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Old 2011-09-03, 06:12   Link #1101
Kirarakim
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I have not watched the latest episode yet but while I understand people who don't like Ringo not being happy with the direction of the show I don't understand why people think Ringo is going to be the ONLY focus of the show.

Maybe I am acting on false hope but I just think Ringo is only 1 important element of the show that is being focused on first.

There is plenty of stuff in the background that we do not know about yet. We still don't know what the Penguin Drum is. We don't know what Kanba is doing to get the money. We don't know what the sad fate Shouma alluded to was. We don't know what Natsume's deal is, etc. There are a lot of storylines being alluded to that have not been fully explored and I doubt they will just be ignored.

And heck there is that pink haired character in the Opening we didn't even meet yet.

I could be wrong but I just think Ringo's story line is the first storyline and it will tie in later to all the other storylines that are now in the background.

And actually I was so so on Utena (there were things I liked and things I didn't) so I do not have blind faith in Ikuhara. In fact so far I might like this series more. But Utena was broken up into clearly defined arcs and I just think it's going to be the same with this series. So yes I do understand when people say it's just the directors style (the same with the stock footage used for the Penguin Queen scene).

Of course maybe I can be more patient because I like Ringo's storyline but if that is ALL the show turns out to be I will be disappointed too. I just don't think this is the case.


However I do have a theory that the reason that there isn't a lot of focus on Himari is because she isn't meant to be a fully developed character but more a plot element. So while I expect more development/focus for the other characters, I am not so sure about Himari (but I could be wrong).
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Old 2011-09-03, 07:29   Link #1102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post

At this point I am 99% sure that Momoka's Diary is not magical. .
the penguin drum is the destiny stamp.

True Story.
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Old 2011-09-03, 11:46   Link #1103
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Sorry to butt in, but I'm beginning to wonder why you're even bothering to watch this show if you don't like it, and keep accusing everyone who does of worshiping Ikuhara.
Jeebus...

Since I pepper every post with what I do like about the show, perhaps if you read them without an agenda you might not need to ask the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
You're reading into what I said and assuming things you shouldn't. I could care less if Miyazaki, Shinbo, or KyoAni were behind this. I don't get hung up on names. I care about interesting premises. I never said that people should drink the MPD punch and be happy with everything. Is it so wrong to express an opinion?
I get that, honestly. But the crux of it was still, effectively, "If you don't like it it's because you forgot what two-cour shows are supposed to be like... Or because you don't like that Ringo revealed the flaws in the other characters... etc. etc."

It just seems to me that people have trouble accepting that perhaps, some viewers quite simply have an issue with Ringo as a character and an issue with elements of the show on it's own merits. The presumption is that there must be something wrong with your perspective or perception if you aren't all-in. I don't think it's necessarily all Ikuhara-worship (I don't think so in your case) but it seems deeply rooted with this series.

Whatever - I think it's high time to move beyond this argument anyway.
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Old 2011-09-03, 11:59   Link #1104
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i underestimated Himari, she KOed both bothers in 1 hit...

Ringo's desperate actions and Sho's shocking ending is the highlight of this eps, actually i pity both of them
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Old 2011-09-03, 13:09   Link #1105
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Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
the penguin drum is the destiny stamp.

True Story.
what is the significance of it (drum/stamp)? Ringo stamps her diary with it. But depending on how you look at it, the things she writes either don't come true, or the opposite happens.
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Old 2011-09-03, 14:52   Link #1106
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Criticizing anything to that extent makes the critic seem as though they never enjoy ANYTHING, regardless of whether or not they actually do.
That's bullshit. If people came in here, and claimed that every aspect of the show is trash and people are idiots for liking it, then I'd see you'd have a point. But what we have here is certain people criticizing several aspects of the show. It's possible to hate parts of a show and love another part.

There are certain shows (Ore no Imouto, Hana Saku Iroha, Angel Beats) where I despise many aspects of, but there are a few compelling things that convince me to stay.

Do not confuse being critical with outright hatred. One might lead to another, but it certainly doesn't all the time. It's a good idea not to infer someone's intentions through a few posts and portray them with nonsensical hyperbole, after all.

I manage to enjoy at least 75% of shows I watch, no matter how heavily I manage to bash them.
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Old 2011-09-03, 15:01   Link #1107
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re Gohan78's post: I think the title should be judged on its own merits. Too much of a bother to dig up an old title and rewatch it for the sake of watching a newer title.
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Old 2011-09-03, 15:39   Link #1108
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I do think your post was respectfully intended, Solace, and I appreciate it. But I think you'd doing a little of what we've already seen, namely saying that if you don't buy what Ikuhara is selling, you must be defective. You're doing it in a nicer way, but respectfully, it's still condescending.
Since I started the whole thing, I suppose I should close it as well.

First thing, I think it's condescending to call people's sincere opinion of your opinion condescending. I can vouch for myself that I did make that post in quite a bad taste because I made it with the exact intentions of bringing forth this onslaught but I do claim that I don't hold a condescending view of your opinions and claim that you are being condescending when you say I was being condescending for suggesting that you were being too critical of the show. At least just as condescending as suggesting that you were being too critical of the show is. That, of course, is assuming that the people don't have a personal attachment to the show or some vendetta against you. I don't have any - you may or not believe - and I don't think Solace does either.

Second, you can ALWAYS find something to criticize. There has to be a "functional" limit somewhere. Whether or not such limits are philosophically justifiable have nothing to do with them being functional. Functional limits and definitions have no place in personal opinions but they are required in critical works because uncalibrated criticism is the bane of all progress and nothing can function without them.

I am gonna pull off some lame anecdote here but I think it makes sense here. Back in the seventh grade, I did some physics experiment (iirc, to extrapolate the boiling point of water on room temperature to figure out the boiling point at 0 degree Celsius in the same room) and I did everything correct and submitted my work. My teacher called me forward and asked me with a very inquisitive look as to why I wrote a huge 1 in the experiment no. column and implied he was gonna fail me for something trivial like that. After letting me stay stumped for about a minute (obviously, writing the number big didn't do much to add to the presentation so that would have been a moot point), he told me something I will always remember. You can always find a flaw in something, a flaw that can't be explained rationally - a flaw that will 100 % silence the designer or anyone (unless they come down to reiterating same thing over and over and name calling and such - basically, unless it turns ugly) and that's entirely fine - so long as the person who finds those trivial flaws to be critical keeps it to himself. I got my perfect grade, obviously, even if my teacher passionately hated big numerals.

A subjective flaw shouldn't have a bearing on the critical rating of a product - at least not until the flaw is glaring enough for it to be treated somewhat objectively. That's the difference between a critical review and a personal opinion. I assumed yours was a critical review and I merely suggested that you were perhaps going overboard given that for the flaws you pointed out to be treatable objectively, the show would need to have gone at least past half it's intended length (and I agree that that can be argued either which way) - a critical opinion of your critical opinion (and I don't disagree, an overboard one). I don't care particularly as to the show to which this was related to. I apologize for going overboard but I did so because I generally like you and thus wanted to highlight the exact opposite perspective from yours because it deserved to be brought up but nobody was standing up for it as much as you were for yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Jeebus...

Since I pepper every post with what I do like about the show, perhaps if you read them without an agenda you might not need to ask the question.

I get that, honestly. But the crux of it was still, effectively, "If you don't like it it's because you forgot what two-cour shows are supposed to be like... Or because you don't like that Ringo revealed the flaws in the other characters... etc. etc."

It just seems to me that people have trouble accepting that perhaps, some viewers quite simply have an issue with Ringo as a character and an issue with elements of the show on it's own merits. The presumption is that there must be something wrong with your perspective or perception if you aren't all-in. I don't think it's necessarily all Ikuhara-worship (I don't think so in your case) but it seems deeply rooted with this series.

Whatever - I think it's high time to move beyond this argument anyway.
I don't think the crux of Solace's post was the argument that you were not getting the show because it was two cour or that you don't see the role Ringo is playing etc. I think it was that show is building up and per pace as far as he can tell it and that Ringo is playing a significant enough role in the story to justify the highlight she has thus far received. The difference in tone is very subtle - but it makes a world of difference.

Agreed with the last line because flaws can always be found in anything and we could go at it endlessly. I won't exactly mind continuing it either though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
That's bullshit. If people came in here, and claimed that every aspect of the show is trash and people are idiots for liking it, then I'd see you'd have a point. But what we have here is certain people criticizing several aspects of the show. It's possible to hate parts of a show and love another part.

There are certain shows (Ore no Imouto, Hana Saku Iroha, Angel Beats) where I despise many aspects of, but there are a few compelling things that convince me to stay.

Do not confuse being critical with outright hatred. One might lead to another, but it certainly doesn't. It's a good idea not to infer someone's intentions through a few posts and portray them with nonsensical hyperbole, after all.

I manage to enjoy at least 75% of shows I watch, no matter how heavily I manage to bash them.
I agree with the claim that you can enjoy a show regardless of how much you bash them. I am 100 % sure that Guardian Enzo or Reckoner enjoy this show as much as I do. That does imply that I don't particularly think this is the best show ever but the entertainment an audience draws isn't exactly related to how good a work of fiction arguably is anyway. I'd be hard pressed to enjoy a performance of "Julius Caesar" as much as I enjoy a cheesy episode of Yuru Yuri for instance. However, functional limits are essential in most everything and criticism is no exception. And even then, his wondering what the critics are doing in a show if they don't enjoy it at all is a valid concern of his - just as valid as any other concern anyone else may have about anything else and to call that being condescending is condescending in and of itself.
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Old 2011-09-03, 15:48   Link #1109
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
re Gohan78's post: I think the title should be judged on its own merits. Too much of a bother to dig up an old title and rewatch it for the sake of watching a newer title.
Truly you are right and you don't need to watch Utena to enjoy Penguindrum but I think if you did watch Utena you would understand certain things about the director's style which might bring out more enjoyment of Penguindrum. But it is not a necessity.

Another title I would throw out there is Night on the Galactic Railroad (which someone on this thread mentioned some weeks earlier that Ikuhara was taking themes/symbolism from). Watching the movie also added to my enjoyment of Penguindrum because I want to see where Ikuhara takes these these similar themes on his own path. And well it's just a really good movie on its own so it doesn't hurt.

So watching another series/movie should not be something you HAVE to do to find enjoyment from another series but it could add to that enjoyment, especially if you like to see the connection between things.
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Old 2011-09-03, 16:01   Link #1110
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
I agree with the claim that you can enjoy a show regardless of how much you bash them. I am 100 % sure that Guardian Enzo or Reckoner enjoy this show as much as I do. That does imply that I don't particularly think this is the best show ever but the entertainment an audience draws isn't exactly related to how good a work of fiction arguably is anyway. I'd be hard pressed to enjoy a performance of "Julius Caesar" as much as I enjoy a cheesy episode of Yuru Yuri for instance. However, functional limits are essential in most everything and criticism is no exception. And even then, his wondering what the critics are doing in a show if they don't enjoy it at all is a valid concern of his - just as valid as any other concern anyone else may have about anything else and to call that being condescending is condescending in and of itself.
My point is, however, that extent has not been reached.

If someone is so annoyed that they simply block out other points of view, then yes there is no point being here. If someone is so annoyed, they're not even here to think and just bash things/people-- There's no point being here.

They may just keep watching because they can. But those aren't critics, just masochists.

I don't see that happening in this thread. And arguably, said excessive critics in the context of this thread, are to me, imaginary people that have no bearing on reality.

If you may show me several posts in this thread that display a continuing display of excessive negativity without any thing to balance it out, please point them out.

Btw, tone is not really my point and it's irrelevant if I sound condescending myself.. Even if I do sound condescending, I just stick to addressing points, and not trying to extrapolate people's agendas. I post to express my points, not to play internet psychologist.
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Old 2011-09-03, 16:03   Link #1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
re Gohan78's post: I think the title should be judged on its own merits. Too much of a bother to dig up an old title and rewatch it for the sake of watching a newer title.
Plus if a show can't be judged independently of another unrelated work that kind of makes for a deepky flawed experience. Not that I'm saying that's at all the case here since I'm not watching the show to bask in the glow of Ikuhara who I'd never heard of before this thread, but because it was recommended it to me and I'm still intrigued by it mostly thanks to Ringos unusual storyline.

I definetly have to agree that the next episode could very well make or break the show. Is the plot about to kick into high gear here or is it back to lighthearted fantasy land. Much as I've liked the latter (and believe me when I say that this is coming from someone who normally loathes that sort of thing so maybe that is a testament to something Ikuhara brings) I think the end of this episode demands the former. I certainly wouldn't expect to see the latter again.
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Old 2011-09-03, 16:03   Link #1112
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
My point is, however, that extent has not been reached.

If someone is so annoyed that they simply block out other points of view, then yes there is no point being here. If someone is so annoyed, they're not even here to think and just bash things/people. There's no point being here.

They may just keep watching because they can. But those aren't critics, just masochists.

I don't see that happening in this thread. And arguably, said excessive critics are to me, imaginary people that have no bearing on reality.
I consent that whether or not the extent has been reached can be argued either which way. But to call an argument that opines that it has been reached bullshit just like that is bullshit too
Agreed with the rest.
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Old 2011-09-03, 16:17   Link #1113
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I consent that whether or not the extent has been reached can be argued either which way. But to call an argument that opines that it has been reached bullshit just like that is bullshit too
Agreed with the rest.
An argument that relies on things that are false or based on people that don't exist is indeed, bullshit.

My point is if said hater existed in this thread, then all arguments of "If you don't like this show, leave" have some kind of validity. Otherwise, it's irrelevant.

Creating an extremist figure that may or may not exist and then associating with people would come across as pretty dishonest to me, I'd say.
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Old 2011-09-03, 16:37   Link #1114
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
An argument that relies on things that are false or based on people that don't exist is indeed, bullshit.

My point is if said hater existed in this thread, then all arguments of "If you don't like this show, leave" have some kind of validity. Otherwise, it's irrelevant.

Creating an extremist figure that may or may not exist and then associating with people would come across as pretty dishonest to me, I'd say.
But isn't whether or not such an extremist figure already exists in the thread up to the subjective opinion of a poster as well? How is it any more honest to call that opinion as dishonest?
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Old 2011-09-03, 16:45   Link #1115
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
But isn't whether or not such an extremist figure already exists in the thread up to the subjective opinion of a poster as well? How is it any more honest to call that opinion as dishonest?
Yes, but use common sense. Because at that rate I can just pull the opinion excuse for myself and we'd be running around in a circle. If you're not sure of someone's intentions, you probably shouldn't say that much. Opinions have to be supported by facts otherwise they are nonsense. There is no proof that, blah i'll be blunt, that Guardian Enzo is not enjoying the show overall.

And honestly I think someone would be aware of their opinions over others that are trying to extrapolate them. Everything based on this is thus, BS.

Anyhow, that's enough meta-posting for me.
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Old 2011-09-03, 17:23   Link #1116
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Yes, but use common sense. Because at that rate I can just pull the opinion excuse for myself and we'd be running around in a circle. If you're not sure of someone's intentions, you probably shouldn't say that much. Opinions have to be supported by facts otherwise they are nonsense. There is no proof that, blah i'll be blunt, that Guardian Enzo is not enjoying the show overall.

And honestly I think someone would be aware of their opinions over others that are trying to extrapolate them. Everything based on this is thus, BS.

Anyhow, that's enough meta-posting for me.
Let me put it another way then. You don't exactly need an extremist in the thread - whether or not there is one is already subjective - but whether or not you need one is subjective as well. When you say that someone who thinks people are complaining too much is creating extremists out of thin air or wrongly accusing someone of being an extremist, are you not, in effect, being an extremist yourself?

Basically, there is no proof that , and I will be blunt too, that Kaisos Erranon thinks of Guardian Enzo as an extremist. In fact, I am sure that he doesn't (you might not be and that's cool). The former pondering why the latter is still watching the show if the latter finds the show flawed to a fault is quite much more within rational grounds than him accusing the other of being an extremist. When you write his sincere opinion off as bullshit, are you not bullshitting just as much at the very least? What of your supposition that he wasn't being honest? People are more honest when they speak out than when they keep to themselves - so has he not been more honest by stating out loud what he felt than letting the flow of the discussion dictate to him how he should feel?

Yeah, let's continue in PM or something if you wish. The thread doesn't need to polluted any further ._.
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Old 2011-09-03, 17:33   Link #1117
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Let me put it another way then. You don't exactly need an extremist in the thread - whether or not there is one is already subjective - but whether or not you need one is subjective as well. When you say that someone who thinks people are complaining too much is creating extremists out of thin air or wrongly accusing someone of being an extremist, are you not, in effect, being an extremist yourself?

Basically, there is no proof that , and I will be blunt too, that Kaisos Erranon thinks of Guardian Enzo as an extremist. In fact, I am sure that he doesn't (you might not be and that's cool). The former pondering why the latter is still watching the show if the latter finds the show flawed to a fault is quite much more within rational grounds than him accusing the other of being an extremist. When you write his sincere opinion off as bullshit, are you not bullshitting just as much at the very least? What of your supposition that he wasn't being honest? People are more honest when they speak out than when they keep to themselves - so has he not been more honest by stating out loud what he felt than letting the flow of the discussion dictate to him how he should feel?

Yeah, let's continue in PM or something if you wish. The thread doesn't need to polluted any further ._.
You umm, sorta misinterpreted my post.

The entire thing is based on Guardian Enzo not enjoying the show. I could care frankly care less if it's someone's honest opinion or not. It's built upon a faulty premise that we have no evidence to prove. Except anything built off it has no validity

So yes, you can write my posts off as bullshit too; It doesn't change anything though. I don't really care though, but I think my posts are based on legitimate reasoning and not assumptions about people's intentions. I only attack posts, not people, after all. It also doesn't matter if I'm a hypocrite or not either.

If you want to devolve into that level of subjectivity there's no point in talking anymore. But couldn't you at least agree that meta-opinions need more strength before tossing them around?

And off to VMs or whatever.
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Old 2011-09-03, 17:45   Link #1118
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Old 2011-09-03, 17:47   Link #1119
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Oh man, the punching gloves were hilarious.

I really want to see gifs of the chopstick fights and #3 with the gloves.
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Old 2011-09-03, 18:30   Link #1120
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Plus if a show can't be judged independently of another unrelated work that kind of makes for a deepky flawed experience. Not that I'm saying that's at all the case here since I'm not watching the show to bask in the glow of Ikuhara who I'd never heard of before this thread, but because it was recommended it to me and I'm still intrigued by it mostly thanks to Ringos unusual storyline.
I actually have both titles at home and feel no need to rewatch them just to understand this title. I'm watching this because it looks interesting. That's all.
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