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Old 2013-06-19, 19:05   Link #221
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
But I'm not blaming Batman for refusing to be executioner outside the bounds of the law. I'm blaming mediocre DC writers for using writers fiat to keep this scenario happening over and over again. Just so they can pornographically rehash the Batman/Joker no killing discussion ad nauseum.
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
You can have Joker/Batman confrontations without making the big meta question with them be "will Batman finally snap and kill the joker?"

The situation is a bit deeper than that. Aside from the whole "If I kill, I might never stop" dilemma and the "two sides of the same coin" theory, there is this issue: Bruce is afraid of what might come after the Joker is gone. Gotham is an insane place, but if you manage to destroy the outlining insane one, who knows how further things might go?
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Old 2013-06-19, 19:32   Link #222
Ithekro
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Man of Steel's Superman might develope is "no kill" policy as a result of this incident with Zod. Their is the chance the writers have thought about that in light of potental sequels and of course a Justice League film.
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Old 2013-06-19, 19:37   Link #223
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I highly enjoyed Man of Steel. I plan on seeing it a 2nd time, but from my first viewing; I didn't leave disappointed. I thought this take on Superman was very interesting and tried to be grounded without taking away too much from the mythology.

From the negative criticism it's getting with it being too serious, unfunny, not romantic, Superman killing Zod, collateral damage; not caring for civilians, etc. This Superman is not the full seasoned Superman were used to seeing. He's still figuring out how to make choices and with good intentions, some of those choices he can't help. By the end, his main objective was to stop Zod. When it got to that point, he was either going to have Zod kill that family or prevent him from doing so, therefore Zod forcing his hand. It's not like Superman wanted to as he was obviously not pleased with what he had done. I'm probably repeating stuff that people may have said, but seeing Superman going through the same struggles as to find out who he is makes him more relatable, and I think that's another thing that the filmmakers are trying to convey to the general audience.
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Old 2013-06-19, 20:33   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The situation is a bit deeper than that. Aside from the whole "If I kill, I might never stop" dilemma and the "two sides of the same coin"
But Batman feels that way about everyone he fights (particularly kinda nutty guys). Not just the Joker. The joker isn't special in that regard. All that's special about Joker is that he's depraved enough to challenge Batman's principle on killing.

It's certainly interesting to challenges a characters deeply held beliefs. But the challenge to it shouldn't be formulaic (Jokers increasingly depraved acts of violence). And horrific acts of violence/evil shouldn't be committed in a story just to provide fodder to your characters own private psychodrama.
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
: Bruce is afraid of what might come after the Joker is gone. Gotham is an insane place, but if you manage to destroy the outlining insane one, who knows how further things might go?
Batman is pretty perceptive, being able to realize he's in a badly written comic book universe, where disrupting status quo results in horrific consequences.
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Old 2013-06-19, 20:38   Link #225
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Batman is pretty perceptive, being able to realize he's in a badly written comic book universe, where disrupting status quo results in horrific consequences.
Oddly, I wouldn't be surprised if Batman was that meta about his existance.
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Old 2013-06-19, 20:40   Link #226
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Oddly, I wouldn't be surprised if Batman was that meta about his existance.
He's not. Deadpool is the only character who's that meta. And don't you dare take his yellow text bubbles or there will be hell to pay. He is NOT okay with white text bubbles.
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Old 2013-06-19, 21:54   Link #227
sunset
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My advise to Superman?
If people are gonna complain this much about the collateral damage, next time, just get out of the way and let the World machines do their work.
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Old 2013-06-19, 23:58   Link #228
Samari
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Question. Can't seem to remember why this was done in the film.

Spoiler for ...:
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Old 2013-06-20, 08:20   Link #229
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Hostage, I assume. They never really explained it.
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Old 2013-06-20, 09:24   Link #230
sunset
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This whole "Superman doesn't kill" debate is funny if only because it made me go back and do some research.

Spoiler for I'm a lover, not a killer.:


That's the result of a 3 minute research.
From what I hear, if I go to the actual Superman comic instead of the Action Comics he guest starred in, the carnage will increase tenfold.
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Old 2013-06-20, 09:26   Link #231
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You're also looking at Golden Age comics. The only things that are still around from golden age comics are basically origin stories and characters themselves.
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Old 2013-06-20, 09:32   Link #232
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
You're also looking at Golden Age comics. The only things that are still around from golden age comics are basically origin stories and characters themselves.
Seriously though, it is easy to justify why Superman might not want to kill thugs or other mortal criminals. Most of them actually pose no threat to him, and it would be an excessive use of force to kill those who couldn't even harm him in any way. It's the super-villains that cause problems.
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Old 2013-06-20, 09:47   Link #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunset View Post
This whole "Superman doesn't kill" debate is funny if only because it made me go back and do some research.

Spoiler for I'm a lover, not a killer.:


That's the result of a 3 minute research.
From what I hear, if I go to the actual Superman comic instead of the Action Comics he guest starred in, the carnage will increase tenfold.
Yes, and the early Batman went around wielding a gun of all things and killed criminals every other issue. Most people don't remember these earliest versions of the characters because they're drastically different from what they've been the vast majority of their existence. So people just dismiss them, just like nobody takes seriously the old "Superdickery" comic book covers.

You can find visual comic book evidence of Superman marrying Jimmy Olsen to a gorilla but if you actually pulled that in a live-action movie, it would not fly.
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Old 2013-06-20, 09:50   Link #234
sunset
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
You're also looking at Golden Age comics. The only things that are still around from golden age comics are basically origin stories and characters themselves.
Spoiler for There will be blood:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, and the early Batman went around wielding a gun of all things and killed criminals every other issue. Most people don't remember these earliest versions of the characters because they're drastically different from what they've been the vast majority of their existence. So people just dismiss them, just like nobody takes seriously the old "Superdickery" comic book covers.

You can find visual comic book evidence of Superman marrying Jimmy Olsen to a gorilla but if you actually pulled that in a live-action movie, it would not fly.
Apparently, Superman killing not only flew, but moviegoers seem to have little problem with it - a few internet voices nonwithstanding-.

Last edited by sunset; 2013-06-20 at 10:10.
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Old 2013-06-20, 10:12   Link #235
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Originally Posted by sunset View Post
Apparently, Superman killing not only flew, but moviegoers seem to have little problem with it - a few internet voices nonwithstanding-.
It's not a deal-breaker for most people. It's not a deal-breaker for me. But it has detracted from the enjoyment of the film for a lot of people. I find that unfortunate since Nolan never even wanted to go with this to begin with (Goyer and Snyder reportedly talked him into it).

Man of Steel is doing great sales-wise, of course, and as a Superman fan I'm happy about that. But I wish the movie was something that could unite Superman fans rather than divide us, and going by what I've seen throughout the internet, it has divided us.
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Old 2013-06-20, 10:59   Link #236
sunset
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not a deal-breaker for most people. It's not a deal-breaker for me. But it has detracted from the enjoyment of the film for a lot of people. I find that unfortunate since Nolan never even wanted to go with this to begin with (Goyer and Snyder reportedly talked him into it).

Man of Steel is doing great sales-wise, of course, and as a Superman fan I'm happy about that. But I wish the movie was something that could unite Superman fans rather than divide us, and going by what I've seen throughout the internet, it has divided us.
That's one way to see it.
OTOH, the controversy has galvanized people and made them discuss Superman - something that hadn't happened in forever - .
In my book, that's a win-win, really.
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Old 2013-06-20, 11:31   Link #237
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People have been discussing Microsoft and the Xbone too. Just because people talk about something doesn't mean it's a good thing.
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Old 2013-06-20, 11:37   Link #238
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Meh expected to see more funny crap like the previous Super Man movie and a few times the acting is ways off but I guess it's worth watching.
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Old 2013-06-20, 11:39   Link #239
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by sunset View Post
That's one way to see it.
OTOH, the controversy has galvanized people and made them discuss Superman - something that hadn't happened in forever - .
In my book, that's a win-win, really.
It is good to see people talking a lot about Superman, yeah.

Well, if nothing else, I think this movie could work reasonably well as a springboard for a shared DC movie universe.
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Old 2013-06-20, 14:20   Link #240
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Well, if nothing else, I think this movie could work reasonably well as a springboard for a shared DC movie universe.
Sadly, the series already feels spent. Where do you go after a full scale alien invasion that kills hundreds of thousands if not millions of people? Not even The Avengers had the balls to actually destroy a city, a few wrecked buildings, sure, but not the wholesale destruction of Man of Steel. As it is, the only possibility for a Superman sequel is one in which the world reacts negatively to him and he has to find some way of redeeming himself (Amanda Waller would be a great villains for the sequel), and that doesn't even begin to address just what a Justice League move would entail and why Superman would even need help from other heroes when regular humans do the job just fine for the small stuff and Superman is already powerful enough to battle multiple superpowered individuals to a stand-still and still have the strength to destroy a world terraforming device and then still kill Zod.

Frankly, Man of Steel would have been better served with a much smaller scale feature with either multiple lower level villains or one decent mid-level villain (Atomic Skull, Livewire, Parasite, etc) and all the Zod stuff should have been left for the sequel or the Justice League film. I loved the action in this film, but as an origin story movie goes, this one was very weak in terms of actually setting up Superman.
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