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Old 2011-04-14, 06:26   Link #41
Irkalla
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It's just something about the hero genre that is insanely off-putting with most American comics, not to mention the portrayal of women(in the fridge), I won't even go there. I do like the more artsy stuff, tho. Sandman, Lucifer, Madam Xenadu, Hellblazer, and all the other edgy Vertigo stuff are a good example of what I dig.

Has anybody ever tried reading some Italian comics? Dylan Dog is a huge title around here.

ps. As far as panelling is concerned, I have not come across anybody that could do it better than Sean Murphy, it's like you are experiencing a movie, really gripping stuff.
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Old 2011-04-14, 07:07   Link #42
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Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
Has anyone read comics from Dark Horse? maybe Buffy season 8?

Spoiler for :
I love Madman and that was published by Dark Horse for a while, but other than that and Sin City I don't really like anything published by them.
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Old 2011-04-14, 07:17   Link #43
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Irkalla View Post
It's just something about the hero genre that is insanely off-putting with most American comics, not to mention the portrayal of women(in the fridge), I won't even go there. I do like the more artsy stuff, tho. Sandman, Lucifer, Madam Xenadu, Hellblazer, and all the other edgy Vertigo stuff are a good example of what I dig.
To me it's less the hero genre, and so much how almost everything in the Marvel/DC universe gets shoe horned together, since stories are limited how much they can change things as part of a regular series.



One series that I really liked for this reason was Light Brigade. A focused story on a small group of normal people going out and doing stuff. (Plus the coloring/character design didn't make me want to stab my eyes out )

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Old 2011-04-14, 12:06   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
To me it's less the hero genre, and so much how almost everything in the Marvel/DC universe gets shoe horned together, since stories are limited how much they can change things as part of a regular series.
I agree, why do Superman and Batman have to live in the same world? All these crossovers are just for more nerdgasms from the corefans. To the casual reader it has some novelty value, but detracts from things generally. If you want an ensemble series start that way eg. X-Men. Don't morph into it.
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Old 2011-04-14, 12:18   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irkalla View Post
It's just something about the hero genre that is insanely off-putting with most American comics, not to mention the portrayal of women(in the fridge), I won't even go there. I do like the more artsy stuff, tho. Sandman, Lucifer, Madam Xenadu, Hellblazer, and all the other edgy Vertigo stuff are a good example of what I dig.
I agree with you. Plenty of comics have portrayed women in a poor fashion. Yet, the industry was male dominated for quite awhile. It can't be denied that men likely have a piss poor idea of how to write women other than the way they're seen. However, there are plenty of exceptions to this. Just look at the way they wrote Supergirl in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Her death was the most meaningful out of the entire book. You couldn't help but be saddened and shook over it. She did what her cousin couldn't. She beat the shit out of the Anti-Monitor and allowed the rest of heroes with her at the time to escape. And this was something that devoured a thousand universes and was beating the shit out of everybody up until that point.

I'm gonna be honest, it made me cry! Nothing they've done with Supergirl and her many incarnations has been as good since. The comics industry noticed they were making tons of money with events and that is what they've focused on, bringing us yearly battles of epic proportions. Female characters are not the only ones that have suffered. Superman just completed his retarded walk across America. This bullshit with the emotion spectrum was cool at first, but they need to stop milking it or it will no longer be viable, and all the awesome characters that were created as a result of it's conception will have nothing to stand on.

And Kyle Rayner's girlfriend? It was wretched that they did it. it was cheap shock value. Yet, that death sort of defined the character. He was an artist up until that point, and what a better way to give a character drive than to have some sociopath like Major Force stuff her in a fridge? Just thinking about it gives you chills, doesn't it? God, I don't even like thinking about it. Rest assured though, I agree with you on this mattter.

You know what pisses me off? Emma Frost's portrayal in the Astonishing X-Men series. It's like her spine is crooked or something, or she's incredibly anorexic. Her breasts have nothing to support them. It's like, "LOL OH MY FUCKING GOD, THIS IS A TURN OFF. PERHAPS THEY'RE DOING IT ON PURPOSE TO SHOW US HOW FUCKING TERRIBLE IT IS TO DRAW FEMALE CHARACTERS IN SUCH A MANNER".

Superman and Batman are bros. Why can't they exist in the same universe? They've always be written as such. To take either character out of the mix would be to change the dynamics entirely. It would have to be a continuity wide change. If you put Batman and Superman into different universes, what will have to come next? Green Lantern couldn't be apart of Batman's world either. Non-powered characters wouldn't be able to exist in Superman's world, as the paradigm would shift between what villains and what type of villains could appear. And this is why they exist in each other's worlds. The web is now too intricate to do anything, and there really is no reason to separate the two. It's not as though they don't stand up on their own two feet.

Batman is the man that can take out the demigod we all know and love as Superman. He is the caped crusader, detective extraordinaire. He is in the shadows, and Superman is in the light. Superman is more than just a powerhouse. He is a symbol of all that is good. Batman takes down the psychopaths and somehow maintains his morality despite the fact he lives in a city of baby-killing psychopaths. How could Superman possibly fill that role? To see such sights? Don't you think he would become akin to a mad god? Superman fights the heavy hitters. The ones attacking cities, sentient stars, living super computers, and an amoral scientist/businessman who has a superiority complex that supplies his inferiority complex. Those characters couldn't exist with Batman.

As I said, too intricate of a web. To take one strand out of the web would tarnish the whole. And besides, it's not like Superman pops up in Batman & Robin every issue. They have their own self-contained stories too.

Last edited by delirium; 2011-04-14 at 12:31.
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Old 2011-04-14, 12:26   Link #46
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How are females portrayed negatively in comics again? Are you referring to decades ago, or recent times? There's no doubt they're portrayed in an overly objectified manner, but so are the men in comics (both are made to match "ideal" looks). I really don't see it, unless you want to go back a couple decades. There's more male superheros but there's a pretty sizable amount of female ones too. Note, I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just I haven't really seen many examples myself and would like to hear some.
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Old 2011-04-14, 13:34   Link #47
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
I agree, why do Superman and Batman have to live in the same world? All these crossovers are just for more nerdgasms from the corefans. To the casual reader it has some novelty value, but detracts from things generally. If you want an ensemble series start that way eg. X-Men. Don't morph into it.
As much as Batman and Super man make interesting counter parts to eachother, especially now that they have a history with eachother...I can kinda see what your point here is. Super man is bassically is a god and Batman is a detective. It doesn't make sense for them to operate on the same basis with eachother. It can lead to somewhat silly situations. Like in his regular stories, Batman will have trouble fighting gangsters being lead by a mutant fish man on steroids who can bench press a car. In a superman cross over story he'll go toe to toe with god like entities who can crush civilizations.

Though given the quality stories that have been made due to Batman/Superman crossovers, I won't go so far to say that Batman and Superman should never crossover. I'm just more thinking of the idea that everything in Marvel/DC has to be interconnected in this continuity. The continuity of most of their stories has to be connected to this universe where super heroes in tights run around yet strangely don't fundamentally change the way our world works.


Sure, there are independent stories. And Marvel/DC don't make a point to have EVERYTHING be explicitly interconnected all the time. But this is what the majority of the US comic industry is, so you can't let it go without examination.
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Old 2011-04-14, 14:33   Link #48
Samari
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
I agree, why do Superman and Batman have to live in the same world? All these crossovers are just for more nerdgasms from the corefans. To the casual reader it has some novelty value, but detracts from things generally. If you want an ensemble series start that way eg. X-Men. Don't morph into it.
Why shouldn't they live in the same world? You might as well ask why the X-Men and Spiderman are in the same universe. Or why the Justice League exists. It should be pretty obvious first and foremost though. When you're published by Marvel or DC, you're most likely going to be in the same universe within each company respectively. Batman and Superman originally teamed up years and years ago to boost sales and experiment with intriguing storylines. Some worked, others didn't. But Batman and Superman being the same universe isn't a bad thing. It's not like it's made fans losing interest. It's actually diversified both characters and made them more popular. Both are good contrasts to one another.

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You know what pisses me off? Emma Frost's portrayal in the Astonishing X-Men series. It's like her spine is crooked or something, or she's incredibly anorexic. Her breasts have nothing to support them. It's like, "LOL OH MY FUCKING GOD, THIS IS A TURN OFF. PERHAPS THEY'RE DOING IT ON PURPOSE TO SHOW US HOW FUCKING TERRIBLE IT IS TO DRAW FEMALE CHARACTERS IN SUCH A MANNER".
This is a weird complaint. Who is the artist on Astonishing X-Men right now? Because in a matter of months most likely a different artist will take up the mantle and draw the characters differently. Someone like David Finch isn't going to draw the same way like Frank Miller or Frank Quietly. There are definitely some artists I like and others I don't. Unless it's purposely written in the script for Frost to look a certain way.
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Last edited by Samari; 2011-04-14 at 14:55.
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Old 2011-04-14, 14:41   Link #49
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And eventually people got sick of that kind of thing and the market declined


I'm not denying that things that were stereotypically 90's didn't sell comics at the time. I'm arguing they ultimately weren't sustainable, and they kept allot of new people from expressing interest in the medium. That's certainly was the case with me. I just found to much of the stuff in those 90's comics to ugly to look at. Particularly the weapons.


How many American comics in 91 were drawn like this?

All you said was "what was excellent about the 90's", and I said sales. That was fact. You should have clarified earlier what you're telling me now, which is based on personal preference.

As for your example, it's highly subjective. By the 90's there was pretty good composition in a variety of comics. If it was the 1950's, then no. But by the 90's, things had definitely evolved in the aspect of panel to panel storytelling. Honestly I'd say by the 80's with some artists. Frank Miller and Dave Gibbons are two great examples. That's another thing. It depends on the artists. Obviously the guys at Image or Top Cow were doing things radically different than the guys at DC. So it's highly subjective. And it depends on what the user is into. I mean when how many times in Japanese comics have I had to have seen someone falling on their head due to a dumb statement made by another character? Honestly, I've gotten sick and tired of Japanese motif's like that. I know it doesn't happen in every Japanese comic, but the same thing can be said about certain aspects of American comic books. That includes genre (superheros dominate, but that isn't the only genre), composition, and dialogue respectively.
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Last edited by Samari; 2011-04-14 at 14:56.
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Old 2011-04-14, 16:34   Link #50
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by delirium View Post
Superman and Batman are bros. Why can't they exist in the same universe? They've always be written as such. To take either character out of the mix would be to change the dynamics entirely. It would have to be a continuity wide change. If you put Batman and Superman into different universes, what will have to come next? Green Lantern couldn't be apart of Batman's world either. Non-powered characters wouldn't be able to exist in Superman's world, as the paradigm would shift between what villains and what type of villains could appear. And this is why they exist in each other's worlds. The web is now too intricate to do anything, and there really is no reason to separate the two. It's not as though they don't stand up on their own two feet.

Batman is the man that can take out the demigod we all know and love as Superman. He is the caped crusader, detective extraordinaire. He is in the shadows, and Superman is in the light. Superman is more than just a powerhouse. He is a symbol of all that is good. Batman takes down the psychopaths and somehow maintains his morality despite the fact he lives in a city of baby-killing psychopaths. How could Superman possibly fill that role? To see such sights? Don't you think he would become akin to a mad god? Superman fights the heavy hitters. The ones attacking cities, sentient stars, living super computers, and an amoral scientist/businessman who has a superiority complex that supplies his inferiority complex. Those characters couldn't exist with Batman.

As I said, too intricate of a web. To take one strand out of the web would tarnish the whole. And besides, it's not like Superman pops up in Batman & Robin every issue. They have their own self-contained stories too.
I used Superman and Batman as an example more then anything else, but I'll go with it.

To the vast majority of casual viewers Superman and Batman are in seperate Universes. Every majorly succesful franchise involving them (remembering that in previous stats syndication makes DC more money then comics) has featured them seperately. They never interact, think Cartoon and TV series and films. And they occupy utterly different universes. As you said batman is depressing psychopaths in a gritty modern city. Superman is an idealistic hero in a gleaming Metropolis. mixing them together is unnecessary, and causes all kinds of weird questions. For instance Superman is nigh-invincible and often shown to save people all over the world. Why doesn't he save people in Gotham City. Now obviously DC came up with some round-about explanation, but it's all silly and most people outside the comics crowd also regard it as silly.

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Why shouldn't they live in the same world? You might as well ask why the X-Men and Spiderman are in the same universe. Or why the Justice League exists. It should be pretty obvious first and foremost though. When you're published by Marvel or DC, you're most likely going to be in the same universe within each company respectively. Batman and Superman originally teamed up years and years ago to boost sales and experiment with intriguing storylines. Some worked, others didn't. But Batman and Superman being the same universe isn't a bad thing. It's not like it's made fans losing interest. It's actually diversified both characters and made them more popular. Both are good contrasts to one another.
I think Marvel crossovers are as bad as DC crossovers. They all feel rather silly, particular to the casual viewer. It does not rake in more readers either. It just mines the same group more by encouraging them to read other lines of comics(you like X-men, maybe you'll like Spiderman too?). And Crossovers have only really proliferated widely in the last 40 years, the same time that Comics sales have also been declining. I'm not saying one causes the other, but certainly indicates that Crossovers don't produce greater popularity for their franchise.

And again, Batman and Superman work much better as seperate universes. When you merge all your universes together suddenly you have to start obeying the continuity of all the others.

And Batman and Superman don't need to be diversified, they work best as who they are, for audiences of all ages. If you want a more complicated story and characters then they should write something new, like Watchmen. They can even go so far as to have them be clear expies, Batman and Superman in all but name, and explore the themes you want that way. And whatever happens in that story won't interfer with people's enjoyment of the main comics either. Otherwise you're just creating lockout for future fans (I see the length of the page on any Marvel/DC character on the wikipedia and immediately bolt).

Consider it this way, how absurd would it be if Naruto suddenly appeared for a sustained period in Bleach, or the One Piece crew in Toriko (oh wai-).
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Old 2011-04-14, 16:38   Link #51
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^I'm guessing you don't like the Justice League, then. I consider myself a casual fan more than anything, and I like seeing the superheroes working together. So I think your analysis is more personal than applicable to any group of people.
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Old 2011-04-14, 16:53   Link #52
Samari
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I used Superman and Batman as an example more then anything else, but I'll go with it.

To the vast majority of casual viewers Superman and Batman are in seperate Universes. Every majorly succesful franchise involving them (remembering that in previous stats syndication makes DC more money then comics) has featured them seperately. They never interact, think Cartoon and TV series and films. And they occupy utterly different universes. As you said batman is depressing psychopaths in a gritty modern city. Superman is an idealistic hero in a gleaming Metropolis. mixing them together is unnecessary, and causes all kinds of weird questions. For instance Superman is nigh-invincible and often shown to save people all over the world. Why doesn't he save people in Gotham City. Now obviously DC came up with some round-about explanation, but it's all silly and most people outside the comics crowd also regard it as silly.
Okay you're talking about two different things here. The composition of how the stories of each character are told, and the characters themselves. Batman is in a dark and gritty environment because it suits his character. Superman is a in a bright city because it suits his character. Obviously. That doesn't mean that either character can't interact with one another successfully. It's been done time and time again so that assumption is false.


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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
I think Marvel crossovers are as bad as DC crossovers. They all feel rather silly, particular to the casual viewer. It does not rake in more readers either. It just mines the same group more by encouraging them to read other lines of comics(you like X-men, maybe you'll like Spiderman too?). And Crossovers have only really proliferated widely in the last 40 years, the same time that Comics sales have also been declining. I'm not saying one causes the other, but certainly indicates that Crossovers don't produce greater popularity for their franchise.
I think both crossovers are great. Having all the characters in the same universe isn't a bad thing/silly like you're trying to make it out to be. If you don't like it that's fine, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

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And again, Batman and Superman work much better as seperate universes. When you merge all your universes together suddenly you have to start obeying the continuity of all the others.
Says who?

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^I'm guessing you don't like the Justice League, then. I consider myself a casual fan more than anything, and I like seeing the superheroes working together. So I think your analysis is more personal than applicable to any group of people.
Word. I think all of these characters were meant to be in the same universe in the first place. So that's why it's not so radical...and why no one ever questions it. Well, almost no one.
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Old 2011-04-14, 17:01   Link #53
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This is a weird complaint. Who is the artist on Astonishing X-Men right now? Because in a matter of months most likely a different artist will take up the mantle and draw the characters differently. Someone like David Finch isn't going to draw the same way like Frank Miller or Frank Quietly. There are definitely some artists I like and others I don't. Unless it's purposely written in the script for Frost to look a certain way.
Hmmmm

That's actually another thing I don't like. It's kinda annoying to pick up a series because I like the story and artstyle, only to have the artist I liked get replaced with someone else.

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As for your example, it's highly subjective. By the 90's there was pretty good composition in a variety of comics. If it was the 1950's, then no. But by the 90's, things had definitely evolved in the aspect of panel to panel storytelling. Honestly I'd say by the 80's with some artists. Frank Miller and Dave Gibbons are two great examples. That's another thing. It depends on the artists. Obviously the guys at Image or Top Cow were doing things radically different than the guys at DC. So it's highly subjective. And it depends on what the user is into. I mean when how many times in Japanese comics have I had to have seen someone falling on their head due to a dumb statement made by another character? Honestly, I've gotten sick and tired of Japanese motif's like that. I know it doesn't happen in every Japanese comic, but the same thing can be said about certain aspects of American comic books. That includes genre (superheros dominate, but that isn't the only genre), composition, and dialogue respectively.
Those are all quite annoying aspects of Japanese comics.


Though I still stand behind my point that there seem to be more Japanese comics dedicated to high detail weapons/mechanical porn than in the USA.

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Okay you're talking about two different things here. The composition of how the stories of each character are told, and the characters themselves. Batman is in a dark and gritty environment because it suits his character. Superman is a in a bright city because it suits his character. Obviously. That doesn't mean that either character can't interact with one another successfully. It's been done time and time again so that assumption is false.
I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that Batman and Superman crossovers don't annoy me. (the movie event for the Bruce Timm DC series where Batman/Superman teamed up against Luthor/Joker was incredibly awesome).

But I'll repeat some two cents I did have previously. It DOES seem a bit off that Batman can go toe to toe in battling the demigod level beings with hyper strength and intellect that Superman tussles with, then have trouble dealing with street thugs in Gotham.
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Old 2011-04-14, 17:05   Link #54
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Dark Horse Comics does Star Wars which tends towards weapons from time to time. Were else will you get a Super Star Destroyer that is armed with a planet craking Superlaser? Or heavily mechanized armies mixed with people using swords made out of light?
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Old 2011-04-14, 18:53   Link #55
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To everyone arguing against crossovers:

Kindom Come is a thing
Crisis on Infinite Earths is a thing
Justice League International is a thing
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Old 2011-04-14, 19:04   Link #56
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Dark Horse Comics does Star Wars which tends towards weapons from time to time. Were else will you get a Super Star Destroyer that is armed with a planet craking Superlaser? Or heavily mechanized armies mixed with people using swords made out of light?
I actually remember picking up a couple of issues of Star Wars Empire dealing with an Imperial unit fighting off a bunch of native aliens on this jungle planet.

The issues that dealt with that were very good.
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Old 2011-04-14, 19:05   Link #57
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This is very much a minor point, but on Batman/Superman...

I've long felt that Bruce Wayne should have a specialized high-tech light armor version of the Batsuit that he brings out whenever he's on Justice League missions, or clashing with Superman-level foes. We could say that this specialized high-tech light armor allows Batman to hit with superstrength-level punches.

But when going on his nightly patrols of Gotham, Batman uses the old basic batsuit. We could say that he does this because the old basic batsuit gives him slightly more flexibility in movement, while also making it less likely that he accidentally kills a thug he's trying to capture.


There, you'd solve the very real issues with non-metahuman Bruce Wayne operating with a being of Superman's power.
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Old 2011-04-14, 19:14   Link #58
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Okay you're talking about two different things here. The composition of how the stories of each character are told, and the characters themselves. Batman is in a dark and gritty environment because it suits his character. Superman is a in a bright city because it suits his character. Obviously. That doesn't mean that either character can't interact with one another successfully. It's been done time and time again so that assumption is false.
Indeed, the setting suits the tone of the story. When you mix two stories with radically different tones the results are schizophrenic. And it's even worse with fantasy as then you get logical inconsistencies. For instance the existence of superman renders all other superheroes as unnessecary, and more. With Marvel why doesn't Spiderman get labelled as a mutant the way the X-men do? Where are all the Mutants in Spider-man's new york if they're so common in X-men (common enough to be discriminated against) etc.

And crossovers are not, on the whole, succesful. They only appeal to die hard fans (like Moe with Otaku). The mainstream public (who enjoy their super-hero movies perfectly well) thinks they're on the same scale as Flintstones meets Jetsons episodes. They fail to bring new blood into the medium, and in fact only serve to put people off (as they're often ridiculous, just read the description for Crisis on Infinite Earths, it's ridiculous).



Quote:
Says who?
Says me (I'm on teh internetz, my word is truth ), but more seriously this is the general perception. Most people are very happy with Batman fighting the Joker etc. When you suddenly cross them over you are creating an entirely different story. Suddenly Batman isn't a lone vigilante in a rotten city, but part of a "Justice league", which is, to be honest, far more corny.

Quote:
Word. I think all of these characters were meant to be in the same universe in the first place. So that's why it's not so radical...and why no one ever questions it. Well, almost no one.
Everyone outside comicbook fandom doesn't even know it! And if they did they'd highly question it, or laugh at the concept. now as for original intentions I don't think they were originally intended to be in the same universe at all. I think it was originally a marketing tool to get people from one series reading, interested in others. Otherwise most series maintain independence from others.

The other big problem with all this crossovering are all the continuity issues, and the ridiculous storytelling hoops they go through to try and resolve them (EG Crisis on infinite earths...)

Now I will give a disclaimer that I've never really read superhero comics, mostly was interested through the TV shows, which generally always maintained series independence (and I think were better for it). But I've always been put off by the whole crossover and continuity thing. I'm part of a potential readership that they're failing to tap, through reasons I have elaborated on above.

I'm not saying that Crossovers are inherently bad, but they do only appeal to the most ardent of fans, which I will never be.
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Old 2011-04-14, 19:48   Link #59
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I'm pretty positive that most casual fans know that Superman and Batman are in the same universe.

It's not like Superman and Batman crossed for the first time in the Justice League (which is considered one of the best American animated series of all-time and not something I consider corny personally). Batman popped up on Superman: TAS multiple times and vice versa for Superman in every Batman series in existence to the point that they just combined them. And they were on the Superfriends together!

You can't even call someone a casual fan if they've managed to miss all that.

Last edited by Dilla; 2011-04-14 at 20:17.
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Old 2011-04-14, 20:03   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
Says me (I'm on teh internetz, my word is truth ), but more seriously this is the general perception. Most people are very happy with Batman fighting the Joker etc. When you suddenly cross them over you are creating an entirely different story. Suddenly Batman isn't a lone vigilante in a rotten city, but part of a "Justice league", which is, to be honest, far more corny.
In Final Crisis and Morrison's Batman epic Batman fought Darkseid god of the planet Apokolips he then was killed and had to travel through time to get back to the present

it was one of the most popular batman titles in years

the fans clearly don't care about Batman being a lone vigilante who doesn't associate with any other heros
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