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Old 2011-04-17, 11:26   Link #101
delirium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Used to be, "The only people who stay dead in comics, are Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."

Now it's just Uncle Ben
I like what they've done with Bucky though. It's not as bad as let us say, Jason Todd's retcon. He was brought back to life by Superboy-Prime punching reality, the retcon punch! At least Marvel attempted to give us a decent story explaining Bucky Barnes > Winter Soldier.
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Old 2011-04-17, 11:55   Link #102
scraggy
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yeah because superboy prime PUNCHED JASON TODD BACK TO LIFE
seriously i hate jason todd so much oh my god


on another note I picked up Brightest Day 10 and GL 55 and 56 the other day and I am starting to really dig this storyline again.
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Old 2011-05-10, 17:10   Link #103
Samari
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Sazae-san doesn't look at all like modern manga, and it's in strip form. It's more like Calvin and Hobbes then any of the modern manga we know.
I think it's still considered by many to be part of the modern form of manga. Comics in the forties here in American don't look like what you'd pick up today, but they'll still considered the same type of medium and sequential storytelling.


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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Superman is, as is Batman, but what about the Green Lantern? Flash? A few famous comic characters are very iconic, as is Astro-boy in Japan, but comic book characters in themselves are not. Manga has much more presence in Japan then Comic Books do in the West, that is my core point.
And your point is flawed. I just proved that. The fact that I named one should be enough. Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman...they're all irrelevant. I have the feeling if I gave you ten you'd ask for 100. Manga has much more presence in Japan yes. It's more embedded in their culture (due to the absence of things like high quality television, movies, etc. compared to the West in the early part of the 20th century). I think we already went over that. But I'm saying on a world wide scale no anime/manga character comes close to the dominance in terms of recognition that Superman has. There is no debating that.

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
If video games are so amazing then how kids still go outside and play with such primitive things as balls. Also most computer games are NOT aimed at kids. It's still mario and Tetris for them. Most parents won't let their 5 year olds near Halo or GTA. Likewise what kids play WOW? I don't think I can imagine any 5 year olds ever playing something like that, or persuading their parents to give up a monthly fee. Kids are an entirely different ballgame to Teenagers, which is what you're describing. Also I've been playing games for years now, and I love them dearly, but they're not significantly better now then they were in 1995, they certainly look better, but gameplay is of a similiar quality (albeit more streamlined).
Because not everyone can afford it obviously. Not to mention people still have other interested. I never implied people don't go outside anymore. I did imply that people that do play video games to a good degree are more prone to playing all day now and days with the type of games that are available. The gaming industry has evolved so much in just the past 15 years it's ridiculous. And there are plenty of games aimed at people of all ages. As for parents, it's subjective depending on the area. Even here in America. You can't speak for most parents in this kind of country that is so diverse with varying types of social classes combined with varying culture types. It's nice that your sharing your opinion about your experience in gaming, but you're only one person.

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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I'M NOT ADVOCATING MAKING ALL COMICS CAMPY, just some comics. If you can't get kids into reading comics, then comic will die. People tend to continue as adults, hobbies they had as kids. You could make your arguments with the Teenage market, but not with kids, as kids across the world are exactly the same (bar language). If American comics produced now for kids are failing, it's because they're not doing it right. They're not marketting it right, they're not producing the right content, they're not getting it into public places where kids can find them. But if the comic is good, the kid will read it. Kids are bored all the time, hell they'll even read normal books with the right encouragement. Look at the continued success Dr. Suess continues to have.
You were advocating making a lot of mainstream titles campy. Yeah I'm sure that is really going to do huge favors for the industry now. This isn't the 1950's anymore. If comics went back to that kind of style, weak storytelling, and watered down uninteresting plots with awful dialogue the industry would be in worse shape than it is now. It would be like insulting modern day society's intellect. If anything it's the accessibility that has been an issue. But not the lack of it being campy within the stories themselves. That's ridiculous.
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Old 2011-05-11, 20:13   Link #104
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samari View Post
You were advocating making a lot of mainstream titles campy. Yeah I'm sure that is really going to do huge favors for the industry now. This isn't the 1950's anymore. If comics went back to that kind of style, weak storytelling, and watered down uninteresting plots with awful dialogue the industry would be in worse shape than it is now. It would be like insulting modern day society's intellect. If anything it's the accessibility that has been an issue. But not the lack of it being campy within the stories themselves. That's ridiculous.
You're misreading me. I never said all or most should be campy. Just some. There's a simple joy in clean, ridiculous, fun. The closest thing in Comics today is Deadpool, and even he's a bit too bloody for all ages.

I'm not saying we should go back to watered down plots and uninteresting storytelling. You can have good camp. Half of comedy is based around it. Asterix and Obelix is one of the best comics out there, and it's damn campy. Nothing wrong with it. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is another example of something that's campy and good. The two are not incompatible.

Heck even today a lot of comics are pretty campy. But they combine their camp with grittyness that isolates it from the core audience that made Comics great in the first place: kids. If you lose the child demographic, comics are dead. Maybe not immediately, but in the long term. X-men and Iron Man will cease to exist outside of the movies. As it is they already make more money from licensing then from the comics themselves. In Japan Manga sales are still respectable.

I am advocating more comics all round. But more of a variety of genres. More genres that can pull in more readers. But I'm not saying that by doing so you'll be reducing the number of current comics being published. By producing more camp, we don't produce less serious fare. We can just produce the same amount of serious fare, and produce stuff oriented for kids.
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Old 2011-05-11, 23:51   Link #105
Samari
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
You're misreading me. I never said all or most should be campy. Just some. There's a simple joy in clean, ridiculous, fun. The closest thing in Comics today is Deadpool, and even he's a bit too bloody for all ages.

I'm not saying we should go back to watered down plots and uninteresting storytelling. You can have good camp. Half of comedy is based around it. Asterix and Obelix is one of the best comics out there, and it's damn campy. Nothing wrong with it. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is another example of something that's campy and good. The two are not incompatible.

Heck even today a lot of comics are pretty campy. But they combine their camp with grittyness that isolates it from the core audience that made Comics great in the first place: kids. If you lose the child demographic, comics are dead. Maybe not immediately, but in the long term. X-men and Iron Man will cease to exist outside of the movies. As it is they already make more money from licensing then from the comics themselves. In Japan Manga sales are still respectable.

I am advocating more comics all round. But more of a variety of genres. More genres that can pull in more readers. But I'm not saying that by doing so you'll be reducing the number of current comics being published. By producing more camp, we don't produce less serious fare. We can just produce the same amount of serious fare, and produce stuff oriented for kids.
You're going to have to define good camp then. At least to you. Like would your definition still involve killing? Or instances were people die? Do you omit bad language? Because you take things like that out and you lose a huge core of your audience. Most notably the adults. Let's face it, it's the real world out there. People have sex, die, and use foul language. Comic books are just taking a realistic take on what is actually happening on this planet in terms of social behavior. Like Stan Lee always said "keep it current". And the comic books today aren't even that bad in terms of material. It also depends what you pick up. You get something like Moon Knight, that is goin going to be pretty dark. You get something like Superman, you're most likely fine.

Comic books have not had a huge interest from children for about twenty years yet they're still here. I doubt they cease to exist "outside of movies". Especially when characters that have been around for a long time are used in merchandising and other aspects like video games, toys, etc. The format of the medium (the monthly periodical) is hurting comics more than anything else. Trade paperbacks are much more convenient and logical. Manga you're getting 200 plus pages for about $14 or whatever. Comics you're paying around $3 for 22 pages. It's just a matter of time and getting a format that is more suited for today's economy. But the audience isn't really the problem. Just the marketing to it's current type of audience. Like I said, availability in purely specialty shops instead of places like Borders makes it more difficult.
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Old 2011-05-12, 00:50   Link #106
Sumeragi
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The only series I had any love for were the Sonic the Hedgehog comics.
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Old 2011-05-12, 08:29   Link #107
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samari View Post
You're going to have to define good camp then. At least to you. Like would your definition still involve killing? Or instances were people die? Do you omit bad language? Because you take things like that out and you lose a huge core of your audience. Most notably the adults. Let's face it, it's the real world out there. People have sex, die, and use foul language. Comic books are just taking a realistic take on what is actually happening on this planet in terms of social behavior. Like Stan Lee always said "keep it current". And the comic books today aren't even that bad in terms of material. It also depends what you pick up. You get something like Moon Knight, that is goin going to be pretty dark. You get something like Superman, you're most likely fine.
Realistic stories for Adults. Less realistic stories for children. It has to be unrealistic enough that parents would be willing to let their kids read em. If you don't like it, you can keep reading the already existing "adult" Comics you know and love. There's nothing wrong with dark comics, but something like Superman, which was written to epitomise light heroics, should be kept relatively light. No talking about political issues or anything. That or they should write something like shazam.

Quote:
Comic books have not had a huge interest from children for about twenty years yet they're still here. I doubt they cease to exist "outside of movies". Especially when characters that have been around for a long time are used in merchandising and other aspects like video games, toys, etc. The format of the medium (the monthly periodical) is hurting comics more than anything else. Trade paperbacks are much more convenient and logical. Manga you're getting 200 plus pages for about $14 or whatever. Comics you're paying around $3 for 22 pages. It's just a matter of time and getting a format that is more suited for today's economy. But the audience isn't really the problem. Just the marketing to it's current type of audience. Like I said, availability in purely specialty shops instead of places like Borders makes it more difficult.
The format is hurting their sales, but it's also true that it's also the material. It's far too gritty to appeal to the child market, and it's also far too expensive. If you compare to Japan, they put out tankobon for about 300 yen, and the weekly shonen jump is also 300 yen (or so). If you consider that that's 20 series each with 20 pages in an issue, that's good value (400 pages for ~3 dollars!). Of course you can't get prices down like that unless you have circulations in the millions.

But if you can't get kids reading them again comics will just die a slow death. With out any new readership they'll just age themselves out of the market. Already more people are associating these properties with their movie counterparts then their original format. So they might continue as film series, but they might die in their original medium. Look at James Bond. The books it was originally based on are not exactly best sellers, compared to the movies.
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Old 2011-05-12, 16:12   Link #108
Samari
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Realistic stories for Adults. Less realistic stories for children. It has to be unrealistic enough that parents would be willing to let their kids read em. If you don't like it, you can keep reading the already existing "adult" Comics you know and love. There's nothing wrong with dark comics, but something like Superman, which was written to epitomise light heroics, should be kept relatively light. No talking about political issues or anything. That or they should write something like shazam.
But titles like that already exist. Superman Adventures was in production not too long ago. Young Justice is currently in production. I think "The Batman" might still be going too. There are a good amount of comics geared towards children with a lot of the "main" heroes. The reality you want already exists. Marvel and DC both have acting publishing titles for children.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The format is hurting their sales, but it's also true that it's also the material. It's far too gritty to appeal to the child market, and it's also far too expensive. If you compare to Japan, they put out tankobon for about 300 yen, and the weekly shonen jump is also 300 yen (or so). If you consider that that's 20 series each with 20 pages in an issue, that's good value (400 pages for ~3 dollars!). Of course you can't get prices down like that unless you have circulations in the millions.

But if you can't get kids reading them again comics will just die a slow death. With out any new readership they'll just age themselves out of the market. Already more people are associating these properties with their movie counterparts then their original format. So they might continue as film series, but they might die in their original medium. Look at James Bond. The books it was originally based on are not exactly best sellers, compared to the movies.
Like I said, comics are still here. It's not the material, it's the format and marketing in terms of finance and location. I already explained why. Pretty simple to comprehend. If you don't want to accept it, that's on you. You can believe what you'd like. American comics have been gritty since the mid eighties. And there are still a lot of American comics geared towards younger ages. And seeing as how movies have gotten better and more exciting over the years, it's not hard to see why people relate to them more so. As a matter of fact it's always been this way. Movies are more popular than any kind of comic period. Or even book for that matter now and days. Not to mention you only have to pay to see it once and not follow a story month after month for years and years. Only takes two hours of your time and you are getting a performance from real people. When was a comic book ever more exciting than a movie? People are always looking forward towards a movie than a book. Even for something as epic as Harry Potter.
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Last edited by Samari; 2011-05-12 at 16:37.
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