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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Ratings
Perfect 10 274 67.49%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 70 17.24%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 40 9.85%
7 out of 10 : Good 14 3.45%
6 out of 10 : Average 6 1.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.25%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-04-24, 10:56   Link #881
Sheba
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This was my first thought when I had seen the replacements for the Grief Seeds.
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Old 2011-04-24, 11:20   Link #882
deadsea
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Does anyone else see QB´s face here?
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-04-24, 11:36   Link #883
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I still believe/hope that we might get some further insight into WalpurgisNacht via the witch cards Shaft has been creating though. After all, it seems almost impossible that Shaft or Urobochi don't have some sort of lore sitting in the back of their heads somewhere.
Why not? I can't imagine the writers would miss the chance for having some fun here. It's evidently not central to story, since we don't learn this backstory during the series itself. It's sufficient that we think WN to be a very powerful witch.

On reflection, if WN is an agglomeration of witches, then perhaps Urobuchi doesn't want us to know that within the show. If we know it, so too does Madoka, and then Madoka's wish reflects her technical knowledge about WN, rather than her radical sympathy for witches everywhere and when.

That is why the complaints on this board about why Madoka doesn't wish away witches in the second episode or whatever are missing the point. The show is not about dealing with WN, or fixing the MG system. All these plot details are dramatic staging for Madoka's characterization, to allow the series' climax to underscore the extraordinary sympathy Madoka demonstrates.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
But more ideologically, more empathetically speaking I think it's very significant, because even if there is a price to be paid for the hope each Puella Magi carries, at least in the end they know what that cost is and that there is a certain end to bearing it (the end of their own life). To trade one's life in order for just one boy's arm to be healed--in this world, at least Sayaka (and all those other girls, with all those other wishes) get one final chance to decide if it was really worth it. And all the same to the rest of us, in the end what that question really comes down to is 'For the price we humans pay, is it worth it to have lived at all?' The previous arrangement being--that if one ever allowed despair or regret in their heart they would be bound by that grief to spread suffering forever--to essentially be condemned by fate to curse the remainder of all life or joy or meaning--then certainly I find that to answer the affirmative in the new system to be a remarkable release and freedom.
You're right, of course. Now the good the MGs accomplish is unequivocal, and is not undermined by their after career as witches. In that sense hope becomes real, and not the paradoxical avenue to its own eventual negation.

Considering this apart from the show, I think it is true to life, at least in the sense that good done is simply and unequivocally good. You feed a hungry person, or give medical care to a sick person, that person is fed, or made well, and that is good once and for all, regardless of context. Events down the road don't make a difference to the good we actually do.

Still, the original version of the MG system spoke directly to the pathos of a wish, at the inevitable distortion of a life given over to the fulfillment of a single purpose. No matter how well-intentioned, no matter what good it accomplishes, such a life is a diminution of humanity. The inevitable despair and the aftermath of being a witch were fitting reflections of the self-mutilation bound up in an MG's wish.

I think the new system retains that pathos, but makes it immanent in the life of the MG herself. Since she now has real hope, she can dedicate herself to the work of being an MG without end. Thus we have the figure of Homura, living the life of an MG without any trajectory, existing perpetually in the war against demons, enabled to do so precisely since she has hope, and Madoka's voice encouraging her, to go on and on and on. In Homura's words, "In this world that can't be saved, all the sorrow and hatred continue on. / Yet, the world is a place she tried to protect. / I remember that. I won't forget that no matter what. / So I'll fight on." Hope becomes that which allows Homura to keep going, even though there is no end to her war against demons.

The world is worth saving, even though it can't be saved. Hope is real, even though it has no final victory. Between these unquestionable realities, Homura lives the impossible life of Sisyphus, sustained by her memory of Madoka. Is this a life worth living? Thanks to her hope and memory, Homura will say "yes," but I think we still have to ask. I am not so sure.

The figure of Homura at the conclusion seems to me an ambivalent one, one that potentially deconstructs the concept of hope altogether.

Apologies for being a wet blanket amid the joyous paeans to hope. Personally, I hate the stupid negativity in the deconstructive turn: it is the academic version of the useless nitpicking that has beset these boards in the last few days. But Homura at the end just bothers me. I'd be interested to hear what you think. What am I missing?


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
But as I perceive our natural world to be one of compensatory logic or necessary suffering in the first place, this is how I can perceive any 'bitterness' of the conclusion to be only natural, and the rest of it genuinely inspirational. Or rather--it is because the show reveals itself to be accepting of and consciously bound by these genuine limitations of reality that I am even able to find it practically inspiring at all. So despite any of the lingering struggles or impossibilities, it is they that actually make the positive message all the more convincing.
Yes. Hope in the face of real (as opposed to made-up, or all-too-easily overcome) suffering is genuinely inspirational. One thinks of ML King's speeches, for example, which are moving just for this reason.

I was particularly struck by QB's description of human history as a "plethora of tears." The show insists that we accept that history on its own terms, and not sugar-coat it in any way. That applies particularly to Madoka's later revision of the universe: there is no idea that history can cease being a chronicle of human suffering. Joan still burns at the stake. The little Jewish girl is still on board the cattle-car to Auschwitz. What is different of course is the context of hope that now infuses this history. So really all Madoka accomplishes is what the show itself teaches us: to understand that human history is made possible by individual persons' hope even in the face of the most terrible crimes human beings have rendered upon each other. In truth, Madoka changes nothing--but our understanding. With that understanding, we gain the capacity to stand with Joan, or the girl on the train, or with any of our other ancestors whose tears make up our history. I find this message to be genuinely moving.

I wanted to go back to your first post:

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Miracles can happen. See Kamijou’s successful healing, or the show’s ending. The more important/salient points to take from that though are to make sure you know what you’re really wishing for, and to be prepared to pay the cost for it. If you’re willing to accept that responsibility and those burdens, then the show’s theme is indeed that No, it’s not wrong to hope and believe in things. An agreeable and inspirational moral to live by, and one that is reinforced by both Sayaka and Madoka’s fates respectively.
Yes. But it is not indiscriminate hope that distinguishes Madoka. Hope is not per se good, just since there are people who hope for terrible things. What is striking about Madoka's wish is its scope of sympathy. Madoka wants to save, not just Sayaka, or just her circle of friends, or just the people threatened by WN, but witches.

Think about it. It is a remarkable turn. Witches are the unquestioned antagonists of MGs throughout the series. Even when the girls find out the truth about the system, their concern is naturally for themselves, and for their fates. Even Homura, who has spent cycle upon cycle with the knowledge about MGs and witches, focuses her concern on Madoka exclusively, and kills witches without compunction. We only get the first glimmer of sympathy for witches when Kyoko and Madoka try to rescue Sayaka. But even there they are just trying to get their friend back.

But now, Madoka acts on behalf of all witches everywhere and of every time. It's important to stress the sentimentality of her wish: "I don't want to let all those girls cry. / All those Mahou Shoujos who believed in their hope and fought against witches / I want them to live with smiles on their faces." This sentimentality lets us know that Madoka wishes not just to fix the MG system, but expresses her wish out of a genuine human sympathy for the girls-turned-witches. This is an extraordinary moment of radical moral imagination. I continue to be amazed by it. If you want to know why Madoka gets her name on the title of the series, this moment is why.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
What the show ... shows is that Sayaka *did* start out with altruistic feelings and intentions, but came to regret them and see herself as a fool once they caused her personal loss and suffering. Madoka reminded Sayaka of the good intentions she originally held, and it was this act in itself which enabled her to no longer see her past actions as pointless foolishness. Thus, it was by showing Sayaka that the ‘hope’ with which she originally made her wish was not completely meaningless, that Sayaka managed to move on peacefully.
I love what you say about Sayaka and Madoka here. You explain the scene beautifully. Your explanation helps us to understand better I think what Madoka's new role is in the revised cosmos, and what she means when she tells Homura in farewell that she "has to go meet everyone." In part, she is a kind of angel of magical girls, who appears at the last moment to take aware the impurity of their soul gems and to allow them a normal human death. But, as this scene shows, she is also a mediator between life and death, who shows the dying the good they have done, saving them from despair, and allowing them to die peacefully. The lyrics of the particular musical piece Kyosuke plays--Ave Maria--seems to me to underline this role: "Mary, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." In this scene with Sayaka, as your explanation makes clear, Madoka fufills Mary's intercessory role, without of course invoking Christian theology.

I'm out of time again. Maybe next time I'll get back to the idea of Madoka's wish as the conclusion. I've got to, since I think everyone who is bashing Junko for "letting" Madoka go out into the storm are just not getting what that scene is about.
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:08   Link #884
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I understand that Junko must let her daughter go on the basis of good faith. Had the opposite happen with Junko forbidding Madoka to go, only for her to leave in secret anyway, it would have contradicted what Madoka stood for, and Junko's motherly role as Madoka's supporter. However, from a logical standpoint, I don't see how a concerned mother could let her daughter go.
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:10   Link #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post

I'm out of time again. Maybe next time I'll get back to the idea of Madoka's wish as the conclusion. I've got to, since I think everyone who is bashing Junko for "letting" Madoka go out into the storm are just not getting what that scene is about.
No, I think that many of us who are critical of that scene "get" what that scene is about, but that doesn't make Junko's actions any less unrealistic when we consider how most concerned mothers in her position would handle a situation like that one.

Madoka Magica is not simply theater of the mind, where characters and their interactions are strictly intended to convey certain ideas, messages, or themes.

This is a true narrative, a real story. It's characters, imo, should be approached as we would approach actual human beings (or aliens, in Kyubey's case), and their actions should ideally make sense at a human level, and not only at an abstract level. In other words, the actions of the teenage girl characters should be ones that we can imagine real life teenage girls taking themselves if they were placed in the positions of Madoka, Homura, Sayaka, etc...

Likewise, the actions of Junko should be ones that we can imagine real life mothers taking themselves if they were placed in Junko's position.

By and large, I think the anime is successful here, to its credit. I have only a few quibbles here.

However, the actions of Junko in Episode 11 is one such quibble, as those actions are very difficult to swallow a real life concerned mother taking. When it comes to Junko, Gen is sacrificing believable characterization in order to, yes, accentuate certain ideas and themes. Junko's final meeting with her daughter, Madoka, is indeed intended to have a deeper meaning behind it, at a literary interpretation level. I respect the perhaps inevitable trade-off that Gen is engaging in here, but it's not ideal.
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:12   Link #886
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I understand that Junko must let her daughter go on the basis of good faith. Had the opposite happen with Junko forbidding Madoka to go, only for her to leave in secret anyway, it would have contradicted what Madoka stood for, and Junko's motherly role as Madoka's supporter. However, from a logical standpoint, I don't see how a concerned mother could let her daughter go.
Like I said earlier, I guess we just need to roll our eyes and move on. Unrealistically accepting parents isn't a new concept in anime, and while it seems a bit more blatant in a show that focuses on the characters far more than the average show, it isn't any less believable than it is anywhere else.

Edit: Ninja'd =/ And Triple R worded it far better than I did, too.

Last edited by Akashin; 2011-04-24 at 12:15. Reason: Ninja Edit
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:24   Link #887
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Like I said earlier, I guess we just need to roll our eyes and move on. Unrealistically accepting parents isn't a new concept in anime, and while it seems a bit more blatant in a show that focuses on the characters far more than the average show, it isn't any less believable than it is anywhere else.
It is only a minor issue. Worth mentioning, but not something I'll weigh heavily against this anime if/when series review time comes up.

As you say, Madoka Magica is hardly the only anime guilty of this, and at least in Madoka's case, it's guilty of it for a good reason (whereas in some other cases, it's purely a matter of bad writing ).

This isn't bad writing, per se. This is Gen putting drama and theme ahead of characterization. As a fanfic writer, I've done that before - stretch characters in order to get a central idea across, or further develop it.
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:26   Link #888
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When Walpurgis Night appears, the green elephants are pulling it ropes with small banners.

The first magical girl (the one wearing green) that Madoka "heals" has banners on the place around her, similar to the banners on the elephant ropes..
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:28   Link #889
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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
When Walpurgis Night appears, the green elephants are pulling it ropes with small banners.

The first magical girl (the one wearing green) that Madoka "heals" has banners on the place around her, similar to the banners on the elephant ropes..
Nice pick-up!

That supports the theory that Walpurgis Night is an odd fusion of witches.
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:30   Link #890
Akashin
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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
When Walpurgis Night appears, the green elephants are pulling it ropes with small banners.

The first magical girl (the one wearing green) that Madoka "heals" has banners on the place around her, similar to the banners on the elephant ropes..
You know, I should probably rewatch that scene. When I watched that scene the first time I took that girl to be Gertrud, and the one after to be Charlotte. =/ Since I haven't seen similar opinions pop up anywhere, I can't help but feel I'm the one looking at them incorrectly.

Edit: Just rewatched it, and in hindsight I'm not sure why I made a connection to either Witch. But you are indeed correct about the banners; nice catch.

Last edited by Akashin; 2011-04-24 at 12:38. Reason: Correcting myself
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:48   Link #891
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i'm rewatching this scene when junko pulled madoka, the subs says mom asked where madoka's going. madoka's reply according to the subs is "mama". i maxed my volume and replayed it again and again but it sounds more really like "homu". i maybe just having hearing problems, but if "homu" is correct then there might be a connection that madoka uttered that word when homu appeared on her window in tl4.

when the conversation ended with "arigatou mama". the mama is clearer than the first.
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Old 2011-04-24, 12:57   Link #892
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Why not? I can't imagine the writers would miss the chance for having some fun here. It's evidently not central to story, since we don't learn this backstory during the series itself. It's sufficient that we think WN to be a very powerful witch.
I disagree. WN being so incredibly strong was the reason Madoka had to contract no matter what, making the climax possible, so I feel there was an actual need to know WHY WN was that strong. It's that no explained then WN is reduced to a cheap plot device purposely put there by the author to make the story work, and that just weak writing; WN should be explained accordingly so the author can remain as invisible as possible, as it should be for any good narrative.

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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
I think the new system retains that pathos, but makes it immanent in the life of the MG herself. Since she now has real hope, she can dedicate herself to the work of being an MG without end. Thus we have the figure of Homura, living the life of an MG without any trajectory, existing perpetually in the war against demons, enabled to do so precisely since she has hope, and Madoka's voice encouraging her, to go on and on and on. In Homura's words, "In this world that can't be saved, all the sorrow and hatred continue on. / Yet, the world is a place she tried to protect. / I remember that. I won't forget that no matter what. / So I'll fight on." Hope becomes that which allows Homura to keep going, even though there is no end to her war against demons.

The world is worth saving, even though it can't be saved. Hope is real, even though it has no final victory.
This is interesting. Do you realize Homura can derive hope from Madoka's act because she remembers it happening? Let see a clear example of this in real life:

Christians believe Jesus sacrificed for them. Because they know, or at least believe, this happened, they can derive hope from it to live their lives. Hope is in the conscious or even unconscious act of thinking "he did so much for me so I should keep going".

And that's one of the problems with Madoka's sacrifice. Yes, she prevents MGs going witch, but most MGs never knew they were going to become witches while they were active. You can see this clearly by how surprised QB is about Homura knowing this (ep9). So going witch was never a cause for MGs losing hope during their lives, except at the very very end. To sum up, what Madoka's wish provide is a peaceful dead, but doesn't really improve their active time, because, unlike the Christians, MGs don't really know Madoka did this for them, and so they can not derive hope from that knowledge or belief during their lives as Christians would do.

They only one how can really derive hope from Madoka's sacrifice is Homura, because she remembers. That's why she can keep going, whereas all the other MGs in the world probably ended up succumbing to despair over time.

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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
The figure of Homura at the conclusion seems to me an ambivalent one, one that potentially deconstructs the concept of hope altogether.
I think of that as the Karmic balance QB talked about, acting on Homura. This scene probably happens many years in the future, and it seems she's the only MG alive. If this the case, it can be said that Homura's burden increased as other MGs perished and she was the only one left behind to fight the monsters. By the Karmic balance, her powers then should increase and evolve to counterbalance that burden.

If that's true, then it would also explain how she eventually managed to sort of communicate with Madoka, even though she doesn't exist in this plain of existence.

Then again, probably Gen didn't really thought this through that much, as it seems that is his MO for anything he doesn't deem "relevant to the story".

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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
I've got to, since I think everyone who is bashing Junko for "letting" Madoka go out into the storm are just not getting what that scene is about.
That's a bit arrogant of you. They do understand, I think, but just because the scene has an important thematic message doesn't mean they should overlook the fact that from an immediate logical stand point the scene is weak. If you strip the scene fromm its thematic value, then what you got is a mother who lets her child go into a typhoon, which makes no sense at all. The point is that thematic relevance doesn't excuse the author from logical plausibility. That scene is just not plausible.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-04-24 at 13:22.
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Old 2011-04-24, 13:05   Link #893
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I understand that Junko must let her daughter go on the basis of good faith. Had the opposite happen with Junko forbidding Madoka to go, only for her to leave in secret anyway, it would have contradicted what Madoka stood for, and Junko's motherly role as Madoka's supporter. However, from a logical standpoint, I don't see how a concerned mother could let her daughter go.
Yeah, I would've liked to see a struggle between Madoka and her mom, similar to the one Tom Cruise and Justin Chatwin had when they parted in War of the Worlds lol
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Old 2011-04-24, 13:21   Link #894
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No, I think that many of us who are critical of that scene "get" what that scene is about, but that doesn't make Junko's actions any less unrealistic when we consider how most concerned mothers in her position would handle a situation like that one.

Madoka Magica is not simply theater of the mind, where characters and their interactions are strictly intended to convey certain ideas, messages, or themes.

This is a true narrative, a real story. It's characters, imo, should be approached as we would approach actual human beings (or aliens, in Kyubey's case), and their actions should ideally make sense at a human level, and not only at an abstract level. In other words, the actions of the teenage girl characters should be ones that we can imagine real life teenage girls taking themselves if they were placed in the positions of Madoka, Homura, Sayaka, etc...

Likewise, the actions of Junko should be ones that we can imagine real life mothers taking themselves if they were placed in Junko's position.

By and large, I think the anime is successful here, to its credit. I have only a few quibbles here.

However, the actions of Junko in Episode 11 is one such quibble, as those actions are very difficult to swallow a real life concerned mother taking. When it comes to Junko, Gen is sacrificing believable characterization in order to, yes, accentuate certain ideas and themes. Junko's final meeting with her daughter, Madoka, is indeed intended to have a deeper meaning behind it, at a literary interpretation level. I respect the perhaps inevitable trade-off that Gen is engaging in here, but it's not ideal.
This is well and fairly expressed.

The issue is, is Madoka at this point an adult or not an adult? Within the context of the story, she is. Within the context of her conversation with her mother, her mother realizes that she is.

What is at stake for Junko is not simply Madoka herself, but, as Madoka reminds her, Junko's own confidence in herself as a mother in having raised Madoka well, and Junko's respect for the qualities she has endeavored to instill in Madoka: "You told me you raised me up to be a good person. / I don't lie. I don't do bad things. / Will you believe in me now, too? / Will you think that I'm doing the right thing?" Madoka's appeal is to the core of her mother's values, and Junko cannot other than affirm them. In the end, she pushes Madoka forward on her way.

If Junko understands that her daughter is an adult, and trusts her when she says that only she can protect everyone now, then her decision is the right one. I appreciate you find it unbelievable, in the context of real-life mothers, but I think here you are insisting that your own cultural context must be the standard by which we evaluate the anime. In other times and other places, fifteen year olds have had to shoulder all the burdens of adulthood. We do this regularly even in America today--as when we try juveniles as adults for serious crimes.

Triple R, I think if you understand Madoka to be an adult at this moment, then you have to mean it. The contradiction you notice is not--in my opinion!--in the anime, but between yourself and the anime.

EDIT: For Kazu-kun:

Sorry, I guess the way I put it sounds arrogant, but I mean what I say, but not arrogantly. I don't think you or Triple_R are "getting" the fact that Junko sees Madoka as an adult, and acts accordingly and appropriately. While you understand the thematic message, the image of "a mother who lets her child go into a typhoon" is shutting down your response to what the anime is saying. It is in that sense I think you're not "getting" it, and I don't think you'd disagree with me. I'm not making a judgment on your level of understanding, but an observation about your response to the episode, where a cultural preconception--no mother can responsibly allow her teenage daughter to go into a typhoon--is trumping your own rational understanding of the anime.

Last edited by hyperborealis; 2011-04-24 at 13:47.
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Old 2011-04-24, 13:36   Link #895
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I would also like to restate hyperborealis's point that Witches are not necessarily composed of only one magical girl for the sake of clarifying and to disprove any remaining Walpurgis Night = Homura hypotheses out there.

The planet eating Witch is the example. It was formed when Madoka took the grief of every magical girl in the world on the verge of falling. The Witch was never Madoka herself, but an amalagmate of many grieving Puella Magi. With the prevalence of the system throughout history, there is enough evidence to conclude that Walpurgis Night is not Homura, but just one of many calamities that befall the world from an accumulation of pre-existing grief.
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Old 2011-04-24, 13:40   Link #896
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I would also like to restate hyperborealis's point that Witches are not necessarily composed of only one magical girl for the sake of clarifying and to disprove any remaining Walpurgis Night = Homura hypotheses out there.

The planet eating Witch is the example. It was formed when Madoka took the grief of every magical girl in the world on the verge of falling. The Witch was never Madoka herself, but an amalagmate of many grieving Puella Magi. With the prevalence of the system throughout history, there is enough evidence to conclude that Walpurgis Night is not Homura, but just one of many calamities that befall the world from an accumulation of pre-existing grief.
Interesting theory. But the fact remains that we don't know either way. Its nature wasn't explained, and it should have been, since without WN we wouln't have any climax to begin with.
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Old 2011-04-24, 13:42   Link #897
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This is well and fairly expressed.

The issue is, is Madoka at this point an adult or not an adult? Within the context of the story, she is. Within the context of her conversation with her mother, her mother realizes that she is.
I don't think that's what this scene is trying to convey.

Junko letting Madoka go is, I think, meant to show that Junko has gained increased confidence in her daughter. Beyond that, I think it's to say to the audience that Madoka has gained important strength of character and purpose, and that we should support her and respect her for that just as Junko does.

But a person doesn't need to be an adult to gain the confidence of another, or to have strength of character and purpose.


Quote:
If Junko understands that her daughter is an adult, and trusts her when she says that only she can protect everyone now, then her decision is the right one.
Junko's decision is the right one, for the world, because of what ultimately comes of it.

I certainly won't deny that.


Quote:
I appreciate you find it unbelievable, in the context of real-life mothers, but I think here you are insisting that your own cultural context must be the standard by which we evaluate the anime.
No, not my cultural context. Japan's cultural context.

Every fictional work arises out of a certain cultural context, and will inevitably be measured against that cultural context and/or whatever the cultural context within the narrative itself is.

In Madoka Magica's case, the cultural context is modern Japan, or sometime in the near future of Japan (given some of the technology displayed in Madoka Magica).

Based on that, I find Junko's actions a bit hard to swallow.


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In other times and other places, fifteen year olds have had to shoulder all the burdens of adulthood. We do this regularly even in America today--as when we try juveniles as adults for serious crimes.
It's not just about Madoka's age. I'm an adult, and if I was in an evacuation shelter along with all of my family, and a very short distance away from a national disaster area, I can assure you that my parents would not agree with me walking into that. What loving family member would?

Junko's actions are simply not the actions that most concerned mothers would take if in her situation.


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Triple R, I think if you understand Madoka to be an adult at this moment,
She's not an adult at this moment. She's a fourteen year old girl.
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Old 2011-04-24, 13:52   Link #898
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Interesting theory. But the fact remains that we don't know either way. Its nature wasn't explained, and it should have been, since without WN we wouln't have any climax to begin with.
I feel like a broken record but, you know, by checking a bit of european lore here and there it is easy to conclude that WN IS the Many Witches of the past as one and many. Going by that folklore trivia and what the anime have shown, Madoka was able to defeat it not with just her raw power but also by reaching out the many witches and witches-would-be who made up WN whole.
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Old 2011-04-24, 14:01   Link #899
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I feel like a broken record but, you know, by checking a bit of european lore here and there it is easy to conclude that WN IS the Many Witches of the past as one and many. Going by that folklore trivia and what the anime have shown, Madoka was able to defeat it not with just her raw power but also by reaching out the many witches and witches-would-be who made up WN whole.
That's a nice theory, but it's still a theory becuse it wasn't explained in the narrative. Some times it's ok to let things to the viewer's interpretation, but not always, and definitely not when we're talking about the very element of the narrative that make possible the freaking climax of the story. Any half decent script writer would tell you that much.
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Old 2011-04-24, 14:03   Link #900
guuchan
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i'm rewatching this scene when junko pulled madoka, the subs says mom asked where madoka's going. madoka's reply according to the subs is "mama". i maxed my volume and replayed it again and again but it sounds more really like "homu". i maybe just having hearing problems, but if "homu" is correct then there might be a connection that madoka uttered that word when homu appeared on her window in tl4.

when the conversation ended with "arigatou mama". the mama is clearer than the first.
It's definitely "mama". If you want to compare it that way, she used "mama" quite a few times again afterwards in the same scene. As for the last one, it was like a whisper so the whole line's pace was faster.

P.S. If I remember correctly, no one in the show ever called Homura "homu".
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