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Old 2013-07-16, 17:20   Link #481
Benoit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Miyamoto Shigeru pointed out that Wii U games require twice the human resources to make as a Wii game. This would put it in the same territory as the PS360, with the added burden of the developers having to learn a new platform and (at the time) immature development tools. The Wii U's significantly different architeture also means that it actually requires a lot of effort to port any titles over to it.
The Wii U's architecture is the same as the Wii's, which was the same as the Gamecube's. Developers never needed to learn a new architecture, so your point is bogus.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I'd say that buying a Wii U to play Wii games is a pretty sure sign of a Nintendo fan. That is unless you were looking to just playing Okami, MadWorld and No More Heroes.
As someone who bought a Wii for third-party games and owns lots of them, I have to call bullshit on this, too. There are more third-party Wii games worth playing than that.

It's a popular myth that the Wii only has a couple good non-Nintendo games.
Quote:
The Wii U is surely easier to learn than the PS3, but the latter's inner workings are fairly well known by now.
No, it's not. To my knowledge there's no third-party PS3 game that makes full use of the hardware.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Again, that's great for Nintendo fans, but it doesn't do much for non-fans.
Please stop assuming only Nintendo fans are interested in Nintendo's games.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Yes, and the price was one of the big reasons why it managed to catch fire. However, the drawback of that lower price was weaker power and a very different audience than that which existed on the 360 and the PS3.
Price and power are not directly related.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You're right, that's not quite all that it takes. Resident Evil 4 was a port from the Gamecube, so it ran well on the Wii.
No, it was a port from the PlayStation 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
The same issue applies to Sega for Sonic Unleashed, who felt the need to make an inferior gimmicky version for the Wii when the later Sonic Colors proved that the Wii could have easily handled the same level of graphics and 3D "Rush" style gameplay as seen in daytime PS360 daytime levels.
...Are you the same poster who claimed that the Wii version of Sonic Unleashed had gameplay like Sonic and the Secret Rings and Sonic and the Black Knight? Because my bullshit detector is off the charts once more. Sonic Unleashed plays exactly the same on the PlayStation 2 and the Wii as on the HD consoles. Again, you didn't actually play the game, did you?
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Old 2013-07-16, 17:29   Link #482
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
...Are you the same poster who claimed that the Wii version of Sonic Unleashed had gameplay like Sonic and the Secret Rings and Sonic and the Black Knight? Because my bullshit detector is off the charts once more. Sonic Unleashed plays exactly the same on the PlayStation 2 and the Wii as on the HD consoles. Again, you didn't actually play the game, did you?
Proof:



I'll ask the same question to you: did you actually play the two versions?

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-07-16 at 17:43.
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Old 2013-07-17, 00:07   Link #483
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
The Wii U's architecture is the same as the Wii's, which was the same as the Gamecube's. Developers never needed to learn a new architecture, so your point is bogus.
The Wii U has programmable shaders, while the Wii does not. That alone makes for huge differences in development. And if the differences weren't there, then why would Miyamoto claim that they still feel the need for better development tools even now, nine months after launch? And why has Nintendo been delayed six to nine months on all of their post-launch games?

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
No, it's not. To my knowledge there's no third-party PS3 game that makes full use of the hardware.
It's more a question of how much work is needed to get a game working on a console to begin with, not how much of its capabilities are being tapped.

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Please stop assuming only Nintendo fans are interested in Nintendo's games.
Anyone willing to pay a $350 entry fee to play just Nintendo games is a Nintendo fan.

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Price and power are not directly related.
Both are extremely important factors in determining market position. If a new console is significantly more powerful than the existing ones, then it has a good chance of enticing hardcore gamers. If it's significantly cheaper than the existing ones, it represents a lower barrier to adoption for late adopters and casual fans. The Wii U was neither, so it failed to gather neither of these key markets.
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Old 2013-07-17, 07:23   Link #484
Benoit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The Wii U has programmable shaders, while the Wii does not. That alone makes for huge differences in development.
Those programmable shaders are based on OpenGL, no?
Quote:
And if the differences weren't there, then why would Miyamoto claim that they still feel the need for better development tools even now, nine months after launch?
There could be any number of reasons, such as competitors's development tools becoming much better, meaning they need to catch up.
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And why has Nintendo been delayed six to nine months on all of their post-launch games?
According to Miyamoto, because they need to polish them as quality expectations have risen.
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Anyone willing to pay a $350 entry fee to play just Nintendo games is a Nintendo fan.
Not necessarily. There's such a thing as early adopters, plus $350 isn't that steep when you compare it the launch prices of the current generation's home consoles that aren't the Wii.
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Both are extremely important factors in determining market position. If a new console is significantly more powerful than the existing ones, then it has a good chance of enticing hardcore gamers.
Yet we previously agreed that power isn't that important...
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Old 2013-07-17, 07:46   Link #485
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
All this proves is that the levels are different. It proves nothing about the gameplay, which is exactly the same. You might have been misled by the fact that the sled section is at the start in the Wii version, while it's at the end in the Xbox 360 version.
Quote:

The final boss battle is structured differently. Big whoop.
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I'll ask the same question to you: did you actually play the two versions?
I don't need to have played both of them to disprove your claim, as I have played and beaten Sonic Rush, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic Unleashed (Wii). So I know what Sonic Rush gameplay is like and what Sonic and the Secret Rings plays like, and Sonic Unleashed (Wii) doesn't play anything like Sonic and the Secret Rings.

But if it's worth anything, I've seen the Xbox 360 demo being played at a friend's.
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Old 2013-07-17, 10:21   Link #486
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Those programmable shaders are based on OpenGL, no?
How does that matter? A new feature set means a new skillset will have to be developed to use it properly.

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
There could be any number of reasons, such as competitors's development tools becoming much better, meaning they need to catch up.
That's a good one . The reason development tools need to be improved is because the current ones aren't doing the job properly. It's not as if Nintendo's competitors' tools can be used on a Wii U!

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
According to Miyamoto, because they need to polish them as quality expectations have risen.
Hahaha! That's just PR speak for when a game is late and they're looking for an excuse that doesn't sound too ugly.

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Not necessarily. There's such a thing as early adopters, plus $350 isn't that steep when you compare it the launch prices of the current generation's home consoles that aren't the Wii.
We're discussing potential Wii U buyers. Early adopters presumably would have already bought in, so they aren't part of the discussion.

If you're not buying a Wii U for Nintendo games, then $350 is ridiculously steep. For that matter, what would you be buying one for?

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Yet we previously agreed that power isn't that important...
Why would we ever agree to something as silly as that? A console's power is one of its most important features, so why would you want to discount them?
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Old 2013-07-17, 22:25   Link #487
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
All this proves is that the levels are different. It proves nothing about the gameplay, which is exactly the same. You might have been misled by the fact that the sled section is at the start in the Wii version, while it's at the end in the Xbox 360 version.

The final boss battle is structured differently. Big whoop.
The PS360 versions also have more Daytime levels, on top of the graphics engine and general development being stated to be separate from Wii and PS2 versions.

If the visibly different level designs weren't enough to tip you off that the HD console version is a different experience from the Wii and PS2 versions, then I don't know what else to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
I don't need to have played both of them to disprove your claim, as I have played and beaten Sonic Rush, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic Unleashed (Wii). So I know what Sonic Rush gameplay is like and what Sonic and the Secret Rings plays like, and Sonic Unleashed (Wii) doesn't play anything like Sonic and the Secret Rings.

But if it's worth anything, I've seen the Xbox 360 demo being played at a friend's.
What does playing Sonic Rush and Sonic and the Secret Rings have anything to do with Sonic Unleashed having two different versions?

All you have confirmed is that you are making generalizations based on your personal experience with the Wii version.
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Old 2013-07-17, 22:48   Link #488
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Old 2013-07-18, 00:18   Link #489
Westlo
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lmao is that guy being sarcastic or is he just dumb? I actually can't tell if it's sarcasm or not.

Wii U 22k was shocking period, Pikmin being on sale for 2 days means nothing because the majority of week 1 sales are frontloaded to the first day.

This was the biggest Wii U week since launch, Nintendo actually started to advertise it in Japan again, they had a new premium white SKU, New Super Lugio addon/expansion, Nintendoland packaged with a Wiimote as well as the release of Pikmin 3. It did 22k, pathetic, Toukiden a brand new IP, a game released on the VITA and PSP pushed more Vita units than all of the above did for the Wii U.

Needs a price drop + games period but since they claim to already losing money on it as it is, lol.

Will be interesting to see how the PS4 goes, if it sells similar to the Wii U and the 3DS keeps around the pace it is than that's a massive shift in Japan from consoles and handhelds to smartphone games because of stuff like Puzzle & Dragons. The 3DS isn't selling as well as the DS did and the PSP was a big seller as well, not to mention the Wii moved units big time initially and the ps3 did respectively in the end.
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Old 2013-07-18, 00:34   Link #490
4Tran
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I'm afraid that this guy is a lot more optimistic about the Wii U than the numbers suggest is wise. Using the Media Create numbers, last week, the Wii U had about 8000 sales. This week, the figure is about 22000. This is only an increase of 14000, and such a small bump will likely only last 1-2 weeks. For comparison, Toukiden raised the Vita's sales by 18000 units two weeks ago, and the Vita should drop to pre-bump levels by next week. As the only decently big game in Japan for the next 3-4 months, this is absolutely awful for Nintendo.

That said, Donkey Kong and Mario are bigger titles than Pikmin so they should have more impact. However, if the Wii U settles at 5-8000 units per week until they come out, there's not going to be much to save. Either way, the Wii U is the fourth most popular platform for Japanese developers to release on, and it's going to drop to fifth when the PS4 comes out.

On Pikmin itself, the games historically sell about 500,000 units. A 92,000 first week is about normal, but the low Wii U install base (just shy of 1 million) makes it unlikely that Pikmin 3 will sell as well as the earlier games. The series does tend to have really long legs though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
lmao is that guy being sarcastic or is he just dumb? I actually can't tell if it's sarcasm or not.
He believes in what he's saying. On the face of things, a increase seems like good news for Nintendo. It's only when you look at what those numbers represent that the sheer awfulness reveals itself.

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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Needs a price drop + games period but since they claim to already losing money on it as it is, lol.
I think that Nintendo was originally planning to have a price drop coincide with the release of the "heavy" hitters. Now, I think that they're going to have to do so by August-September. Moreover, I'm now convinced that a price point above $250 is non-viable. The problem is that the 360 and PS3 are also going to see price drops around the same time, and they can be dropped even lower.

I don't think that Nintendo can even wait for Mario Kart and Smash Brothers. Any chance of picking up non-Nintendo fans has to happen this year - 2014 will be the year that the new consoles are going to flex their power and it's also when that audience is gone for good.
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Old 2013-07-23, 17:11   Link #491
Benoit
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
How does that matter? A new feature set means a new skillset will have to be developed to use it properly.
OpenGL is a standard, so at least a good chunk of the skills could be reused.
Quote:
Hahaha! That's just PR speak for when a game is late and they're looking for an excuse that doesn't sound too ugly.
Considering the current climate, I'm not so sure.
Quote:
If you're not buying a Wii U for Nintendo games, then $350 is ridiculously steep. For that matter, what would you be buying one for?
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 3? Bayonetta 2? ZombiU? Rayman Legends (back when it was a Wii U exclusive)? Project X?
Quote:
Why would we ever agree to something as silly as that? A console's power is one of its most important features, so why would you want to discount them?
Because in the past, the most powerful console has never won.
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
The PS360 versions also have more Daytime levels, on top of the graphics engine and general development being stated to be separate from Wii and PS2 versions.
As far as I'm aware, there are only one or two more.
Quote:
If the visibly different level designs weren't enough to tip you off that the HD console version is a different experience from the Wii and PS2 versions, then I don't know what else to say.
Different level designs do not equal different gameplay, which is what this entire argument is about.
Quote:
What does playing Sonic Rush and Sonic and the Secret Rings have anything to do with Sonic Unleashed having two different versions?
You said Sonic Unleashed for Wii had gameplay like Sonic and the Secret Rings while Sonic Unleashed for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 had gameplay similar to Sonic Rush. That's what it has to do with.
Quote:
All you have confirmed is that you are making generalizations based on your personal experience with the Wii version.
You mean like your generalisation that different level designs equal different gameplay? Please.
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Old 2013-07-23, 20:05   Link #492
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
As far as I'm aware, there are only one or two more.
...What?

For Wii/PS2 day stages, there are:

Windmill Isle Day Stage 1
Windmill Isle Day Stage 2
Cool Edge Day Stage
Dragon Road Day Stage
Savannah Citadel Day Stage
Jungle Joyride Day Stage
Eggmanland Day Stage

Wii/PS2 Night stages:
Windmill Isle Night - Moonlight Town
Windmill Isle Night - Moonsoaked Alleys
Windmill Isle Night - Hill Beneath Starry Skies
Cool Edge Night - The Aurora Snowfields
Cool Edge Night - The Ice Floe
Cool Edge Night - The Temple of Ice
Rooftop Run Night - Alleys of Spagonia
Rooftop Run Night - Jet Black Back Streets
Rooftop Run Night - The Great Aqueduct
Dragon Road Night - The Floating Shrine
Dragon Road Night - Rising Dragon Falls
Dragon Road Night - Path to Darkness
Arid Sands Night - The City of Sand
Arid Sands Night - Scorched Rock
Arid Sands Night - Valley of Spirits
Arid Sands Night - Altar of Oblivion
Jungle Joyride Night - Starry Night
Jungle Joyride Night - Restless coastside
Jungle Joyride Night - Deep Jungle
Jungle Joyride Night - Heavenly Ruins
Eggmanland Night - Infiltration
Eggmanland Night - Robot factory
Eggmanland Night - Beyond the factory
Eggmanland Night - To zero point
Eggmanland Night - Dark Gaia Cauldron


... for a total of 7 day stages, and 25 night stages.


For PS3/360 stages, excluding DLC:

Windmill Isle Day Act 1
Windmill Isle Day Act 2
Rooftop Run Day Act 1
Rooftop Run Day Act 2
Savannah Citadel Act 1
Savannah Citadel Act 2
Cool Edge Day Act 1
Cool Edge Day Act 2
Dragon Road Day Act 1
Dragon Road Day Act 2
Arid Sands Day Act 1
Skyscraper Scamper Day Act 1
Skyscraper Scamper Day Act 2
Jungle Joyride Day Act 1
Jungle Joyride Day Act 2
Eggmanland

Windmill Isle Night Act 1
Windmill Isle Night Act 2
Rooftop Run Night Act 1
Savannah Citadal Night Act 1
Savannah Citadal Night Act 2
Cool Edge Night Act 1
Dragon Road Night Act 1
Dragon Road Night Act 2
Arid Sands Night Act 1
Skyscraper Scamper Night Act 1
Jungle Joyride Night Act 1
Jungle Joyride Night Act 2
Eggmanland

For a total of 17 day stages, 11 night stages.



The only way you could possibly even out the ratio for the Wii version is if you're pedantic enough to count the extraneous missions that require something other than getting to the goal ring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Different level designs do not equal different gameplay, which is what this entire argument is about.

You mean like your generalisation that different level designs equal different gameplay? Please.
A game is a different experience with different level designs, even if the mechanics are more or less the same. Level design is especially important for a game categorized as a platformer, where your movement and reactions kind of depend on the ground you're moving on and the obstacles you face.

Or are you telling me Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic CD are the same game? Or Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure? Come on.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
You said Sonic Unleashed for Wii had gameplay like Sonic and the Secret Rings while Sonic Unleashed for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 had gameplay similar to Sonic Rush. That's what it has to do with.
In an entirely different thread several weeks ago? You are bringing an entirely different argument into the discussion.

I'll say this again: the Wii/PS2 and PS360 versions of Sonic Unleashed are significantly different gaming experiences.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-07-23 at 20:16.
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Old 2013-07-23, 23:59   Link #493
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
OpenGL is a standard, so at least a good chunk of the skills could be reused.
OpenGL is just an API toolset - you still have to tailor it to the hard ware. We're talking about things like clock rates, memory pool allocation, bus speeds of the different interfaces and so on. The Wii U's development tools are also an important consideration. The newness of all of these aspects explains the weakness of the console's launch titles.

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 3? Bayonetta 2? ZombiU? Rayman Legends (back when it was a Wii U exclusive)? Project X?
That's a pretty sorry list. There certainly aren't any big sellers here - I certainly can't see a whole lot of people buying a Wii U for these titles. Especially since most of these aren't even out yet.

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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Because in the past, the most powerful console has never won.
Big deal. Regardless of who "wins" a generation, a console's capabilities have always been important when it comes to subjects like a product's market position. To ignore it is to not care about discussing the subject in a serious manner. Besides, it's not as if anyone's trying to claim that the Wii U has any chance of winning a generation.
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Old 2013-07-24, 09:25   Link #494
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Geez, so much snark is becoming rather toxic in this thread.

Anyways, maybe we should wait to see until 2014 since that's when the biggest heavy-hitter titles like Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros. will be released. Though I'm a little worried that since SSB is also going to be in the 3DS, it'll start "taking away" potential Wii U version sales (unless they buy both).
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Old 2013-07-24, 11:36   Link #495
4Tran
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I don't think that the 3DS version will necessarily hurt the Wii U version. Wii U owners are largely big Nintendo fans, so they're going to be buying it on that platform. Smash Brothers Melee sold about 20 million units on 100 million Wiis, giving us a ratio of 1:5. As the Wii U has a much higher percentage of Nintendo fans, I can see this ratio being much higher - probably 3-4 times as high. Assuming an install base of 3.5 million units, that gives us between 2.1-2.8 million sales, which isn't bad all things considered.

However, Smash Brothers is one of the few games that encourage greater Wii U uptake, and that uptake will be hurt by the availability of the 3DS version. If you've already got a 3DS, then your Smash Brothers fix can be satisfied with a $40 purchase as opposed to spending an extra $350 for a new console.

If Nintendo were smart, they would release the Wii U version a month or two before the 3DS one. By the same token, Nintendo should be releasing Smash Brothers and Mario Kart in early fall this year. It's their only chance to steal some PS4/Xbone thunder before those launch. Releasing in 2014 means that a lot of prospective buyers have already committed their money to the new consoles and so won't be in position to buy a Wii U.
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Old 2013-07-24, 18:43   Link #496
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Originally Posted by darkchibi07 View Post
Anyways, maybe we should wait to see until 2014 since that's when the biggest heavy-hitter titles like Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros. will be released. Though I'm a little worried that since SSB is also going to be in the 3DS, it'll start "taking away" potential Wii U version sales (unless they buy both).
A second analog stick is pretty important. I would get the WiiU version just for access to a better controller, despite already having a 3DS.

There's also the issue of loading times for the 3DS wireless multiplayer when connecting. However minor it may be, it doesn't compare to just plugging 2-4 controllers into the console and playing as many matches as you'd like without any breaks.

Most if not all fighting games are meant to be enjoyed on a big screen (arcade/console). Arc System Works has released BlazBlue on the PSP and Vita on multiple occasions, and Capcom has released Super Street Fighter IV on the 3DS. The handheld versions don't make a very large portion of sales.
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Old 2013-07-24, 18:49   Link #497
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
...What?

For Wii/PS2 day stages, there are:

(snip)


... for a total of 7 day stages, and 25 night stages.


For PS3/360 stages, excluding DLC:

(snip)

For a total of 17 day stages, 11 night stages.
Okay, you got me there.
Quote:
A game is a different experience with different level designs, even if the mechanics are more or less the same.
But that's not what we were arguing about.
Quote:
In an entirely different thread several weeks ago? You are bringing an entirely different argument into the discussion.
No, I'm not. It's the argument we started with and the one I've been trying to discuss. You are the one who has been trying to change the argument because you're obviously wrong about Sonic Unleashed (Wii) playing like Sonic and the Secret Rings.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
OpenGL is just an API toolset - you still have to tailor it to the hard ware.
Which is nothing game developers have to worry about. That's the entire point of an API. What you're describing is the manufacturer's job.
Quote:
That's a pretty sorry list. There certainly aren't any big sellers here
Don't change the argument. You were asking what people would buy a Wii U for, not what they bought for it in the end.
Quote:
Big deal.
Yes, it is a big deal. It shows that making your console the most powerful one on the market doesn't pay off, which is the point I'm making.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Smash Brothers Melee sold about 20 million units on 100 million Wiis, giving us a ratio of 1:5.
That's not possible, as Smash Bros. Melee is not a Wii game.
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Old 2013-07-25, 00:55   Link #498
Westlo
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Yes, it is a big deal. It shows that making your console the most powerful one on the market doesn't pay off, which is the point I'm making.
No, what doesn't pay off is making a tablet like controller trying to app smartphones, yet even your best teams have no idea how to use it (It's a HORN IN Mario Kart, #gamechanger) and the cost of said tablet puts your console $50 below the price of the incoming Ps4.

Because in the past, the most powerful console has never won.

The SNES wasn't more powerful than the Megadrive/Genesis? Or are we seriously adding the Neogeo "Home Arcade" into the mix?

N64 dropped the ball because Nintendo were greedy fuckers and Japanese third companies couldn't wait to run away from them. They finished 3rd in Japan that gen, Saturn dominated it, I think it 5x as many games released.

But the PSX was more powerful than the Saturn, to say power didn't help would be untrue, and CD allowed the PSX to have the impression/illusion of being more powerful through pre rendered backgrounds and fmv clips, case in point Final Fantasy 7.

The Dreamcast got overwhelmed by a superior PS2, the Xbox was never a factor that gen, no matter how good it was and gamecube was what it was.

Wii won because of motion controls and Wii Sports period. 2nd and 3rd place consoles this gen by themselves outsold the combined runner ups of the last few gens. It's not like Sony or MS lost as bad as Nintendo did with the N64 and Gamecube.
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Old 2013-07-25, 09:52   Link #499
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The SNES wasn't more powerful than the Megadrive/Genesis? Or are we seriously adding the Neogeo "Home Arcade" into the mix?
Depends how you look at it. I'm pretty sure that the 68000 was faster than the 5A22, you can argue about the VDP and the PPU. In some instances the MD can edge out the SFC and reverse is also true. But in simple terms, the snes wasn't more powerful than the MD. However you can probably say that the snes was designed to act more efficiently.
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Old 2013-07-25, 15:51   Link #500
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Originally Posted by Sides View Post
Depends how you look at it. I'm pretty sure that the 68000 was faster than the 5A22, you can argue about the VDP and the PPU. In some instances the MD can edge out the SFC and reverse is also true. But in simple terms, the snes wasn't more powerful than the MD. However you can probably say that the snes was designed to act more efficiently.
As a Sega fanboy during the 90s I can accept that interpretation of BLAST PROCESSING!!!
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