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Old 2011-09-03, 00:12   Link #1081
Muan
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Okay, I was looking at the gg subs version, i just watched the nutbladder version 2 and it didn't clear things up much (I don't know what I was expecting from nutbladder) but I think I get it. Ringo is saying that Sho and Kanba pretend be dedicated to their family life because it is conducive to their mutual designs on Himari. I think that's what she said and I can understand why that would piss Sho off the way it did. Then again, when Ringo talks about looking at Himari its not clear what she is saying. Is she telling Sho to reflect on his feelings for Himari or is she saying look at how Himari acts, because she does act rather desperately to sort of keep them together as a family. I - I don't know. I guess when Shoma starts masturbating furiously while sniffing a lock of Himari's hair and moaning her name, that'll answer our questions.
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Old 2011-09-03, 00:26   Link #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower View Post
But to be fair I think I am personally a little "sensitive" to the "young women beating up on/abusing young men doubling as doormats" thing - I already disliked it before watching the series. So I don't know if you could really use my individual example as indicative of any "bigger trend" or what not. Many people seem to be enjoying the portrayal of Ringo as accurate (as Archong Wing mentioned above) and even engaging, and are not "disturbed" by the abusive scenes to the degree I was.
A trend I've noticed on the last few pages is that the unbalancing of the plot also extends to the audience itself. Ringo hit too close to home when she threw Shou's obsession with the diary back in his face. Yes, she's a crazy psycho....and he's been helping her. He claims to hold the higher moral ground but in reality he's cut from a similar mold. She wants to restore her family. So does he. She's holding on to a dead family member. So is he. She's willing to do crazy things to get what she wants. He's been doing the same.

Yes, she's a crazy stalker and definitely needs a wake up call. Perhaps this episode will finally do just that. However I think that the reason why we've seen so much focus on Ringo is that she has been a central character to the story. Through Ringo we've seen how other characters tie to each other. Through Ringo we've seen the parallels and differences between characters and circumstances. We've seen symbolism after symbolism. We've learned that the diary isn't just a crazy girl's interpretation, but something intrinsic to the story. It's all connected, even if it seems like Ringo is overwhelming everything else.

I don't feel the pacing is too slow, or that things are unbalanced. I think people are maybe too used to the now standard single cour series that air these days compared to the two cours that used to air a few years ago. Two cours usually have the first half lay the groundwork while the second half pulls those elements together into a finale. A good example of this is Steins:Gate. The first half? Mostly silly antics and character building. The second? Dealing with the consequences of those antics and how those characters are affected. Not all two cours do a good job of this (Sunrise in particular is famous for tons of pointless episodes and then packing the last few into a garbled mess), but that's usually how they play out. One cours don't often have this luxury but at least the initial few episodes after the first are the calm before the storm.

Anyway, with the diary now ripped in half, Ringo's pretty much unable to continue her stalker antics anyway, and even if she wanted to her window of opportunity is closed with Yuri clinging to Tabuki so much. I suspect we're going to see the focus shift back to the siblings while more hints are fed about who the mysterious antagonist is.
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Old 2011-09-03, 00:33   Link #1083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
snip*
Agreed. I made that post in quite a bad taste but you know how it goes, you just feel like doing it sometimes. I'd still say that calling out on people calling out on people calling out on something isn't any more right than calling out on anything at all - and there's nothing wrong with people calling out on people calling out on something. It's just how it is with most, if not all discussions - if you feel compelled to participate for whatever reason, including not having any reason - go do it, else just ignore it.

@Muan: My understanding of the scene is that Ringo basically accused Sho of acting as though he genuinely loved Himari as his sister in order to project his image of a happy
family to acquiesce himself more than anything else. The bit where she mentioned that she could tell just by looking at Himari was to imply that Himari is visibly strained from having to put up with the act. Whether Ringo was just accusing Sho of not being as crazy about his love for Himari as her love for her family or just making a passing remark about how fake she perceives their filial love - especially Shoma's part in it - is up for debate. I'd say it's a mix of both.

I have had an unsettling feeling about Shoma since the go (I can't quite put a finger on it but the vibes I got from him in the first episode were similar to latent Yangire or Yandere) and he certainly reacted to Ringo's provocation without much thought. But Ringo was definitely using that as her comeback and she isn't in any position to call others out. We'll see how it unfolds. If I really had to say it though, I always found Sho creepier than Kanba. We already know that Kanba's doing something shady but we know the reason for it while there is just that unsettling feeling about Sho and him putting up with Ringo's antics was pretty unsettling too, regardless of his good nature or not.

@Solace: Yeah, you hit the crux on your post alright. Too bad you made it after I was already writing mine ._.
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Old 2011-09-03, 00:35   Link #1084
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A fair enough assessment Solace, and I would not be surprised if this ep did indeed have an element to turn Ringo's behavior around. Still ... for me the "nail in the coffin" was last ep.

Again though - all I have done is removed it from my "currently watching" series. I will probably pick it up later on and finish it.
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Old 2011-09-03, 00:53   Link #1085
Sol Falling
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Ringo in a negligee, alone, at night, outside in the rain. The perfect picture of vulnerability.

Episodes 7 and 8 have made me care about Ringo. The way her hopes and future have come down crashing, with first Tabuki's marriage, and now her father's, Ringo's plight has felt more immediate than Shou and Kanba's mission, which has no apparent deadline. The fact is, deep down Ringo is not a bad girl; she's just desperate. More than that, she's desperate over things beyond her control. As much as Ringo claims to be fighting for "Destiny", it almost seems like fate itself is working against her. Personally, I can still very easily sympathize with her and find her situation unfortunate.

I disagree with the calls that Ringo is "crazy". We in fact know that Momoka's notebook is not anything ordinary, so the truth is that there should be something, no matter how small, extraordinary enough about it that it would lead Ringo, who was all alone, to bet her entire existence upon it. Now, Ringo's lifeline has been fairly destroyed and violated, so it would make sense that she will realize she is all alone in the world. Prior to this point, however, I think it can be easily said that, to be able to continue believing in her own happiness--there was little else Ringo could have done.

On the general engagement and pacing of Penguindrum. For my tastes, there have been 2 out of 8 episodes which could be called repetitive, unengaging or uninteresting--episodes 4 and 6--and those indeed featured a significant focus on Ringo. However, in herself I do not feel that there is anything weak or unsympathizable about her character. For a show this deliberately constructed, there is no such thing as a 'directorial crush', but rather 'directorial intent', the execution of which it is indeed possible to blunder occasionally. However, Ringo obviously is important, and if you are wondering how, you just have to wait for the show to show it to you; because otherwise, on a narrative level--there have been no particular indications as to how Himari or Kanba or Shou are "important" either.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:10   Link #1086
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So @Forsaken_Infinity are you saying that Shouma is like the male version of Ringo but is keeping his true nature hidden for the sake of his family but it leaks from time to time?

Ringo says she's doing this all for her family but deep down she really wanted to take over Mommo's place, Mommo was the star, the person everyone looked up to it didn't matter that Ringo was there if it wasn't "Mommo" it wouldn't work.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:13   Link #1087
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
A trend I've noticed on the last few pages is that the unbalancing of the plot also extends to the audience itself. Ringo hit too close to home when she threw Shou's obsession with the diary back in his face. Yes, she's a crazy psycho....and he's been helping her. He claims to hold the higher moral ground but in reality he's cut from a similar mold. She wants to restore her family. So does he. She's holding on to a dead family member. So is he. She's willing to do crazy things to get what she wants. He's been doing the same.
Not really. You can't compare them because Sho clearly shows distaste for certain means of achieving an end. He's willing to put himself through certain things but not at the expense of others, for whatever reasons. Maybe is similar to a Suzaku from Code Geass and did something bad in the past that caused him to gain this perspective but we'll have to wait to see. He does hold a higher moral ground in that respect to her and I think that's fairly obvious.

Where she was actually attacking him was that his family is broken and they avoid facing that problem but hid behind a facade of normalcy and she can see that. What those problems are we don't really know. It might be a dead family member but we honestly don't even know if his parents are dead or not.

Quote:
Yes, she's a crazy stalker and definitely needs a wake up call. Perhaps this episode will finally do just that. However I think that the reason why we've seen so much focus on Ringo is that she has been a central character to the story. Through Ringo we've seen how other characters tie to each other. Through Ringo we've seen the parallels and differences between characters and circumstances. We've seen symbolism after symbolism. We've learned that the diary isn't just a crazy girl's interpretation, but something intrinsic to the story. It's all connected, even if it seems like Ringo is overwhelming everything else.
I think we haven't really seen much of character ties except perhaps how they tie to Ringo. Momoka, Tabuki, Yuri, and Sho. The emphasis has been on their connection to her and I don't necessarily think its been that enlightening so far on comparing characters. You can certainly drawn some comparisons but any show will be able to do that.

We barely have a clue to what the diary's purpose is or its connection to anything so far. It's hard for me to draw from that that's it intrinsic value to the story as of yet. It could still be a red herring. The diary only unequivocal value so far in how much it is shown to influence Ringo's actions and how she uses it to justify the lengths she goes to make "fate" happen. Either I'm not in the crowd that has brought into the diary being anything more than a diary which a bunch of people want for unspecified reasons. They might not even know the reasons themselves. I do think however Ringo's past is important but if I had to lay down a bet, the nonsense written in their is probably of no to little importance. It hasn't predicted anything concrete yet unless we string together happenstance and our wanting to find something/anything to make it work.

Quote:
I don't feel the pacing is too slow, or that things are unbalanced. I think people are maybe too used to the now standard single cour series that air these days compared to the two cours that used to air a few years ago. Two cours usually have the first half lay the groundwork while the second half pulls those elements together into a finale. A good example of this is Steins:Gate. The first half? Mostly silly antics and character building. The second? Dealing with the consequences of those antics and how those characters are affected. Not all two cours do a good job of this (Sunrise in particular is famous for tons of pointless episodes and then packing the last few into a garbled mess), but that's usually how they play out. One cours don't often have this luxury but at least the initial few episodes after the first are the calm before the storm.
I think we've lacked character building outside of Ringo and Sho so far and that what troubles me. We certainly could have included her friends at the very least. Where did those two disappear to? What about the guys who face we haven't seen? Certainly we can get some more of him right? Ringo and Himari are supposedly friends but have had so little screen time together its hard for me to feel it's believable.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:15   Link #1088
Sol Falling
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On Shouma:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
A trend I've noticed on the last few pages is that the unbalancing of the plot also extends to the audience itself. Ringo hit too close to home when she threw Shou's obsession with the diary back in his face. Yes, she's a crazy psycho....and he's been helping her. He claims to hold the higher moral ground but in reality he's cut from a similar mold. She wants to restore her family. So does he. She's holding on to a dead family member. So is he. She's willing to do crazy things to get what she wants. He's been doing the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
I have had an unsettling feeling about Shoma since the go (I can't quite put a finger on it but the vibes I got from him in the first episode were similar to latent Yangire or Yandere) and he certainly reacted to Ringo's provocation without much thought. But Ringo was definitely using that as her comeback and she isn't in any position to call others out. We'll see how it unfolds. If I really had to say it though, I always found Sho creepier than Kanba. We already know that Kanba's doing something shady but we know the reason for it while there is just that unsettling feeling about Sho and him putting up with Ringo's antics was pretty unsettling too, regardless of his good nature or not.
I think you guys have got it somewhat flipped around. Ringo isn't calling Shouma out for putting up with her. Rather, I think she's talking about his wishy-washyness and unwillingness to fully devote himself to his mission. Essentially, from Ringo's point of view, there is no way for her or Shouma to obtain what they want without getting their hands dirty; but Shouma is still clinging to the illusion that he and Himari can live as innocent people, like a good family, without acknowledging that the world is ugly and that his wish requires a cost.

Shouma looks to me to be exactly what he seems to be. I don't think he's anything near a Yandere. He's just an innocent guy caught in over his head, but in the end that innocence may be something worth protecting.

edit:

Or, as Slick_rick said, the "covering up of the Takakura sibling's parents" issue could be a factor too.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:23   Link #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I think you guys have got it somewhat flipped around. Ringo isn't calling Shouma out for putting up with her. Rather, I think she's talking about his wishy-washyness and unwillingness to fully devote himself to his mission. Essentially, from Ringo's point of view, there is no way for her or Shouma to obtain what they want without getting their hands dirty; but Shouma is still clinging to the illusion that he and Himari can live as innocent people, like a good family, without acknowledging that the world is ugly and that his wish requires a cost.

Shouma looks to me to be exactly what he seems to be. I don't think he's anything near a Yandere. He's just an innocent guy caught in over his head, but in the end that innocence may be something worth protecting.

edit:

Or, as Slick_rick said, the "covering up of the Takakura sibling's parents" issue could be a factor too.
I never said Ringo called him out for putting up with her. The part about him following her being unsettling was my take on it. I said only this about what Ringo said to Sho and why she did so in my opinion:
Quote:
My understanding of the scene is that Ringo basically accused Sho of acting as though he genuinely loved Himari as his sister in order to project his image of a happy
family to acquiesce himself more than anything else. The bit where she mentioned that she could tell just by looking at Himari was to imply that Himari is visibly strained from having to put up with the act. Whether Ringo was just accusing Sho of not being as crazy about his love for Himari as her love for her family or just making a passing remark about how fake she perceives their filial love - especially Shoma's part in it - is up for debate. I'd say it's a mix of both.
I don't know if Shoma is exactly what he looks like but I find him unsettling and I only got vibes similar to yangire or yandere - that he has something really crazy about him - I don't think he is one, at least not yet.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:24   Link #1090
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I don't feel the pacing is too slow, or that things are unbalanced. I think people are maybe too used to the now standard single cour series that air these days compared to the two cours that used to air a few years ago. Two cours usually have the first half lay the groundwork while the second half pulls those elements together into a finale. A good example of this is Steins:Gate. The first half? Mostly silly antics and character building. The second? Dealing with the consequences of those antics and how those characters are affected. Not all two cours do a good job of this (Sunrise in particular is famous for tons of pointless episodes and then packing the last few into a garbled mess), but that's usually how they play out. One cours don't often have this luxury but at least the initial few episodes after the first are the calm before the storm.
I've seen more than my fare share of 2 cour shows and while yes, a lot like to do this whole shtick where they bring everything together in the second cour, I don't necessarily think this is implicitly a good model overall for storytelling.

Yes Steins;Gate used this model, and while they did it quite effectively, it only worked well because the first half managed to bring together really solid character interactions and development to build off for later, while still feeding plot all the way throughout. In Penguindrum, the only character who has been REALLY developed is Ringo (And yes we still have more episodes this first cour, so there's still a bit of time to give more to other characters). I find this problematic because due to her over exposure, the water well on her character has been drawn to the very last drop and was starting to feel very dry (Thank god they decided to move the character progression this episode or I would've exploded). This being the case, it's remarkable how much we know Ringo inside and out, and how little we know the other characters, particularly the supposed main family in this show.

The show has managed to be more or less entertaining overall, but the magic of the start of this show has been slowly degenerating, losing its appeal in rue of a missing complete framework for the show. Fabulous character interactions and visuals start to get repetitive when new things aren't being explored, or explored enough.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:36   Link #1091
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Agreed. I made that post in quite a bad taste but you know how it goes, you just feel like doing it sometimes. I'd still say that calling out on people calling out on people calling out on something isn't any more right than calling out on anything at all - and there's nothing wrong with people calling out on people calling out on something. It's just how it is with most, if not all discussions - if you feel compelled to participate for whatever reason, including not having any reason - go do it, else just ignore it.
Please don't think that I am passing any kind of judgement. I don't think there's any right or wrong in these cases, only more effective and less effective. Hell, I like this anime more than many here. I was just really trying to sort good arguments that would help the skeptical more and I know others that aren't gonna really help, having been on all parts of the spectrum when it comes to reacting to an anime.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:47   Link #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
A trend I've noticed on the last few pages is that the unbalancing of the plot also extends to the audience itself. Ringo hit too close to home when she threw Shou's obsession with the diary back in his face. Yes, she's a crazy psycho....and he's been helping her. He claims to hold the higher moral ground but in reality he's cut from a similar mold. She wants to restore her family. So does he. She's holding on to a dead family member. So is he. She's willing to do crazy things to get what she wants. He's been doing the same.
There are similarities between the two of them, definitely. I mentioned that myself a week or two ago on this thread, IIRC

However, you're going too far in drawing moral equivalency between the two of them, imo. There are some lines that Ringo is all-too-willing to cross, but Shou clearly isn't. Episode 8 in particular made that crystal clear. So it shouldn't be hard to see how a viewer could like Shou, but dislike Ringo. One is fully willing to rape Tabuki, the other is totally against such a literal rape happening.


Quote:

Yes, she's a crazy stalker and definitely needs a wake up call. Perhaps this episode will finally do just that. However I think that the reason why we've seen so much focus on Ringo is that she has been a central character to the story. Through Ringo we've seen how other characters tie to each other. Through Ringo we've seen the parallels and differences between characters and circumstances. We've seen symbolism after symbolism. We've learned that the diary isn't just a crazy girl's interpretation, but something intrinsic to the story.
I'm not convinced of this any more. I was at one point, but not now. I wouldn't be shocked if the diary ends up being a total red herring.

I'll get into this more when I reply to Sol. It's a big part of the reason why I differ with you and Sol at this point.


Quote:
It's all connected, even if it seems like Ringo is overwhelming everything else.
It's not that Ringo, the character, is overwhelming everything else.

It's that Ringo's mission is overwhelming everything else. For at least half of this anime to date, we have been entirely caught up in Ringo's mission to win over Tabuki.

It's simply getting old, to be frank. It's not going anywhere. It's been painfully obvious since the Tabuki/Yuri marriage announcement that Ringo is fighting for a hopeless cause barring a major game-changing event.

I almost feel like MPD is making me watch weekly 20-minute installments of Wile E. Coyote trying to kill the Roadrunner, with me knowing full well how it's going to resolve itself.

Ringo's character herself is not necessarily a problem. Indeed, one of this anime's coolest moments was one in which Ringo shined. It was the moment when she confronted the Penguin Queen in epic fashion. I find it pretty telling that Ringo's finest moment, by far, was when she wasn't actively trying to win over Tabuki.


Quote:

I don't feel the pacing is too slow, or that things are unbalanced.
It might not be too slow or unbalanced yet. One more episode like these last few, though, and it will be, imo.


Quote:
I think people are maybe too used to the now standard single cour series that air these days compared to the two cours that used to air a few years ago. Two cours usually have the first half lay the groundwork while the second half pulls those elements together into a finale. A good example of this is Steins:Gate. The first half? Mostly silly antics and character building.
Never in Steins;Gate did we languish around a pointless conflict for this long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

Episodes 7 and 8 have made me care about Ringo. The way her hopes and future have come down crashing, with first Tabuki's marriage, and now her father's, Ringo's plight has felt more immediate than Shou and Kanba's mission, which has no apparent deadline. The fact is, deep down Ringo is not a bad girl; she's just desperate. More than that, she's desperate over things beyond her control. As much as Ringo claims to be fighting for "Destiny", it almost seems like fate itself is working against her. Personally, I can still very easily sympathize with her and find her situation unfortunate.
There's some truth to what you've wrote here. I do think that Ringo is a more pitiable character than she's getting credit for. But the thing is that it won't be easy for most viewers to care about her until Ringo herself is forced to face her sad circumstances. At that point, the true tragedy of Ringo's horrible situation will indeed come crashing down, imo. As long as she's in total delusion mode, though, we're not getting that.

This is why I think that Ringo has the potential to be a compelling tragic character if she's allowed to come crashing down soon. Now's the moment for Ikuhara to strike. The iron is hot now. If he waits much longer, it'll be too late.

Quote:
I disagree with the calls that Ringo is "crazy". We in fact know that Momoka's notebook is not anything ordinary,
Momoka's notebook is clearly not a book of destiny. For awhile, it was possibly so. In the skunk episode, for example, the predictions made in the diary were kind of coming true. Since then, though, they haven't been.

Part of the reason why I hold Ringo to be completely crazy at this point is that there's no logical basis whatsoever for her to view Momoka's notebook as a book of destiny any more. Reality simply isn't lining up with it any more.

Ringo doesn't strike me as dumb, in the sense of having a very low IQ. So the only other alternative to her not noticing this is that she's deeply delusional, and basically crazy.
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Old 2011-09-03, 01:48   Link #1093
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I don't think focusing too much on Ringo affect the show's quality.

I did complain on too much screen-time for Ringo myself in past few episode. But that was only when there's a lack of both plot and clear character developments. On another hand, while this episode has showed the same level of focus; however for the development it is heading toward, i can't really rate it anything less than 10/10 for what it presented.

It's possible that some of us are mixing up between the uneasiness toward Ringo as a character and toward the quality of this anime on pacing? To prove on this, I would like to see if any of us seeing Ringo' character done perfectly so far, AND still found the problem with pacing


Edit:The love toward characters must affect the feeling toward series pacing through, as I don't think S;G has done a good job on setting up the timing for plot and character developments. Obviously many would disagree on this
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Old 2011-09-03, 02:01   Link #1094
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Sorry Solace, too tired to rebut your well-written and respectful post point by point, so I'll just so that I disagree with almost all of it! Specifically, it isn't a question of not being familiar with two-cour series - trust me, I've been watching anime long enough that I haven't forgotten what two cour series are like in terms of pacing and development. The pacing and balance of this show have just gotten out of whack, whether it's one cour or two, or ten. I also disagree with this kind of parallel you seem to be drawing between Shou and Ringo, who I think are almost polar opposites in everything that have been thrown together by fate. In point of fact, Shouma is with Ringo because he's trying to do something selfless, and Ringo is with Shou because she's trying to use him for selfish means.

Finally, I don't think the problem is that Ringo is shining a mirror to all these other characters, and we don't like what we see. I think she's looking in that mirror and we don't like what we see - namely, her. One major problem is that we're 8 eps in and only Ringo and Shouma have gotten any real development at all. That makes the fact that a viewer might have major issues with Ringo taking over the series (and clearly, some don't) a major issue for those viewers.

I do think your post was respectfully intended, Solace, and I appreciate it. But I think you'd doing a little of what we've already seen, namely saying that if you don't buy what Ikuhara is selling, you must be defective. You're doing it in a nicer way, but respectfully, it's still condescending.
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Old 2011-09-03, 03:12   Link #1095
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
But I think you'd doing a little of what we've already seen, namely saying that if you don't buy what Ikuhara is selling, you must be defective. You're doing it in a nicer way, but respectfully, it's still condescending.
Sorry to butt in, but I'm beginning to wonder why you're even bothering to watch this show if you don't like it, and keep accusing everyone who does of worshiping Ikuhara.
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Old 2011-09-03, 03:29   Link #1096
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Sorry to butt in, but I'm beginning to wonder why you're even bothering to watch this show if you don't like it, and keep accusing everyone who does of worshiping Ikuhara.
Maybe because you can be critical while still enjoying something? I know, novel concept and all.
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Old 2011-09-03, 03:38   Link #1097
Crontica
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Maybe because you can be critical while still enjoying something? I know, novel concept and all.
Maybe because we don't like people who accuse others that defend the show are being ravaging fanboys.
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Old 2011-09-03, 03:58   Link #1098
Solace
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There are similarities between the two of them, definitely. I mentioned that myself a week or two ago on this thread, IIRC

However, you're going too far in drawing moral equivalency between the two of them, imo. There are some lines that Ringo is all-too-willing to cross, but Shou clearly isn't. Episode 8 in particular made that crystal clear. So it shouldn't be hard to see how a viewer could like Shou, but dislike Ringo. One is fully willing to rape Tabuki, the other is totally against such a literal rape happening.
Shou may have objected but he has gone along with almost everything so far. His "line in the sand" was the rape. I'm not drawing moral equivalency, I'm saying that he was (intentionally or not) an enabler because he wanted the diary. She may be more aggressive, and he may be a pushover, but that doesn't make it right. When he finally grows a backbone and stands up to her, she calls him on it, and she's right. All things considered, he's not that much different than her, if not in goals or even in lengths he'll go but definitely in motivations.

Quote:
It's not that Ringo, the character, is overwhelming everything else.

It's that Ringo's mission is overwhelming everything else. For at least half of this anime to date, we have been entirely caught up in Ringo's mission to win over Tabuki.

It might not be too slow or unbalanced yet. One more episode like these last few, though, and it will be, imo.
We have. I didn't deny that. However this isn't the only stuff going on in the episodes and it shouldn't be that hard to notice that much of it is connected. I guess I don't focus or think as much about Ringo's goal as much as I focus and think about all the other pieces of the show (the symbolism, how other characters are involved, etc.). I assumed from the episode 3 that her plan was stupid and wouldn't work....but I also think that each episode has shown a solid progression in events:

1. Episode 3 - Curry Day as an interesting connections event. Yuri is introduced, showing the first major wedge in Ringo's plans. However this same event also allows her to meet the siblings. This means the diary is revealed as desired by the hat penguin. Kanba is discussed as being connected to an idol.

2. Episode 4 - Skunks. This episode shows us that Ringo's diary is suspicious, detailing events down to the minute and even predicting a girl falling down stairs. Events do play out, just not according to Ringo's wishes. Yuri is shown to be more intuitive and manipulative than she appears. Girls tied to Kanba are introduced.

3. Episode 5 - The first real glimpse into Ringo's character. We also get sibling character development in the form of a flashback. Mysterious girl is shown connected to Penguins, and girl is shown to be connected to Kanba. Ringo gets a moment of awesome. Kanba is shown having "interesting" connections.

4. Episode 6 - Explanation of Ringo's history and the meaning of Curry Day. Shou officially helps her out in exchange for the Diary. Kanba is targeted, two more ex-girlfriends are "shot". More information on the Diary is revealed. First mention of Project M. New black penguin is shown.

....and so on. It is true that Ringo's quest for Tabuki is a big plot element at this point, but there is other stuff, and it is interesting, to me at least. Obviously not to others, and that's fine.

Quote:
Never in Steins;Gate did we languish around a pointless conflict for this long.
My point about S;G was that it spent the first half of the series focused on "pointless" stuff like Ruka turning into a girl, Moeka never talking, Kurisu reciting chan memes, and so on. In a lot of ways the first half of the series felt episodic, and even a bit slow. Sure, there was the whole "find the IBN" and SERN stuff that slowly progressed through each episode, but none of this stuff really paid off until *spoilers*. From then on, all those "pointless" episodes felt much more important.

Now there is one other advantage in S;G that isn't apparent in MPD, and that's the setting. Since much of any particular episode was set in one particular spot, the cast was constantly grouped together and interacted more. This isn't the case here, as the characters are all off in different directions in different places. That doesn't help much when you're trying to flesh out characters or you run the risk of jumping around too much and confusing everyone.

Anyway, I wasn't intending to directly compare the two series (just kind of happened). I mentioned S;G mostly just to point out that many two cours do start out kind of slow and often unrelated on what you really want to see until the second half pulls everything together.

Quote:
This is why I think that Ringo has the potential to be a compelling tragic character if she's allowed to come crashing down soon. Now's the moment for Ikuhara to strike. The iron is hot now. If he waits much longer, it'll be too late.
Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
Momoka's notebook is clearly not a book of destiny. For awhile, it was possibly so. In the skunk episode, for example, the predictions made in the diary were kind of coming true. Since then, though, they haven't been.

Part of the reason why I hold Ringo to be completely crazy at this point is that there's no logical basis whatsoever for her to view Momoka's notebook as a book of destiny any more. Reality simply isn't lining up with it any more.
The diary is important though. It may or may not be a predictor of the future, but it is important. All we really know of it is glimpses and what Ringo does with it. Considering her mental state, it's not inconceivable that she's simply interpreting it the "wrong" way. The diary is too specific (predicted a death, what girls diary, especially a dead young girl, would have that?), desired by both "forces" (hat and mysterious girl), Project M, and (this is mostly my own speculah) I don't think that Tabuki and Yuri being together is as innocent as it looks. But I'm waiting for a few more episodes just to see if my theory pans out though.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Sorry Solace, too tired to rebut your well-written and respectful post point by point, so I'll just so that I disagree with almost all of it!
I'm not shocked.

Quote:
I also disagree with this kind of parallel you seem to be drawing between Shou and Ringo, who I think are almost polar opposites in everything that have been thrown together by fate. In point of fact, Shouma is with Ringo because he's trying to do something selfless, and Ringo is with Shou because she's trying to use him for selfish means.
They're both selfish. He's doing this for Himari, because he can't accept that she died. The hat keeps her alive, and he doesn't want her to die, so he does what the hat commands. She's doing this for her family, because she can't accept that her family broke apart. She thinks if she follows the diary she can become the missing piece that caused the divorce (her dead sister) and her family will be fixed. They're using each other to get what they want.

Quote:
That makes the fact that a viewer might have major issues with Ringo taking over the series (and clearly, some don't) a major issue for those viewers.
Fair enough. I never said people shouldn't think this way to begin with. I was just stating that I think things are more connected than they seem because some people feel she's taken up too much of the story (so far).

Quote:
I do think your post was respectfully intended, Solace, and I appreciate it. But I think you'd doing a little of what we've already seen, namely saying that if you don't buy what Ikuhara is selling, you must be defective. You're doing it in a nicer way, but respectfully, it's still condescending.
You're reading into what I said and assuming things you shouldn't. I could care less if Miyazaki, Shinbo, or KyoAni were behind this. I don't get hung up on names. I care about interesting premises. I never said that people should drink the MPD punch and be happy with everything. Is it so wrong to express an opinion?
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Old 2011-09-03, 04:11   Link #1099
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Maybe because you can be critical while still enjoying something? I know, novel concept and all.
Criticizing anything to that extent makes the critic seem as though they never enjoy ANYTHING, regardless of whether or not they actually do.
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Old 2011-09-03, 05:19   Link #1100
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Concerning the dialogue under the rain, I think that Ringo is implying that Shouma and Kanba's love for their sister is not brotherly but romantic and that they are just playing the role of the happy family.

At this point I am 99% sure that Momoka's Diary is not magical. Everything that the diary happened to "predict" was just a coincidence or Ringo's delusion. In the case of the "woman with the red shoes", the diary never actually said anything about a murder or falling down the stairs.
But the Diary must contain some clue to the location of the actual Penguin Drum, otherwise these 8 episodes would feel wasted. There must be a reason why the Princess of the Crystal directed the brothers towards Ringo in the first place.

Lastly I want to comment about the whole Ikuhara debate: when a legendary director (such as Ikuhara, Anno, Kawamori, etc.) comes back to the director's seat after many years, it is inevitable that people will compare his new show to his previous works.
While nobody is compelled to watch the director's previous shows, I strongly suggest to everybody in this thread to go pick up Utena since it's such an important piece of animation. Knowing the director's quirks also gives you more tools to judge the new show.
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