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Old 2011-04-14, 20:16   Link #61
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
I'm pretty positive that most casual fans know that Superman and Batman are in the same universe.

It's not like Superman and Batman crossed for the first time in the Justice League (which is considered one of the best American animated series of all-time and not something I consider corny personally) to the point that they just combined them. Batman popped up on Superman: TAS multiple times and vice versa for Superman in every Batman series in existence. And they were on the Superfriends together!

You can't even call someone a casual fan if they've managed to miss all that.
I didn't watch every episode in existence (and I was like 7), so forgive me!

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Originally Posted by scraggy View Post
In Final Crisis and Morrison's Batman epic Batman fought Darkseid god of the planet Apokolips he then was killed and had to travel through time to get back to the present

it was one of the most popular batman titles in years

the fans clearly don't care about Batman being a lone vigilante who doesn't associate with any other heros
It appealed to the fans, sure, did it appeal to everyone else. Bear in mind that sales from American comics have been on the decline for the last 40 years, at least.

American Comics are not succesful at the moment, due to a lack of mass appeal. I think Crossovers are a part of that. All of you say you (as fans) liked it, but none of these things you point to are really well known outside the fandom. The challenge for american comics is to sell outside the fandom, which they have not succeeded at since their highs in the 40s and 50s when comics magazines had circulations in the millions.
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Old 2011-04-14, 20:32   Link #62
Ithekro
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Considering the Justice League of America can be traced back to 1960, and the earlier Justice Society of America to 1940, I'm not sure the arguement about crossovers is relevant anymore. They've been doing it of over 70 years.
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Old 2011-04-14, 20:33   Link #63
Dilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
I didn't watch every episode in existence (and I was like 7), so forgive me!
Oh come on dude, no need to get snarky. I 'm not trying to make you look bad or anything.

I don't really read comics and I haven't watched every episode either, so I am a casual fan (like you, I assume). You don't need to have watched every episode to have seen them together. The Batman/Superman Adventures and were on Kids' WB when Saturday Morning Cartoons were still popular, and it was on the after-school block from 1997 to at least 2000, both slots during the same period. It was also on Toonami on Cartoon Network for a period of time. The Super Friends started in 1973 and had re-runs on children's programming all throughout the 80s and to finish it off, was on Toonami from 1998 to 2000 or so.

Every single one was targeted at kids, not ardent fans.

With how often they've been on together, people don't need to have watched every episode of every series to have seen them interact.

If you're talking about the movies. . .okay, but referring to the cartoons, I just can't buy that most casual fans don't know that they are in the same universe, at least not in the US.

Last edited by Dilla; 2011-04-14 at 23:14.
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Old 2011-04-14, 20:37   Link #64
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post

I'm not saying that Crossovers are inherently bad, but they do only appeal to the most ardent of fans, which I will never be.
So my earlier response to your post just kinda doesn't count then? I'm not an ardent fan at all and I love crossovers. Thus, your statement is untrue by default. You're free to dislike crossovers - hell, it's a pretty minor little thing. But your opinion doesn't represent every casual fan. Personally, I think it makes sense for these heroes to be in the same universe. A world of heroes and villains filled with fantastical powers, sci-fi tech, magic wielders, etc, makes more sense to me than a regular world with one random super-person and another seemingly random pantheon of super-villains. In a world of heroes and villains, the individual players actually have some context. If they're each in their separate world, they lose that.

Now, that's just my take, don't know how many ardent or casual fans feel similarly but there you have it.
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Old 2011-04-14, 23:58   Link #65
Samari
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post


Everyone outside comicbook fandom doesn't even know it! And if they did they'd highly question it, or laugh at the concept. now as for original intentions I don't think they were originally intended to be in the same universe at all. I think it was originally a marketing tool to get people from one series reading, interested in others. Otherwise most series maintain independence from others.

The other big problem with all this crossovering are all the continuity issues, and the ridiculous storytelling hoops they go through to try and resolve them (EG Crisis on infinite earths...)

Now I will give a disclaimer that I've never really read superhero comics, mostly was interested through the TV shows, which generally always maintained series independence (and I think were better for it). But I've always been put off by the whole crossover and continuity thing. I'm part of a potential readership that they're failing to tap, through reasons I have elaborated on above.

I'm not saying that Crossovers are inherently bad, but they do only appeal to the most ardent of fans, which I will never be.
What are you talking about? Cartoons and various media other than comic books have had "team ups" like the JLA or X-Men/Spiderman. Just because one doesn't read comic books doesn't mean that they don't know that these heroes have teamed up together. Superfriends/whatever they call it now has run in various incarnations for years and there has never been a huge outcry that it's been ridiculous. Or else the cartoons, games, toys, whatever wouldn't even being made within the same universe. You're assuming everyone shares the same disdain for American comic book ideology as you do. They don't. Last time I checked a lot of people were looking forward to the Avengers movie that's about to come out and I don't recall there being a consensus opinion that the idea is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post


It appealed to the fans, sure, did it appeal to everyone else. Bear in mind that sales from American comics have been on the decline for the last 40 years, at least.

American Comics are not succesful at the moment, due to a lack of mass appeal. I think Crossovers are a part of that. All of you say you (as fans) liked it, but none of these things you point to are really well known outside the fandom. The challenge for american comics is to sell outside the fandom, which they have not succeeded at since their highs in the 40s and 50s when comics magazines had circulations in the millions.
No, sales in the early 90's for comic books skyrocketed. Soon after there was a big market crash. So you could say the last twenty. But this would be obvious due to the rise of things like the internet and video games. Crossovers don't really have anything to do with it. There are simply more interesting things on Earth to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Considering the Justice League of America can be traced back to 1960, and the earlier Justice Society of America to 1940, I'm not sure the arguement about crossovers is relevant anymore. They've been doing it of over 70 years.
Exactly. And some of the most successful stories in the history of comic books have occurred with all of these characters being in the same universe. A lot of characters may not have even lasted this long if it wasn't because of crossing over. The Hulk got canceled after his first six issues. Imagine if he wasn't brought over to the Avengers?
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Old 2011-04-15, 00:19   Link #66
Dilla
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I just leave this here:



Started in 1941 and didn't end until 1986. So yeah, the idea that crossovers were a desperate attempt to maintain popularity is bullpoo. It's been in the industry in the beginning.
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Old 2011-04-15, 06:03   Link #67
Roger Rambo
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Wow. Comics used to be really cheap
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Old 2011-04-15, 07:27   Link #68
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
Oh come on dude, no need to get snarky. I 'm not trying to make you look bad or anything.

I don't really read comics and I haven't watched every episode either, so I am a casual fan (like you, I assume). You don't need to have watched every episode to have seen them together. The Batman/Superman Adventures and were on Kids' WB when Saturday Morning Cartoons were still popular, and it was on the after-school block from 1997 to at least 2000, both slots during the same period. It was also on Toonami on Cartoon Network for a period of time. The Super Friends started in 1973 and had re-runs on children's programming all throughout the 80s and to finish it off, was on Toonami from 1998 to 2000 or so.

Every single one was targeted at kids, not ardent fans.

With how often they've been on together, people don't need to have watched every episode of every series to have seen them interact.

If you're talking about the movies. . .okay, but referring to the cartoons, I just can't buy that most casual fans don't know that they are in the same universe, at least not in the US.
I don't live in the USA. I don't remember any crossovers ever airing in Ireland, except maybe the occasional special. We had Lois and Clarke, X-Men, Batman: The Animated Series, and Superman: The Animated Series, and probably some others I'm forgetting. But we don't get the large volume of material you get in the USA.

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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
So my earlier response to your post just kinda doesn't count then? I'm not an ardent fan at all and I love crossovers. Thus, your statement is untrue by default. You're free to dislike crossovers - hell, it's a pretty minor little thing. But your opinion doesn't represent every casual fan. Personally, I think it makes sense for these heroes to be in the same universe. A world of heroes and villains filled with fantastical powers, sci-fi tech, magic wielders, etc, makes more sense to me than a regular world with one random super-person and another seemingly random pantheon of super-villains. In a world of heroes and villains, the individual players actually have some context. If they're each in their separate world, they lose that.

Now, that's just my take, don't know how many ardent or casual fans feel similarly but there you have it.
I'm mostly talking about the consensus as I see it. I could easily be wrong. I don't always get out much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samari View Post
What are you talking about? Cartoons and various media other than comic books have had "team ups" like the JLA or X-Men/Spiderman. Just because one doesn't read comic books doesn't mean that they don't know that these heroes have teamed up together. Superfriends/whatever they call it now has run in various incarnations for years and there has never been a huge outcry that it's been ridiculous. Or else the cartoons, games, toys, whatever wouldn't even being made within the same universe. You're assuming everyone shares the same disdain for American comic book ideology as you do. They don't. Last time I checked a lot of people were looking forward to the Avengers movie that's about to come out and I don't recall there being a consensus opinion that the idea is ridiculous.
The idea in itself is not inherently ridiculous (it really depends on the nature of the works crossed over). But all the continuity problems that crossovers cause are what I'm talking about.

Quote:
No, sales in the early 90's for comic books skyrocketed. Soon after there was a big market crash. So you could say the last twenty. But this would be obvious due to the rise of things like the internet and video games. Crossovers don't really have anything to do with it. There are simply more interesting things on Earth to do.
How much of that rise in sales was due to speculation over comic books being "collector's items" and having an exagerated value for selling later? The internet didn't kill Manga, and I don't think it killed American Comics either. It may have played a role, but more in the sense that American Comics priced themselves out of the mass-market while Games etc. provided a cheaper alternative form of entertainment (bang for your buck wise. A game can last a kid over a month, a comic an afternoon)

My personal feeling is that the use of crossovers makes it much more difficult for authors to create a cohesive story with a beginning, middle and end. Instead we have one big franchise, and one part being bad easily compromises the value of the whole.

However I don't think I am really the type of person Super-Hero Comics are aimed at. Similiarly I find most shonen Jump quite dull as well (shonen jump being the closest equivalent in Manga).

But shonen Jump is clearly more succesful then Marvel or DC, it's managed to retain it's core demographic, and has a circulation of almost 3 Million!

I don't want the thread to be derailed by too much focus on Crossovers, they're obviously something where your mileage may vary. But clearly Marvel and DC have done something wrong to have sales as low as they are, when in other countries comics are still going strong.

My personal opinion is that Marvel and DC abandoned the youth demographic that made them succesful in the first place. The average kid no longer buys comics books anymore. This was a serious mistake. Now I see nothing wrong with having comics with mature themes, but the correct way to so would have been to maintain their youth oriented magazines and produce other magazines in tandem that would appeal to older readers. Without the magazines aimed at young kids it's much more difficult to bring new fans into the medium. Instead they're chasing an ever shrinking aging group. The movies are somewhat succesful in bringing new fans in, but these are also making the same mistake of largely being aimed at adults. The cartoon series do somewhat succeed, but how many of those kids actually go out to buy comic books based on the TV show? Furthermore (at least where I am), you can only buy such comics in a specialist store. You can't pick up the latest copy at your local petrol station or news agent.

I don't think Marvel and DC deserve all the blame, as I said earlier there are other american comic book publishers. But considering the general perception that "comic books are for kids" there's a remarkeable lack of comic books that can actually be read by kids. Because of this we're now getting the even more negative "Comic books are for sweaty nerds". I think to bring back Comics to their former glory their needs to be massmarket comics available for kids to read. And as those kids grow older they should be able to graduate to more mature fair as they wish. But the original kids stuff shouldn't dissapear.
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Old 2011-04-15, 11:28   Link #69
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While I agree that comic companies should market towards children more, because of their mass market towards adults comics have been more accepted as an art form.

Back in the silver age comics were all for kids and campy as shit, except for a few notable underground comics. They were good! They were fun! But they didn't really have any deeper value. Sure that's not necessary for everything, some good fun is great every now and then, but when it overtakes the market it brings down the value of anything else. The comics being released nowadays are actually much better than those released 40-60 years ago. Sure the best ones came out in the mid-80s but there are still some great writers out there (Morrison has been writing the same epic story SINCE the 80's).
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:02   Link #70
Roger Rambo
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I've always had mixed feeling about trying to make super hero comics *serious*. Mainly to do with suspension of disbelief. When your average silver age comic involves wacky Justice League style antics, the viewer/reader is completely disinclined to consider the absurdity of the premise of the scenarios involved.

Start adding serious story lines, grim realism and you run into a problem. You're trying to have serious story lines in a universe that's inherently unrealistic. Marvel/DC are universes where it's normal for guys wearing spandex tights to fly around fighting each other with death ray vision. Now the unrealistic element isn't necessarily individuals with various kinds of super powers/abilities. That's a fantastic element. The unrealistic element that a world being full of super natural/ultra high tech elements, is that the effect these things would have on the world isn't contemplated.

Take the Joker for example. The Joker/Batman conflict is often used to make serious points that are supposed to make the viewer think (such as should villains like the Joker be killed). Yet at the same time we're supposed to suspend our disbelief with regards to the fact that no authorities are going to try to imprison and unimprisonable mass murderer whose killed thousands. The entire premise is wacky*.


*This was a major reason, why when I was watching the Bruce Tim Batman/Super series, I always found the Superman/Lex Luthor conflict more intriguing than Joker/Batman. Luthor isn't a suicidally disturbed maniac incapable of putting up a facade of normalcy. He's a respected corporate executive who protects himself by working through pawns. Superman, nor anybody else can go after Luthor since he's not a vigilante going against the system. He is the system.

It's a much more interesting commentary about the nature of justice that a monstrous man like Luthor can't be struck down because of the facade he puts up, than a monstrous man like the Joker who wears no disguise yet doesn't get put down.
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:11   Link #71
Ithekro
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Considering how long people in real life go on death row (upwards of 30 years in some cases), and that it is illegal to use the death penalty in some states....yeah the Joker could be around for a long time. Arkham was a correctional institute if I recall correctly and the Joker was considered insane (well he is). If he'd been taken in before becoming the Joker he probably would have gotten a normal jail sentance rather than Arkham. Arkham being "easy" to escape from or the easy to convince people you are sane now is a different problem within the realism.

That the police don't manage to use deadly force against the Joker is something else. That the Batman doesn't use deadly force is one of his "weaknesses", or virtue, depending on your point of view.
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:30   Link #72
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Considering how long people in real life go on death row (upwards of 30 years in some cases), and that it is illegal to use the death penalty in some states....yeah the Joker could be around for a long time.
Except Joker wouldn't get a death penalty in court. The government have an executive order signed for his death warrant as a matter of national security.
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Arkham was a correctional institute if I recall correctly and the Joker was considered insane (well he is). If he'd been taken in before becoming the Joker he probably would have gotten a normal jail sentance rather than Arkham. Arkham being "easy" to escape from or the easy to convince people you are sane now is a different problem within the realism.
Well that falls under the whole shenanigans of the writers not understanding how the insanity defense works (You can be loony as a fruit bat, but they can still execute you as long as you understood the illegality of your actions). But even that is irrelevant when you get an individual with as high of a body count as joker.
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
That the police don't manage to use deadly force against the Joker is something else. That the Batman doesn't use deadly force is one of his "weaknesses", or virtue, depending on your point of view.
That's the thing. In a realistic scenario whether or not Batman thinks killing the Joker is irrelevant. Because in the hands of the authorities he's going to die. Either from someone taking initiative and plugging him, or a government hit squad murdering him extra judicially.
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Old 2011-04-15, 16:48   Link #73
Samari
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post

The idea in itself is not inherently ridiculous (it really depends on the nature of the works crossed over). But all the continuity problems that crossovers cause are what I'm talking about.
If the continuity issues is the only thing that you're raving about as a justification that crossovers are not a good idea, then you need to take another look. Some continuity issues are expected to have happened over a medium that has been around for almost 100 years and has evolved in the process. But to axe out crossovers entirely to preserve continuity issues (which can be resolved down the line and has been before) is a terrible idea in my opinion. Some of the most important superheros in history wouldn't have gained more exposure if it weren't for the idea of crossovers. Having every single character made by the same company exist in their own universe would get boring. Maybe that works in Japan where every series has a vastly different universe that works differently, but it wouldn't work here where every characters exists on the same planet with the same social issues that everyone can relate to. It wouldn't make sense not to do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
How much of that rise in sales was due to speculation over comic books being "collector's items" and having an exagerated value for selling later? The internet didn't kill Manga, and I don't think it killed American Comics either. It may have played a role, but more in the sense that American Comics priced themselves out of the mass-market while Games etc. provided a cheaper alternative form of entertainment (bang for your buck wise. A game can last a kid over a month, a comic an afternoon)
Does it matter? I just proved your assumptions that comic sales have been declining for the last 40 years completely incorrect. And the internet did kill the comic industry just like video games did. Unlike Japan, America had big movies and television around the time that comic book started getting really popular. And the main genre for a long time was super heroes because most of the books were aimed at children with that premise for the majority of the American comic book's existence. There was no need for sub-genres because America had access to television and movies. Since the American comic book genre has been so one dimensional, it's really had to fight an uphill battle with now much more bigger movies and video games around (America is still the king in the movie industry), not to mention the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
My personal feeling is that the use of crossovers makes it much more difficult for authors to create a cohesive story with a beginning, middle and end. Instead we have one big franchise, and one part being bad easily compromises the value of the whole.

Not really. Great crossover stories have been done for years and years by various writers. If you feel that way, so be it.

However I don't think I am really the type of person Super-Hero Comics are aimed at. Similiarly I find most shonen Jump quite dull as well (shonen jump being the closest equivalent in Manga).

But shonen Jump is clearly more succesful then Marvel or DC, it's managed to retain it's core demographic, and has a circulation of almost 3 Million!

I don't want the thread to be derailed by too much focus on Crossovers, they're obviously something where your mileage may vary. But clearly Marvel and DC have done something wrong to have sales as low as they are, when in other countries comics are still going strong.

My personal opinion is that Marvel and DC abandoned the youth demographic that made them succesful in the first place. The average kid no longer buys comics books anymore. This was a serious mistake. Now I see nothing wrong with having comics with mature themes, but the correct way to so would have been to maintain their youth oriented magazines and produce other magazines in tandem that would appeal to older readers. Without the magazines aimed at young kids it's much more difficult to bring new fans into the medium. Instead they're chasing an ever shrinking aging group. The movies are somewhat succesful in bringing new fans in, but these are also making the same mistake of largely being aimed at adults. The cartoon series do somewhat succeed, but how many of those kids actually go out to buy comic books based on the TV show? Furthermore (at least where I am), you can only buy such comics in a specialist store. You can't pick up the latest copy at your local petrol station or news agent.

I don't think Marvel and DC deserve all the blame, as I said earlier there are other american comic book publishers. But considering the general perception that "comic books are for kids" there's a remarkeable lack of comic books that can actually be read by kids. Because of this we're now getting the even more negative "Comic books are for sweaty nerds". I think to bring back Comics to their former glory their needs to be massmarket comics available for kids to read. And as those kids grow older they should be able to graduate to more mature fair as they wish. But the original kids stuff shouldn't dissapear.
Japanese manga has been embedded in Japanese culture to a huge degree. Everywhere you go in Japan there is a little anime character on every widely distributed product practically. That's what manga constantly sells. That has never been the case with Americans, who have had movies and television to turn to for a long time. Japan never had that. And comic books were always aimed at younger readers for a long time with one main genre, but like a lot of other folks, they grew up. The industry that is. You really think of comic books maintained their child-like persona that more kids would buy that and not pick up the video games and play on the internet instead? I highly doubt it. And then you would lose your adult audience. So it's a double edged sword.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I've always had mixed feeling about trying to make super hero comics *serious*. Mainly to do with suspension of disbelief. When your average silver age comic involves wacky Justice League style antics, the viewer/reader is completely disinclined to consider the absurdity of the premise of the scenarios involved.

Start adding serious story lines, grim realism and you run into a problem. You're trying to have serious story lines in a universe that's inherently unrealistic. Marvel/DC are universes where it's normal for guys wearing spandex tights to fly around fighting each other with death ray vision. Now the unrealistic element isn't necessarily individuals with various kinds of super powers/abilities. That's a fantastic element. The unrealistic element that a world being full of super natural/ultra high tech elements, is that the effect these things would have on the world isn't contemplated.

Take the Joker for example. The Joker/Batman conflict is often used to make serious points that are supposed to make the viewer think (such as should villains like the Joker be killed). Yet at the same time we're supposed to suspend our disbelief with regards to the fact that no authorities are going to try to imprison and unimprisonable mass murderer whose killed thousands. The entire premise is wacky*.


*This was a major reason, why when I was watching the Bruce Tim Batman/Super series, I always found the Superman/Lex Luthor conflict more intriguing than Joker/Batman. Luthor isn't a suicidally disturbed maniac incapable of putting up a facade of normalcy. He's a respected corporate executive who protects himself by working through pawns. Superman, nor anybody else can go after Luthor since he's not a vigilante going against the system. He is the system.

It's a much more interesting commentary about the nature of justice that a monstrous man like Luthor can't be struck down because of the facade he puts up, than a monstrous man like the Joker who wears no disguise yet doesn't get put down.
Every comic book that has been widely popular...whether or not it's manga or American, has had a bit of the absurd in it. You should know that before you pick up the book. When you start questioning "well that wouldn't happen", well obviously it's a fabricated story with certain rules you just have to accept. I never questioned why Son Goku wore his gi every single day when I was reading Dragonball.
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Old 2011-04-15, 16:59   Link #74
Ithekro
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Consider that the guys making the comics and cartoons in the 1990s were fanboys of stuff made in the 1960s who may have been fanboys of stuff made in the 1940s. We are on third or fourth generations of comic book artists and writers.
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Old 2011-04-15, 18:08   Link #75
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samari View Post
Does it matter? I just proved your assumptions that comic sales have been declining for the last 40 years completely incorrect. And the internet did kill the comic industry just like video games did. Unlike Japan, America had big movies and television around the time that comic book started getting really popular. And the main genre for a long time was super heroes because most of the books were aimed at children with that premise for the majority of the American comic book's existence. There was no need for sub-genres because America had access to television and movies. Since the American comic book genre has been so one dimensional, it's really had to fight an uphill battle with now much more bigger movies and video games around (America is still the king in the movie industry), not to mention the internet.
Japanese have television and movies too. They're one of the larger markets world wide for such things. Manga has lots of competition, just as much as in the US. For instance 2 of the big 3 console manufacturers are Japanese! Japan has a higher rate of internet uptake then the USA, Japan gets all the movies that the US gets. Japan gets plenty of high quality television too (*hint* you have a hobby of watching the animated variety...)

Quote:
Japanese manga has been embedded in Japanese culture to a huge degree. Everywhere you go in Japan there is a little anime character on every widely distributed product practically. That's what manga constantly sells. That has never been the case with Americans, who have had movies and television to turn to for a long time. Japan never had that. And comic books were always aimed at younger readers for a long time with one main genre, but like a lot of other folks, they grew up. The industry that is. You really think of comic books maintained their child-like persona that more kids would buy that and not pick up the video games and play on the internet instead? I highly doubt it. And then you would lose your adult audience. So it's a double edged sword.
Japan's comic culture is far younger then that of the US, and only started to any degree in the 60s and 70s. Clearly the Manga companies were succesful at making their product iconic in that time. Meanwhile American comic icons faded from their position.

And does having comics aimed at kids preclude you from having comics aimed at adults? No it does not. You can have kids comics and Adult comics. Certainly there's children's literature AND adult literature?

As a child I read every comic I ever could find. But the only comics I ever came across were Asterix and Obelix at my local Library(still love to this day), so I did not grow up reading comics on the whole. If I could have bought cheap comics from the news agent I would have done so. Also kids don't have that much control over their spending, it's their parents that control it. If their parents see a mild kids oriented Comic, they might very well buy it over the expensive video game system +games. In fact Kids are one of the easiest markets to tap because they'll enjoy almost anything. Considering the number of kid's eyeballs that were glued to Batman or Spiderman on TV, DC utterly failed to harness that to push up their sales in the kids demographic that was actually watching it.
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Old 2011-04-15, 18:16   Link #76
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Probably because they wanted the teenage bracket that might have more say in spending dollars. They may have changed that model as from what I've heard the newer Batman cartoon is more camp than the one from the 1990s.
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Old 2011-04-15, 20:37   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
*This was a major reason, why when I was watching the Bruce Tim Batman/Super series, I always found the Superman/Lex Luthor conflict more intriguing than Joker/Batman. Luthor isn't a suicidally disturbed maniac incapable of putting up a facade of normalcy. He's a respected corporate executive who protects himself by working through pawns. Superman, nor anybody else can go after Luthor since he's not a vigilante going against the system. He is the system.
I'm not going to argue this point because Luthor is actually my favorite villain of all time, BUT I do believe superhero comics can be used to make serious points, classics like DKR, Watchmen, and Kingdom Come are fine examples (I've written a lot on this subject), because superheroes are inherently idealized versions of ourselves, and pure caricatures of different people who can easily be used to make a point, and i'm not pointing any fingers, but because of the sort of generic characters marvel produces (really? another angsty teen with powers?) they aren't able to do that as much as D.C. is with the characters it idealized in the Silver Age, corrupted in the Bronze Age, and dug into in the Modern Age.
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Old 2011-04-15, 22:59   Link #78
Samari
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
Japanese have television and movies too. They're one of the larger markets world wide for such things. Manga has lots of competition, just as much as in the US. For instance 2 of the big 3 console manufacturers are Japanese! Japan has a higher rate of internet uptake then the USA, Japan gets all the movies that the US gets. Japan gets plenty of high quality television too (*hint* you have a hobby of watching the animated variety...)
I never said that Japan didn't have television or movies. But years and years ago Americans had access to the most popular and entertaining forms of television and movies. American is still the epicenter for huge budget films today. Did Japan have that? I'm not talking about now obviously.


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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
Japan's comic culture is far younger then that of the US, and only started to any degree in the 60s and 70s. Clearly the Manga companies were succesful at making their product iconic in that time. Meanwhile American comic icons faded from their position.

And does having comics aimed at kids preclude you from having comics aimed at adults? No it does not. You can have kids comics and Adult comics. Certainly there's children's literature AND adult literature?

As a child I read every comic I ever could find. But the only comics I ever came across were Asterix and Obelix at my local Library(still love to this day), so I did not grow up reading comics on the whole. If I could have bought cheap comics from the news agent I would have done so. Also kids don't have that much control over their spending, it's their parents that control it. If their parents see a mild kids oriented Comic, they might very well buy it over the expensive video game system +games. In fact Kids are one of the easiest markets to tap because they'll enjoy almost anything. Considering the number of kid's eyeballs that were glued to Batman or Spiderman on TV, DC utterly failed to harness that to push up their sales in the kids demographic that was actually watching it.
If we're talking about modern manga, then no it didn't originate in the 60's at the earliest. It would be the late 1940's, just a few years after the superhero genre started booming in the United States. Japanese manga is actually heavily influenced by American comic books themselves. It's not a coincidence that the modern age started springing up around the same time of World War II. Astro Boy started in 1951 for crying out loud.

I don't see how you can attack American comics in terms of iconography. Superman is one of the most iconic creations that has ever existed since his inception. Everyone in practically every country knows who he is. Can you really say the same about Astro Boy? If I walk down the street here in San Francisco how many random people I ask are going to know Superman compared to Astro Boy? Big budget movies are the result of these iconic creations. Superman, Batman, X-Men, etc.

There are comics aimed at children these days. It's just that they're not that popular. So they do exist and are being made. But the children/parents aren't buying them. You take Superman and bring back his campyness you're telling me that parents are going to suddenly change tunes along with children and go for the comic books instead of video games and internet? Would you put $100 down on that?
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Old 2011-04-16, 07:50   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Samari View Post
I never said that Japan didn't have television or movies. But years and years ago Americans had access to the most popular and entertaining forms of television and movies. American is still the epicenter for huge budget films today. Did Japan have that? I'm not talking about now obviously.
There were a lot of great Japanese films made in the 50s and 60s (see Akira Kurosawa, etc.), and American movies were imported back then too.

Quote:
If we're talking about modern manga, then no it didn't originate in the 60's at the earliest. It would be the late 1940's, just a few years after the superhero genre started booming in the United States. Japanese manga is actually heavily influenced by American comic books themselves. It's not a coincidence that the modern age started springing up around the same time of World War II. Astro Boy started in 1951 for crying out loud.
I may be off by a decade, it's still a relatively recent phenomena compared to American Comics (which go back to the 30s and earlier)

Quote:
I don't see how you can attack American comics in terms of iconography. Superman is one of the most iconic creations that has ever existed since his inception. Everyone in practically every country knows who he is. Can you really say the same about Astro Boy? If I walk down the street here in San Francisco how many random people I ask are going to know Superman compared to Astro Boy? Big budget movies are the result of these iconic creations. Superman, Batman, X-Men, etc.
I never said they weren't iconic, just not as iconic as Manga (from your own point that there are manga characters everywhere, representing prefectures etc.). You don't see American states with their own super-hero mascot. On the other hand most Colleges do have a cartoony mascot so...

Quote:
There are comics aimed at children these days. It's just that they're not that popular. So they do exist and are being made. But the children/parents aren't buying them. You take Superman and bring back his campyness you're telling me that parents are going to suddenly change tunes along with children and go for the comic books instead of video games and internet? Would you put $100 down on that?
Not many, and they're certainly not replicating the formula that made earlier comic books, or Jump, so succesful.

My point is that they shouldn't have changed Superman to be less campy in the first place. They should instead have started other franchises that were squarely aimed at adults. Or had an adult Superman line and a kids superman line (though that could get confusing).

If there was a decent marketing push, and it established a presence in Libraries and newsagents, I think Comics could come back over a number of years. I'd put $1,000 down on that. Kids will always find the same stuff entertaining whereever and whenever you go, so long as it makes sense (IE is written in their language, is not obsolescent in the technology it depicts. They wouldn't be impressed if Bruce wayne had a mobile phone now, whereas they would have in 1950).
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Old 2011-04-16, 09:01   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Samari View Post
Every comic book that has been widely popular...whether or not it's manga or American, has had a bit of the absurd in it. You should know that before you pick up the book. When you start questioning "well that wouldn't happen", well obviously it's a fabricated story with certain rules you just have to accept. I never questioned why Son Goku wore his gi every single day when I was reading Dragonball.
Didn't Son Goku wear a gi every day because he was training most of the time?


Though it's not really the outfits. It's the fact that you have a world with super powered freaks running around punching eachother at mach 10 and with hyper powered energy rays. But at no point does Dragon Ball Z ever ask us to seriously sit down and contemplate the ethics/politics/sociology of super heroes. It's just an action packed romp where people act silly one minute than beat the crap out of each other the next.

My issue isn't that many American comics ask me to turn my brain off for some silly things. My issue is they ask me to partially turn it back on to intelligently examine some aspects of their story lines, while double thinking to ignore the silly stuff.
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Originally Posted by scraggy View Post
I'm not going to argue this point because Luthor is actually my favorite villain of all time, BUT I do believe superhero comics can be used to make serious points, classics like DKR, Watchmen, and Kingdom Come are fine examples (I've written a lot on this subject), because superheroes are inherently idealized versions of ourselves, and pure caricatures of different people who can easily be used to make a point, and i'm not pointing any fingers, but because of the sort of generic characters marvel produces (really? another angsty teen with powers?) they aren't able to do that as much as D.C. is with the characters it idealized in the Silver Age, corrupted in the Bronze Age, and dug into in the Modern Age.
Out of that list I've only read Kingdom Come. But I'll point out that Kingdom Come is God Tier in quality as far as American comics are concerned in terms of the art and how they approach the situation in the world. You also have to consider is that these storylines while epic, are limited AU runs not directly connected with the larger normal continuity. That's one of the reasons why they can go and rock the boat, and not have the things they changed reset in a subsequent storyline.


If I will give credit to Marvel/DC, the alternate/future self contained arcs they do on occasion can be incredibly good. (Like Batman Beyond).
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