to do what she wants she's a reminder to both sides, that there's no such thing as a free lunch. I mean, as powerful as Saya might be, she won't really make a dent in the Furikimono population, nor will she single-handedly stop wars. But she is a potential threat to both sides - given the proper motivation.
"Free lunch"

Magic and screenwriters' license make anything possible.

I would like to know more about just how Fumito controlled the furukimono using Saya's blood. We get two references: the first to the talismans the actors wear to protect themselves, and the second to the mirror that Fumito breaks to summon the Bunny Monster. Both of these devices seem clearly magical. In that case I wonder if Fumito is not a magician or a sorcerer? This would certainly fit with the show's hallmark blending of the human and the magical worlds, as evidenced by Saya herself, by Tadayoshi, and almost certainly the dog.

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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
"If you hadn't been tranquilised, I don't think even he could have handled you." Or something like that. I think he was executing Tadayoshi, not trying to get rid of Saya. And I don't think it's a co-incidence that the guy who took care of her is half-human and half-Furukimono. Saya can't pick a side on account of that "loss". See?
Yes, I think you're right. And nice catch, too. In fact it's especially nice just since Saya is not actually related to Tadayoshi. Her choice of action will be her choice, just as she chooses in some sense for Tadayoshi to be her father.

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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
There's no rising to the occasion. Ultimately, I think, Fumito is a pessimist, and - as destructive as she might turn out to be - an autonomous Saya with no ties to either side - is the best hope the world will get. But to be fully autonomous, she needs to understand the situation, as I said, from without and within. She has now memories of what it's like to be human, whatever she does with it. There's no going back. "You're not like that," includes the implication, "But you remember what it's like to be that."

And what does that mean to Saya? A loss? An embarrassment?
Neither, really. The moments where Saya cradles the dying Tadayoshi and acknowledges him as her father, or when she tears remembering her friends, prove that on an emotional level Saya retains the moral values bound up in the world Fumito has indoctrinated her into. I don't believe Saya can perceive that as a loss, even though on a meta level it arises from a clear infringement upon her autonomy.

The story seems to suggest that these values are open to humans and furukimono alike: they are not human but universal. So the division in kind between human and furukimono does not really exist. There are different axes at play: power, tastes, physical shape, etc. But these unite humans and furukimonos along a spectrum, and do not separate them.

That is a really excellent description of where Saya's experience leaves her, by the way.
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Old 2011-10-05, 12:18   Link #1304
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
I don't think his statement had anything to do with his opinion of the quality of the show.

The fact is "gore and schoolgirls" ARE the main negative stereotypes of anime. That's not a matter of opinion, and the entire Blood series plays into those stereotypes.
Thank you - I wasn't going to bother...
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Old 2011-10-05, 13:12   Link #1305
Dawnstorm
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
I said that Fumito was a "good guy" since, in your hypothesis, his goal is to enable Saya to broker the best possible outcome in the conflict between the humans and furukimonos. He wears the retrospective halo of the "good" ending he is working toward. That is not to say he is in fact good. Or even that the end he envisages is good either.
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood.

Quote:
I very much appreciated your characterization of Fumito, especially your tale of moral compromises and corruption by association with monsters. Such a story would have been in its way just as horrifying as Saya's, had the writers chosen to tell it. I would have liked to have seen that!
That wouldbe a very interesting story, wouldn't it? But, of course, it can only be true if we make certain assumptions:

a) Fumito wasn't a sociopath when he took the job. (Estimate: Possible to Likely)
b) Fumito is human. (Estimate: very, very likely - although Fumito being a Furukimono has certain intriguing points, too; mimic enough to fool his superiors? controlled himself, and using Saya to break free?)

Quote:
"Free lunch"
Heh, pun unintentional.

Quote:
I would like to know more about just how Fumito controlled the furukimono using Saya's blood. We get two references: the first to the talismans the actors wear to protect themselves, and the second to the mirror that Fumito breaks to summon the Bunny Monster. Both of these devices seem clearly magical. In that case I wonder if Fumito is not a magician or a sorcerer? This would certainly fit with the show's hallmark blending of the human and the magical worlds, as evidenced by Saya herself, by Tadayoshi, and almost certainly the dog.
And yet, there's that lab-environment, experiments, etc. That would be interesting. To me, especially in its practical implications: can they make these talismans, or do they have a limited stock? Questions like these.

Quote:
Neither, really. The moments where Saya cradles the dying Tadayoshi and acknowledges him as her father, or when she tears remembering her friends, prove that on an emotional level Saya retains the moral values bound up in the world Fumito has indoctrinated her into. I don't believe Saya can perceive that as a loss, even though on a meta level it arises from a clear infringement upon her autonomy.

...
Makes sense to me.
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Old 2011-10-05, 14:17   Link #1306
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Ah yes, reinforce every negative stereotype the ignorant majority has about anime. There's some good long-term planning right there.
Eh. At least it's not sexualized little girls. Or some brand new stereotype they could hype up. (though I'm a bit at a loss as to what new thing they could inflict on unsuspecting audiences.)
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Old 2011-10-05, 14:39   Link #1307
creb
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
(though I'm a bit at a loss as to what new thing they could inflict on unsuspecting audiences.)
I'm still waiting for The Twelve Kingdoms to be rewritten in a modern setting, and all dialog redone as Japanese rap.
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Old 2011-10-06, 22:03   Link #1308
windziko
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Not sure if it has been speculated here yet, but does anyone besides me think that Itsuki may still be alive and might even show up in the upcoming Blood-C movie?

The thing is, everyone from the main cast has died at least once before the whole experiment was revealed to Saya, except for Fumito, Tsutsutori, and Itsuki. (Since Fumito was behind all the attacks from the furukimono, I'll exclude him.)

Then when episode 12 happens, Tokizane is the first to die permanently when it is revealed that Fumito had given him a fake talisman after his first death when he defected to Tsutsutori's group. The same case with the twins, Nono and Nene.

Then Tsutsutori dies for the first time, but let's assumed that it is a permanent death since Fumito surmised that she would defect from the very beginning, thus she had a fake talisman to begin with.

As for Yuuka, she died once and is still sided with Fumito, but it wasn't revealed whether her current (2nd) talisman is real or fake since she is the only person from the main cast to survive the finale aside from Fumito. Not as important right now, but it might be crucial in the upcoming movie.

Finally, there's Itsuki, who has yet to die before episode 12. He hasn't defected to Tsutsutori's group, but his first death was from trying to protect Saya from bullets. However, assuming that he is still holding on to the same talisman he had from the beginning as part of the main cast, there isn't any proof on whether his current talisman was real or fake, and thus, whether he still has a chance of being alive.

...Unless I missed a part where they said the talisman only works on attacks from furukimono, then everything I speculated is entirely wrong. Did they ever mention if this part is a known fact? (There's way too many pages for me to skim through. )
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Old 2011-10-07, 01:46   Link #1309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windziko View Post
...Unless I missed a part where they said the talisman only works on attacks from furukimono, then everything I speculated is entirely wrong. Did they ever mention if this part is a known fact? (There's way too many pages for me to skim through. )
They didn't mention it, but they'd showed it. The talismen had the same mark as that mirror like thing Fumito broke to unleash all hell...

Chances are very good the talismans had some of Saya's blood in it and were a variant on whatever he was using to control them. I.e. they aren't magic that'll protect you from bullets. The other deaths were all staged fakes.
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Old 2011-10-07, 06:20   Link #1310
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
They didn't mention it, but they'd showed it. The talismen had the same mark as that mirror like thing Fumito broke to unleash all hell...

Chances are very good the talismans had some of Saya's blood in it and were a variant on whatever he was using to control them. I.e. they aren't magic that'll protect you from bullets. The other deaths were all staged fakes.
I see...almost forgot about that mirror bit. At least now I know that the mirror is somewhat connected to the talismans. Perhaps the talismans are rendered useless as soon as Fumito broke that mirror? Sorry, I'm still a little confused about how the talismans work exactly...but thanks for a better clarification.
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Old 2011-10-11, 09:43   Link #1311
patnam
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in this TV series, the bad guy (Fumito) wins... in movie version, Saya sure get her revenge very badly...

however, hope Saya would need some companion or allies to be with, because there sure more furukimono(s) to deal with in upcoming movie... (Tokyo Massacre)
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Old 2011-10-12, 21:45   Link #1312
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I'm quite interested this show though I still haven't seen it yet. As from preview all I can say is seinen answer to Yami no Matsuei, only better.
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Old 2011-10-30, 12:50   Link #1313
hyperborealis
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Compare & Contrast with Blood+. All in spoilers for those who have not seen the latter.

Spoiler for contains Blood+ material:

Last edited by hyperborealis; 2011-10-30 at 14:18.
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Old 2011-10-30, 14:17   Link #1314
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That's a very interesting analysis.

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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
I find this a little unsettling. Shouldn't there be reality-testing for our ideals and values? Or is it really the case that we can never get outside those ideals and values anyway, that there is no "outside ourselves" to stand on, and that all we have then is a fictive truth?
Well, Blood+ was a show with humanist ideals; Blood-C was more of a naturalist show (especially behaviourism seems relevant). The former makes a moral point, but the latter doesn't - at least not on the same level. I can't see Blood-C taking a moral stand, other than presenting you with a situation that undermines the centrality of humanist values, such as choice.

One problem we have is the story of Blood-C is not yet finished, and depending on how the film plays out, things might yet change. But one thing right now: "...we can never get outside those ideals..." This "never", I think, is not warranted. Morals - to me - are a sort of addiction to a brain-state constellation (metaphorically, not literally). And you can kick an addiction; but it's not easy. A choice and its implementation aren't the same thing: you can choose to change, but you need to re-affirm that choice every step along the way, and the road is long enough for your goals to change with yourself. You're an organism who will never fully understand itself, because the very act of understanding changes you.

Saya's situation is extreme: everything has been drawn out from under her, so what else does she have to fall back on but habit?`Note that this a matter not of "What am I going to do now?" but a matter of "What am I going to want to do now?" The Saya of that moment literally has little else to sustain her but habit.

Ultimately, Saya won't be able to ignore her past feelings. After all, a body collects traces of what it's been going through, and - whether or not you think you have a soul - you know you have a body.

So I'd say that we're not at a comparable point in the story, between the two series. You'll have to await the outcome of the film for finishing this off.
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Old 2011-10-30, 18:40   Link #1315
hyperborealis
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Dawnstorm, thanks.

A clarification: we can't get outside of some frame of reference, some value structure. Even if we change ourselves in the way you describe, we can only do so from some point of view.

I agree that Blood-C calls into question "the centrality of humanist values," as you put it. If Saya's domestic feelings and commitments are simply constructs of Fumito's making, then her moral perspective is simply the mask of a superior power. This is Nietzsche's critique of morality; Blood-C echoes it.

But the behaviorism you specify really pertains only to Fumito's perspective. Saya by contrast has really experienced friends and father: the fact that they were in fact neither is immaterial to the reality of her subjective experience. If she holds on to her experiences out of habit, if she knows intellectually they are lies, they are nonetheless still subjectively real to her.

If Blood-C is at a midpoint, to what does it compare in Blood+?
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-10-31, 13:59   Link #1316
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I pretty much agree with you in your last post.

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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
If Blood-C is at a midpoint, to what does it compare in Blood+?
I wondered about that, too, but it's too hard to compare, partly because of the very different approach to characterisation and plot, and partly because I don't remember Blood+ too well.
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Old 2011-11-07, 07:02   Link #1317
Masuzu
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Just finished this awhile ago, damn, I heard there would be a movie? Looking forward to it.

I knew the cafe dude was a bad-ass from the start, I just knew it.
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Old 2011-11-08, 20:54   Link #1318
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This show was so meaningless for me.
After her school mates "died" I thought that something would happen ... I don't know what but not this nonsense of an end.

Really, for me this show is one of the worst I have ever seen. Oh but don't worry my "worst"-list is not short




This is just my humble opinion.
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Old 2011-11-25, 09:48   Link #1319
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Old 2011-11-25, 09:49   Link #1320
Masuzu
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She gets her eye back? Nice.
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