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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Ratings
Perfect 10 274 67.49%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 70 17.24%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 40 9.85%
7 out of 10 : Good 14 3.45%
6 out of 10 : Average 6 1.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.25%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-04-21, 22:00   Link #201
DasDingus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeniselv View Post
Quote:
Spoiler for Events of ep12:
sayaka´s demise states that they die.
I just rewatched the sequence with Madoka removing the corrupted soul gems and saw that the girls she saves from becoming witches simply disappear. I just missed that the first time through. You're correct.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:03   Link #202
Helmet-kun
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Spoiler for @Kaijo:
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:05   Link #203
Hagoshod
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Quote:
We saw in episode 10 that she was gaining power through each iteration.
No, we didn't see that.

Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DasDingus View Post
karmic debt
This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Spoiler for end:
I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:07   Link #204
zeniselv
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other that the karmic debt theres also what kyubee tells madoka, that she could get very powerful depending on her wish.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:08   Link #205
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that
Spoiler:
Yes but it's still not close to a happy/fluffy ending to me.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:12   Link #206
MeoTwister5
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I'm... probably going to have to agree with Kaijo and Klash on this. One massive grandiose wish that is effective both retrograde and anterograde. Not denying that the entire finale was a blast, but Madoka's sudden epiphany was a bit hard to swallow given how she was the very definition of a walking cloud of gloom and doom for the last 8 episodes. While her wish to change everything is a bit questionable considering how it does reveal that there may be no intrinsic limits to the entire system Inkyubeytor's race has set and that it seems no one has bothered to try and realize how to manipulate the system away from this current setup, one could probably argue that it's simply because the capacity of the wish to create such an effect is tied to the one making the wish, and only Madoka has the intrinsic power to affect a wish this big.

So yes she proves her Messiah character trait in the finale, but it still felt a bit deus ex machina given how massively powered she is. It's been proven she could practically God Mode the final boss that is Walpurgisnacht, but now with the extension that she can rewrite the entire system itself at the cost of her own human mortality. If this were equivalent exchange than that alone should prove just how massively powerful she is. For a show that was most likely grounded on Madoka trying to earn her happy/bittersweet ending against Sisyphean odds, it felt a tad bit too easy conclusion on her part. She was crucified on the altar of humanity at the last minute when other avenues could have been explored.

Not a bad ending, not an amazing one, but a very good one. Certainly doesn't really match the hefty expectations left on me by the previous 10 episodes, but it left me satisfied, so I can accept that.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:13   Link #207
omimon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
No, we didn't see that.

Spoiler:


This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing.


I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that
Spoiler:
I think you need to re-watch episode 10. In timeline one where Homura came from Madoka was killed by WN and didn't turn into a witch. In timeline 2 she survives the fight but turns witch later on and in timeline 4 she was able to kill it in one shot. Killed->Survives->Survives->Oneshot Kill, I mean she was CLEARLY getting stronger every time and if you don't see this then I got nothing to say.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:14   Link #208
Kagayaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
No, we didn't see that.

Spoiler:


This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing.


I'm pretty sure anyone would agree that
Spoiler:
Well some people saw that coming. And you didn't like it. (For the record, I didn't believe them either) So I guess it's not surprising you're upset.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...69#post3525369

I liked the ending though, and it didn't seem to come out of nowhere for me.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:14   Link #209
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While the ending settles a lot of questions, it seems like it will spawn an even larger amount of debates.

Spoiler for Ending:
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:16   Link #210
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
Spoiler for @Kaijo:
There is that; when you give up your life, there are others who will be affected. But ultimately, we all die someday, and wanting someone to stay alive is selfish. WE will be affected if they die, because WE will feel sad.

Ultimately, our life is ours alone, and we have to choose what to do with it. Not saying it's an easy or clear-cut choice, but it's not a simple good or bad one, either. Soldiers in wartime choose to give up their lives to save their comrades, despite having friends and family back home. Should we tell them not to jump on that grenade, then?

It's not an easy choice. It is, however, a selfless one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeniselv View Post
other that the karmic debt theres also what kyubee tells madoka, that she could get very powerful depending on her wish.
The problem is (and I get what Hagoshod is saying), is that was this timeline. Even as far back as timeline 1, it was shown that Madoka can take down Walpurgis alone. Watching what Homura was doing just now in ep 11, it really does feel like Madoka had the same power all along.

In episode 2, Kyube just says she's special, and then elaborates later on that she has massive amounts of power, but doesn't know why. But none of the timelines showed her getting any stronger. They showed her being the exact same strength. So regardless of explanation, it does feel like a bit of an asspull for her to suddenly go super Goddess WMD level.

Part of the problem also, is that we never saw what Madoka wished for in any of those other timelines, so it is hard to place an appropriate mark on just how much the wish affects the power level.

But I get the feeling that the main problem, is that they just didn't show it well enough. There is only 12 episodes, so obviously there is a time issue to show everything. The series would have been well served by stretching it out a couple more episodes, to properly show more of Homura's timeloops, and do a better job of showing Madoka getting more powerful. However, when she already has the power to single-handily take down Walpurgis, well, it's harder to accurately show a power increase beyond that.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:18   Link #211
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It makes for an interesting data point. People were talking about selfishness and selflessness awhile ago, with respect to Sayaka's wish. The idea that she was selfish, came from the idea that she only wished Kamijou's hand healed because she wanted a chance with him. I was one of the ones that argued that she gave up almost her entire life to heal his hand so he could have a chance at happiness, no matter how much it might hurt her.

So, here we are again, and she chooses to die to keep his hand healed. If she truly were selfish, she might choose not to do that in order to still have a chance with him. "If I can't be with him, then I won't heal his hand" kind of thing.

So while it might seem idiotic from one angle, I'd have to say it was fairly noble from another angle. While I personally don't believe in true altruism, believing instead that every decision and act has a selfish component, even I have to admit that's as pretty damn selfless as you're going to get.

We can argue that giving up your life so that someone's hand can be healed, might be stupid. But from one point of view, Kamijou saw his life as over because he couldn't do what he loved. She may very well have died to save his life.

Although, given her sacrifices in the show, I really wanted a better end for her, to see her end up with Kamijou. But, too much author meddling means she's doomed.
Well I'll be! It would seem we've found something we can agree with Kaijo...Sayaka sacrifice while may seem unnecessary by some really need to consider the fact that she really and truly loved Kamijou. It was this love that was the bases of her wish from the very beginning so naturally Sayaka would never do anything selfish to Kamijou such as deny him his happiness because she didn't get what she may have secretly wanted.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:18   Link #212
omimon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouhitori View Post
While the ending settles a lot of questions, it seems like it will spawn an even larger amount of debates.

Spoiler for Ending:
I think they were on the "other side".
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:20   Link #213
DasDingus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
No, we didn't see that.

Spoiler:
Spoiler:


Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about with the "Concepts that come out of nowhere five seconds before the ending to justify the ending" thing
I don't agree that this came out of nowhere, nor that it was particularly close to the ending. We knew that Madoka had the potential to be more powerful than any other girl but we didn't know why. There had to be some kind of why behind this and I don't feel that karmic debt is any more arbitrary than any number of possible explanations. As for the timing, this couldn't just be revealed to us early on because we needed to see Homura's plight first. It was still revealed with a good 30+ minutes of show remaining so I think that your characterization of the reveal relative to the overall plot is misleading. I'm forced to wonder if you'd make this argument had 11 and 12 aired a week apart.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:35   Link #214
Solace
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Okay, finally watched the subbed version. Time for some thoughts.

First off, that was a nice and clean ending, with small ambiguous stuff left to ponder when you're done watching. I didn't feel anything was contrived or unexplainable. Second, Gen....you're a bastard. I love you. Thank you for the gift of a moving story with a heartfelt ending.

So, Madoka becomes a goddess eh? Seems about right. I'm sure her final words to Homura about meeting again are literal...she just earned her powers and she's got a lot of work to do, time and space are infinite y'know.

I loved the wish. It was pretty close to how I surmised things would be resolved, and I loved that Kyubey was forced to eat it. YEAH! I loved his reaction: THIS IS TREASON! It's funny how true the interviews were: Kyubey was Kyubey until the very end.

Mami and Kyoko are saved. Not bad. I suspect the reason we don't see them in the end is because Homura has become a psuedo avatar of Madoka, basically a "mega" Magical Girl with few repercussions. Her limitless drive makes her the perfect weapon to defend humanity against grief and despair for all time. While Madoka is eradicating Witches, she's cleaning up the universe. Nice.

I think the new system, where Magical Girls "disappear" when they exhaust their magic, is something the audience are meant to interpret how we see fit. Some of us might believe they're gone for good, some of us might see them being reborn or sent to heaven, etc. I think being reborn is the route I'll go in believing their fates. Madoka and Sayaka's final meeting didn't seem all that "final".

I know some will rage at Sayaka's decision, but to me it felt right. It's what she really wanted, what she came to terms with. She settled her regrets by facing her true self. A fitting way for her character to exit the stage.

The music and animation were gorgeous. There were some animation errors, but I was so immersed I hardly noticed them.

If anyone does think this ending is bittersweet, consider this: Madoka was supposed to be erased completely from mortal existence. Clearly this is not the case, even if Madoka has become something beyond human. Also consider that the story deals heavily in alternate universes/timelines. Madoka didn't become a goddess in all of them, and the chances a mortal Madoka exists in most of them are extremely large.

Simply stated, the story ends in a way that you can pull your own hopes and dreams from it, and feel rewarded for investing your time in it. It's a rare feat, anime or otherwise.

10/10
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:44   Link #215
wisteria233
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Wow, I'm truly satisfied with how the series ended.

Though to answer the question of people saying that Madoka's epiphany and power came out of no where, it didn't. It was said multiple times that the strength of the magical girl depends on their wish, and that Madoka had the ability to become the strongest magical girl, and therefore the strongest witch. Realizing that Madoka's wish would amount to her becoming a god was really just putting two and two together, with the simple question "what kind of wish could turn someone into a god, while simultaneously ridding the world of witches?". Besides that it was explained that through Homura's interference Madoka has experienced things and learned the full truth behind Kyuubey and the incubators, before she even formed a contract with him, giving her time to actually seriously contemplate what she wanted to wish for.

So by the time episode 11-12 role around Madoka has essentially learned all there is to know about witches, magical girls, and the incubators, plus she has been given the time to think about possible loopholes to her wish.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:44   Link #216
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Am I the only one that was surprised the Walpurgus night didn't turn out to be Homura? I'm sure I'm not the only one who put giant clockwork-engine-witch and Time-mage together.

I agree with the disappointing feeling seeing the (though kind of expected it) deus-ex-machina, not in the way that it was done, but moreso in the fact that it's being done more and more often and has become quite stale IMO.

My only issue with the ending is that the inhabitants of the earth remained nearly completely unchanged even though the universe went through a literal phase shift. I understand why they did it, but the sci-fi obsessed geek in me just knows all too well how greatly something like that would have affected causality /endnerdrant

TLR version: Anyone else want to see 12 episodes of Homura fighting bakemono/oni/youkai now? *raises hand*
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:47   Link #217
Makender
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I'm having trouble understanding why people are saying that Sayaka had a choice in the matter of deciding Kamijou's fate. The impression I got was that Sayaka had no choice but to follow along that particular line as her fate to become a witch was inevitable and Madoka simply gave her a relatively happy ending by allowing her to not have to live in regret and despair as a witch. There was no selflessness on her part. She was simply given that ending by Madoka.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:52   Link #218
DasDingus
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Am I the only one that was surprised the Walpurgus night didn't turn out to be Homura? I'm sure I'm not the only one who put giant clockwork-engine-witch and Time-mage together.
The fact that in the first timeline Homura wasn't even a Magical Girl when the Walpurgis showed up plus the fact that she fights the Walpurgis in all the subsequent timelines means it would have required some serious plot gymnastics to pull that one off.
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:54   Link #219
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Spoiler for Events of ep12:
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-04-21, 22:58   Link #220
serenade_beta
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Hmm... Well, at least it finally ends.
To be honest, I wasn't really that happy with the end, since in the end, Madoka still becomes a magical girl and it is one of those "And our fight continues!"-type of end.
However, despite the end not being that good, it was still a very solid and satisfying end. And that is good.
In general, I just guess I got my hopes up on an epic ending, and just got a good ending and am feeling disappointed about it.

I guess one complaint is that the whole stuff like the mental tea party and the drama involving the teacher and parent didn't end up making me feel much at all. I guess it is better to have it than not though... I don't care either way.

It's just the way this story is and it is a fantasy, but I have to laugh a little at using historical figures like Jeanne. 'Cause it ain't true!


But anyways and all of that, I think it was a go... Wait, might as well wait until the final impressions thread comes out.
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