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Old 2013-09-22, 22:37   Link #261
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
For the record, I don't think True Tears is more subtly defined, primarily because it relied too much on melodrama.
Archon and I were talking about the True Tears characters being subtly defined.


Quote:
The drama in HSI lasted around 10 minutes, was resolved without any drama at all and even had a straightman moment of a character lampshading on the drama. Most importantly, the principle perspective of the whole debacle wasn't Yuki nor even Minko: The main perspective was Ohana who simply viewed it as an awkward situation ( which is how we were meant to view it). Even more was that the whole point afterwards is that they realised they were being overdramatic and shouldn't have been.
Just because characters recognize their melodramatic behavior after the fact doesn't make it any less melodramatic. In fact, it confirms that they were being melodramatic.

As for Noe, of course her bad breakup and the aftermath of it was heavily dramatized. It's the freaking climax/aftermath of the main conflict of the show (which is definitely more than what the omurice conflict was in HSI).


Quote:
Like I said, it isn't the characters being dramatic that matters. Its the show.
That's just your personal opinion, which I disagree with. In my view, the characters acting overly dramatic is what matters most in making a show melodramatic.
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Old 2013-09-23, 00:14   Link #262
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So Yuki's supporters are making a big deal over Yuki wanting to confess. So how exactly is that any less melodramatic than Noe making a big deal over a bad breakup, which was one of Haak's main points concerning True Tears? In both cases, an anime show is greatly dramatizing teenage romance, just from opposite ends chronologically. If anything, I would say that a bad breakup is typically more emotionally impacting than a longing to confess. And heck, with Yuki's supporters, it's even a case of drama by proxy. At least with Noe, she personally suffered a bad breakup.

The omurice bit had a lot of melodrama to it. You and Haak are downplaying it too much, imo.
I wasn't comparing the two scenes. I was commenting on the omurice subplot specifically.


Having blundered into that kind of landmine before, I found Yuki's reaction pretty realistic for someone with that level of pent-up emotions. And I don't find the reactions of her supporters that surprising either. Minko's being a bit of a jerk to them even before she lambasts Yuki - which always struck me as a bit of a "kick the puppy" moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
There are many broadly accepted definitions of melodrama (easily researchable to anyone who cares to do so). Using any one of them. HSI is far more melodramatic than True Tears. That doesn't mean you can't like HSI better, but to call it less melodramatic you pretty much have to use a custom-made definition designed to support the argument.
Uh, I actually looked up the definition and I'm still having trouble telling where the line between "melodrama" and "ham" is. I've kind of been operating on the basis that there is a line and its only melodrama if the exaggeration is aimed at the audiences emotions - if its just for laughs its ham.

Using that definition, I'd still say HSI is more melodramatic, just because of the show's tendency to relentlessly carpet bomb Ohana with bulls$%* from time to time - it was not hard to feel sorry for her. But I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it out to be, because so many of the scenes are just ham.
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Old 2013-09-23, 05:34   Link #263
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Maybe I have a completely different definition to melodrama to you all, but I found both True Tears nor Hanasaku Iroha melodramatic as a whole. True Tears despite its title didn't have people bawling out in tears and yelling in the background. Hanasaku Iroha had ample amount of "stupid shit" to be called melodramatic, and that's the reason why I have a problem with it, not because it had bad teen angst or forced crying, which it didn't.

When I think of melodrama, I think of stuff like Ano Hana, Kokoro Connect, Black Rock Shooter, ef, Clannad After Story and heck Kaiji (). In other words, those types of series that rely on theatrics and over-acting, rather than an extraordinary situation. Now granted, I think ef was a masterful work out of the lot because I felt like I was watching a Shakespeare play in anime form and After Story was mostly good. The rest... well... everyone knows my opinions on those. Except for maybe Kaiji. I watch that shit because its the definition of so bad its good.
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Old 2013-09-23, 05:37   Link #264
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Well, I think you'd have a harder time finding a generally agreed definition of "ham" than melodrama. I think for most people it's an "I know it when I see it" thing, but one person's ham is another person's filet mignon.

As far as melodrama, you can start with the dictionary definitions:

Quote:
A drama, such as a play, film, or television program, characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts.

Performing Arts) a play, film, etc., characterized by extravagant action and emotion

a dramatic form that exaggerates emotion and emphasizes plot or action over characterization.
When I look at True Tears and HanaIro, it is as clear cut as could be for me which comes closer to meeting those definitions. YMMV.
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Old 2013-09-23, 09:46   Link #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Just because characters recognize their melodramatic behavior after the fact doesn't make it any less melodramatic. In fact, it confirms that they were being melodramatic.

As for Noe, of course her bad breakup and the aftermath of it was heavily dramatized. It's the freaking climax/aftermath of the main conflict of the show (which is definitely more than what the omurice conflict was in HSI).

That's just your personal opinion, which I disagree with. In my view, the characters acting overly dramatic is what matters most in making a show melodramatic.
Sorry but I only consider melodrama in relation to actual drama rather than anything that involves exaggerated emotions because the latter is far too broad. In my opinion, Love Lab is not the greatest melodrama of the century.

Guardian Enzo's quoted definition above actually fits that perfectly.
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Old 2013-09-23, 09:49   Link #266
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Can we stop fighting... and just conclude Nagi no Asu kara is gonna suck? :3

JkJk.

But I think both sides have heard each other's opinion. I just wanted to fanboy about True Tours
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Old 2013-09-23, 10:07   Link #267
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Well, I think you'd have a harder time finding a generally agreed definition of "ham" than melodrama. I think for most people it's an "I know it when I see it" thing, but one person's ham is another person's filet mignon.

As far as melodrama, you can start with the dictionary definitions:

Quote:
A drama, such as a play, film, or television program, characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts.

Performing Arts) a play, film, etc., characterized by extravagant action and emotion

a dramatic form that exaggerates emotion and emphasizes plot or action over characterization.
When I look at True Tears and HanaIro, it is as clear cut as could be for me which comes closer to meeting those definitions. YMMV.
Hmmm... I was going off of Oxford's "a sensational dramatic piece with exaggerated characters and exciting events intended to appeal to the emotions" which is subtly different. IMO.
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Old 2013-09-23, 10:11   Link #268
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Yeah, you know, I'm actually going to watch Nagi no Asukara for a bit before I decide it's gonna suck. P.A. Works connects with me more often than not, and manga adaptations of original series (not that I've read this one, only heard second-complaints) are a notoriously bad indicator.
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Old 2013-09-23, 10:30   Link #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
In my opinion, Love Lab is not the greatest melodrama of the century.
Excuse but Love Lab isn't a melodrama, thats the director adding his flavour into the series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Can we stop fighting... and just conclude Nagi no Asu kara is gonna suck? :3
I do!
This is me when reading the 2 manga chapters translated so far.
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Old 2013-09-23, 11:55   Link #270
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Omg so much discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Are you comparing to KyoAni's designs or Key's here?
http://tinypic.com/r/2i74by1/5
http://tinypic.com/r/2wlu6u9/5
Because... yeah.
Well, the original Key designs are umm... questionable at times. Kotomi's alright here; Kyoani did better though.

Quote:
Yuki's supporters are serious about it because they know how badly Yuki wants to confess to Kirito. Minko treats it seriously because she's treating it like her job rather than a cultural festival event. The omurice is merely how those two forces end up clashing.

And Haak is right, it does return to comedy rather quickly... remember, the day of the festival scene includes such line as "I hate myself for even suggesting to add that dish to the menu" and (Yuina's straight man moment) "It's like I'm watching a teen drama."
Yea, I do understand the Omurice was merely a vehicle to bring out the bigger conflict here. It's just really tough to sympathize with characters we barely knew to this degree, so the brunt of our interest is going to be placed on Minko. And while Minko eventually did ok, I think the points could have been a lot more subtle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
For the record, I don't think that bit was meant to cause drama on its own. I think the purpose of that was to contribute to a "worst day of my life" sort of feeling. It's raining hard, she feels like crap after running away from Ko and failing miserably against her mum, and to top it off these a-holes come out of nowhere and start harrassing her and she just crumbles under the weight.
Yea, but like the example above, I felt it went a bit too far. In this one, I just had no suspension of disbelief whatsoever. It seems to be a thing about the series to push valid points too far. A clear sign is that I had the feeling that that scene could have not existed, and the feelings would have been similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
There are many broadly accepted definitions of melodrama (easily researchable to anyone who cares to do so). Using any one of them. HSI is far more melodramatic than True Tears. That doesn't mean you can't like HSI better, but to call it less melodramatic you pretty much have to use a custom-made definition designed to support the argument.
Why don't you stand your ground and pick one then and actually argue your point in how any of the shows above conform to said definition? You're use of "custom definition" implies goalpost movement, and while that's certainly a possibility, I'm simply not going to accept it just because you say so. Your basically valuing your opinion above others in the thread by default. If that's the best you can come up with, I'm quite disappointed in you, Enzo.

Here's some definitions, if we really want to try to put in some objective criteria.

From Wiki:
Quote:
The term melodrama refers to a dramatic work that puts characters in danger in order to appeal to the emotions.
First google dictionary definition:
Quote:
mel·o·dra·ma (ml-dräm, -drm)
n.
1.
a. A drama, such as a play, film, or television program, characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts.
b. The dramatic genre characterized by this treatment.
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Old 2013-09-23, 15:33   Link #271
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It should be noted that this whole melodrama debate started because I argued that melodrama sells better than subtle does in the world of anime. I made that argument in order to address Pocari Sweat's question as to why Okada doesn't write more narratives like True Tears and Wandering Son, instead of "over the top middle school/high school romance melodramas."

If the term "melodrama" is one that people find hard to agree on, then perhaps it would be better to say "Works that are loud, flashy, and over the top tend to sell better than works that are subdued and restrained". I should hope that nobody is going to question that HSI is loud, flashy, and over the top. Whether you chalk it up to hammy comedy or melodrama or both, HSI is definitely loud, flashy, and frequently over the top. Again, this is not a criticism - I loved pro wrestling for a long time largely because it was loud, flashy, and over the top. I usual like very theatrical shows. And it seems that anime costumers go for that over more subdued and restrained SoL or drama shows.

So, tl;dr, Okada is simply going for where the money is.
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Old 2013-09-23, 19:02   Link #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
O


Why don't you stand your ground and pick one then and actually argue your point in how any of the shows above conform to said definition? You're use of "custom definition" implies goalpost movement, and while that's certainly a possibility, I'm simply not going to accept it just because you say so. Your basically valuing your opinion above others in the thread by default. If that's the best you can come up with, I'm quite disappointed in you, Enzo.
Three dictionary definitions which I felt supported my argument wasn't enough for you? What would be the number you're looking for - 5? 11? 2349?
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Old 2013-09-23, 19:23   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Three dictionary definitions which I felt supported my argument wasn't enough for you? What would be the number you're looking for - 5? 11? 2349?
See, I'm afraid arguments have to be constructed in reality. You don't accomplish anything by posting a definition and go lolgg. If you're going to say people are using custom or arbitrary definitions, you're going to have to break it down even more.

There's a reason why I was willing to engage with Triple R, Haak, and 0utf0x even though I don't agree with all their points. This is because they used actual arguments, cited actual events in the story, or touched upon various themes. You're still using a circular argument.

My point is you don't actually have an argument.

In other words, it went

X is melodramatic
Rebuttal: X is not melodramatic
Counter Rebuttal: Refine Melodramatic to Y and X is Y
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Old 2013-09-23, 19:58   Link #274
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So effectively, by your standards if I say "San Francisco is North of Los Angeles" and post a map to prove it, that's insufficient because I'm not constructing my own argument, I'm relying on existing arguments to prove me point.
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Old 2013-09-23, 20:06   Link #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
So effectively, by your standards if I say "San Francisco is North of Los Angeles" and post a map to prove it, that's insufficient because I'm not constructing my own argument, I'm relying on existing arguments to prove me point.
I'm not sure HSI being "characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts" more so than True Tears is as self evident as San Francisco being north of Los Angeles.
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Old 2013-09-23, 20:11   Link #276
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
So effectively, by your standards if I say "San Francisco is North of Los Angeles" and post a map to prove it, that's insufficient because I'm not constructing my own argument, I'm relying on existing arguments to prove me point.
Not a valid analogy.

In your analogy, you are making a statement of fact, and by using the map, you're confirming the fact. That's the end of it.

For your analogy to work, we would have to be debating over the definition of melodrama and it would be a valid refutation if I refused to accept your definition or disregarded it. I'm not though. This ignores the main argument of whether Hanairo is more or less melodramatic than the other shows and why, using whatever definition you picked in the first place. The definition in itself does not do anything unless used to connect points into an argument.
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Old 2013-09-23, 20:43   Link #277
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Not a valid analogy.

In your analogy, you are making a statement of fact, and by using the map, you're confirming the fact. That's the end of it.

For your analogy to work, we would have to be debating over the definition of melodrama and it would be a valid refutation if I refused to accept your definition or disregarded it. I'm not though. This ignores the main argument of whether Hanairo is more or less melodramatic than the other shows and why, using whatever definition you picked in the first place. The definition in itself does not do anything unless used to connect points into an argument.
Well, that's not what you said before. But if the issue is not with the definition but rather with the way the series in question meet it, that certainly makes more sense. It's not as if melodrama is a new concept - it's an established term, with generally agreed-upon meaning.

Based on the definitions I quoted, I think it's pretty simple.

Quote:
A drama, such as a play, film, or television program, characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts.
Look at the omurice drama for exaggerated emotions. The half-wit brother and the cigarette-chomping publicist for stereotypical characters. The cute, demure girl, the tsundere, the bad boy, the quiet but determined best friend. HanaIro has it all.

Quote:
Performing Arts) a play, film, etc., characterized by extravagant action and emotion
Again, this seems self-explanatory to me to the point where I sometimes wondered if Okada was engaging in self-parody. I won't deny there's a lot of emotion in True Tears but I don't see it as extravagant - I think it's pretty authentic to the characters as written.

Quote:
a dramatic form that exaggerates emotion and emphasizes plot or action over characterization.
As with all of it, it's a matter of personal opinion - but for me, True Tears is a character-driven series. It's Shin'ichiro, Hiromi and Noe and their emotions which drive the bus - the shared past with Hiromi, the personal journey of Noe. HanaIro is driven by the situations more than the characters almost all the time - the characters fill their assigned roles to drive the plot, and the cast is full of 2D characters who exist primarily for that purpose. It's really only Ohana and her Grandmother who exist as fully realized characters.
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Old 2013-09-23, 21:14   Link #278
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Well, that's not what you said before. But if the issue is not with the definition but rather with the way the series in question meet it, that certainly makes more sense. It's not as if melodrama is a new concept - it's an established term, with generally agreed-upon meaning.
I've been asking why a few times, but let's just assume I wasn't clear enough.

Quote:
Look at the omurice drama for exaggerated emotions. The half-wit brother and the cigarette-chomping publicist for stereotypical characters. The cute, demure girl, the tsundere, the bad boy, the quiet but determined best friend. HanaIro has it all.
I agree with the omurice being an instance of it. The other being the half-wit brother plotline. But I'm a bit split on whether the rest of the stereotypes were used to produce drama though. I mean, there were the kind to get resolved quickly and really didn't have to impact on the overall flow of the plot. In fact outside of Minko's angst for Tohru, the amount of "drama" attached to these characters amount to a few episodes. The thing is that this definition if we don't use the "drama" part can also be used for comedy.


Quote:
Again, this seems self-explanatory to me to the point where I sometimes wondered if Okada was engaging in self-parody. I won't deny there's a lot of emotion in True Tears but I don't see it as extravagant - I think it's pretty authentic to the characters as written.
I guess it's a matter of opinion on matters of if the emotion was excessive. Still, I think it's safe to argue that True Tears did have a lot of authentic emotion from it.


Quote:
As with all of it, it's a matter of personal opinion - but for me, True Tears is a character-driven series. It's Shin'ichiro, Hiromi and Noe and their emotions which drive the bus - the shared past with Hiromi, the personal journey of Noe. HanaIro is driven by the situations more than the characters almost all the time - the characters fill their assigned roles to drive the plot, and the cast is full of 2D characters who exist primarily for that purpose. It's really only Ohana and her Grandmother who exist as fully realized characters.
I think Hanairo is a bit more character driven then you give it credit for. The silly situations that occur in the series do not really contribute much to the main plot-- and that is about Ohana growing up. There's really only a handful of events to the story, notably in the beginning and middle and end that really affect this.

There's a certain reason why the series would go out of its way to go and develop characters like Nako and Yuina, of which certainly had its questionable aspects, but it was to show that they had another side of them.

And also, Minko isn't really that flat of a character. I don't consider her a stereotypical tsundere at all (Actually, she doesn't even act harsh to the object of her affection, so she might not be one at all.) Yes, it was hard to take her character seriously, but she did change, and honestly I don't think she was made to serve the plot at all.

It's just a matter of opinion of course, but I felt that Hana Saku Iroha wasn't melodramatic because Ohana's reactions to her situation while a bit over the top were appropriate given what she had to deal with. To me at least, a situation where you are forced to fend for yourself and you are disconnected from someone you really care about is a bit more understandable than a romantic love triangle.

Now, this isn't saying that True Tears didn't have strong emotions either-- certainly it's reasonable to say that these events have had painful impact on all parties involved. To me though, I simply wasn't able to form this kind of connection with Hiromi because her past while touching, wasn't as in depth as I would have wanted it, Noe I just felt increasingly disconnected with her actions near the end. To me, it just felt that the bus was no longer driven by them in the last 1/3.

Anyhow, that's all subjective, and thanks for elaborating-- that's all what I wanted anyways. In any case, I understand that Iroha is buried other too much crap to make this worth debating, and I think Anohana is better then both of them despite the M word. I like my anime just like I like my food-- with strong tastes, and it's only natural that overall I think it goes Anohana - TT - HSI. So don't take it that I'm defending Iroha over the other two.
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Old 2013-09-23, 21:47   Link #279
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Well indeed, this is all a matter of personal opinion. But I do think it's important to recognize that melodrama isn't a pejorative term. To my tastes there are good and bad melodramas, and good and bad series that have melodramatic elements. The presence of melodrama doesn't make a series less good, and the absence of it make it better - not on its own.

As for Anohana, which I commonly see mentioned as a melodramatic icon (and I suppose this is OT since this is a P.A. Works thread and not an Okada thread) I think it meets some of the definitions of melodrama, but not all of them. I think it's very much a character-driven show, for example, and I don't find the characters stereotypical at all. A much better example (and even more OT) example of a true melodrama, IMO, is Clannad.
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Old 2013-09-23, 22:01   Link #280
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Why does everyone keep coming back to the damn omurice example?

Unless we're talking about how the camerawork emphasizes how brash and forceful Minko's delivery was - which I don't think we are because I've never heard anyone else bring it up - I don't see how the level of emotion in the scene was exaggerated. It's pretty much how I'd expect the scene to play out based on my real lif experiences where similar factors were at play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat View Post
Maybe I have a completely different definition to melodrama to you all, but I found both True Tears nor Hanasaku Iroha melodramatic as a whole. True Tears despite its title didn't have people bawling out in tears and yelling in the background. Hanasaku Iroha had ample amount of "stupid shit" to be called melodramatic, and that's the reason why I have a problem with it, not because it had bad teen angst or forced crying, which it didn't.

When I think of melodrama, I think of stuff like Ano Hana, Kokoro Connect, Black Rock Shooter, ef, Clannad After Story and heck Kaiji (). In other words, those types of series that rely on theatrics and over-acting, rather than an extraordinary situation. Now granted, I think ef was a masterful work out of the lot because I felt like I was watching a Shakespeare play in anime form and After Story was mostly good. The rest... well... everyone knows my opinions on those. Except for maybe Kaiji. I watch that shit because its the definition of so bad its good.
You raise an interesting point here. I know for me personally, whatever the technical definition of melodrama may be, I tend to associate the term with shows that have boatloads of angst and blatant tearjerking. Which is why when you get right down to it, I'm way more likely to describe True Tears as a "moe and melodrama flick" (a term I use affectionately) than Hanasaku Iroha. Even if it's got nothing on something like AnoHana or Angel Beats in the angst and tearjerker regard.
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